The problem of suffering

Author: secularmerlin

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#31
Theweakeredge
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@secularmerlin
Your goal is to attract those who believe they can engage with the inciting question no? Which, most interestingly, would be theists.

As for my view - any being with plausible psychology - any being would most likely have a self-actualizing ego. Anything with a will to live, especially a being that has some sort of motivation to create, has to have this ego that appears naturally. Its a defensive mechanism against the notion that you as a being, as an individual don't matter - and its the core frame behind why humans have motivation. Seeing as most mythical interpretations of god have us modeled after him, it would make sense that most popular god's would have this psychology even moreso. 

Therefore that leads us to the obvious question, how would a human react to having unimaginable power? They would eventually abuse it - the historic and psychological precedent has long been set for such an occurrence. The fact that there is suffering only reinforces that view - my point is that, essentially, any god would abuse their power. This is why we have checks and balances, this is why we avoid things like monarchies - because people, in general, are corruptible. This is all assuming that this god starts out as "good" and not as some sort of fiendish being.

Specifically considering how the god of the bible reacts to Satan simply wanting the tyranny of heaven to end, I find the latter much more likely. Satan is literally an Iron Man villain, motivated by the deeds of his former boss... only to be dealt with by the metaphorical "children" of God. Reads to me like an Iron Man Villian don't know what to tell you, anywho, all of this says to me is that a god who is "all good" not only does not exist in the Abrahamic interpretation but is not likely to be the case, ever. That is my interpretation as an anti-theist
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#32
secularmerlin
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@Theweakeredge
Your goal is to attract those who believe they can engage with the inciting question no? 
No.
#33
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@secularmerlin
Birth Life Death....Including suffering......Such is what it is to be human.....That is the problem.


#34
ronjs
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@secularmerlin
Suffering and sorrow are not always totally negative, people who have suffered are most likely to change, some for the better and some for worse. People coming out of a comedy show are more likely to be the same as they were going in, whereas those coming out of a funeral are often changed by the experience because it reminds us of our own mortality. That in no way implies that suffering is an entirely good thing, i , for one hate to see people suffering especially children.
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#35
secularmerlin
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@ronjs
That in no way implies that suffering is an entirely good thing
Ok then is there some solution to the problem of (not good) suffering?
#36
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@secularmerlin
Because we are not the author of suffering. If it were up to us our children would not suffer.
Sure we are, for some of it. You take something from a four year old he's not supposed to have, and give him a swat on the butt, that is suffering for the child(notwithstanding that you probably can't swat a child these days, with the snowflake culture, but that's a different story) We make them go to the dentist, we make them get shots and blood draws.  

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#37
secularmerlin
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@janesix
I did not say we were not the author of the suffering of others. That notwithstanding however there is a lot of suffering which isnot the result of any human action. Natural disasters, disease, famine and parasites specifically evolved to attack human eyes.
#38
ebuc
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@secularmerlin
That notwithstanding however there is a lot of suffering which isnot the result of any human action. Natural disasters, disease, famine and parasites specifically evolved to attack human eyes.

Post #2.....Universe/God does not love, hate, or masturbate.

Attempting rational, logical common sense discourse with the irrational, illogical,  lack of common sense believers is a bit { a lot } like attempting to have rational, conversation with a drunk, at least with some issues.

Volcanoes blow and people suffer. tsunamis as result of earthquakes occur and people suffer, disease occurs and people suffer,  humans suffer and die from terminality of old age and all parts of Universe/God having decay rates.

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#39
secularmerlin
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@ebuc
lack of common sense believers is a bit { a lot } like attempting to have rational, conversation with a drunk,
Are you accusing me of poking the bear?



#40
ebuc
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@secularmerlin
Are you accusing me of poking the bear?
Ha ha Sec, not a bear,  and only semi-poking the relgious, semi-appearing drunkards ---drunk on dogma{?}---- and some false if not alot of false  
narrative.  Ive avoided that for some time but recently had difficulty from splashing religious concepts out of their narrow-minded bowl of mostly, false narrative belief system.

I understand it is their security blanket just as I have my cosmic truths security blanket.

3 three primary religions stem from patricarchal Bible ---what a shucker that is---, for most part.


#41
BrotherDThomas
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@fauxlaw


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FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin,

YOUR BIBLICAL IGNORANCE IS SHOWING ONCE AGAIN IN YOUR INEPT QUOTE IN POST #27:  "But, knowing the many physically harmful effects of smoking, with very little to recommend it, other than a brief enjoyment factor. As long as I choose to say, "no," my choices, and freedom, remain wide open. Once I decide to smoke, however, and continue, thus acquiring a physically addicting habit, my choices thereafter become limited. That's no longer freedom, is it?"

How many times do I have to biblically school you again in front of the membership?  You erroneously keep saying "my choices and freedom, remain wide open." Again you slap Jesus in the face with your alleged "choices," whereas even you being a pseudo-christian, Jesus determines what you will do from birth until your earthly demise, understand you Bible ignorant fool?!  

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)  Key word: PREDESTINED where Jesus’ Jewish creation have absolutely no free agency, aka, free will,  because Jesus as God predetermines what you will do in every little and great part of your life, understand simpleton Bible fool? Huh?

"The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the Lord." (Proverbs 16:33). Once again, you have no choices because Jesus controls your life completely, get it?

FAUXLAW, YOU ARE 100% GUILTY OF THIS INSPIRED BY JESUS VERSE:  "Only a simpleton would not know, and only a fool would not understand this:". (Psalm 92:6)



FAUXLAW, as continuously shown, your Bible ignorance and stupidity has no bounds within this esteemed Religion Forum, where you are an embarrassment to Christianity as a whole. Therefore, how can you remain here spewing forth your Devil Speak on a regular basis in giving this forum a bad reputation?  Can you answer this simple question, or are you going to RUN AWAY from this post again with further murmurs, blathering, and incoherent non-sequitur responses subsequent to be Bible Slapping you Silly®️ as shown in the following embarrassing link towards you: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5769-making-fun-of-religion?page=3&post_number=64


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#42
BrotherDThomas
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@fauxlaw


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FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin,

I made this quote in my post #2 within this thread:

"As you can readily see, it is tough in being a TRUE Christian in the 21st century to accept the above about my serial killer Jesus, whereas the pseudo-christians within this forum like the Bible inept PGA2.0, fauxlaw, Tradesecret, et al, DARE TO COME INTO YOUR THREAD, LET ALONE IN TRYING IN VAIN TO REFUTE  MY POST HEREIN, because if they do, they know outright that I will easily Bible Slap them Silly®️ in return, praise!"

Therefore, in my post #2, do you want to "try" and refute the biblical axioms of Jesus giving His JEWISH Creation cancer, and subsequently adding SUFFERING of this Jesus induced disease?  YES?  I promise you of another Bible Slapping you Silly®️ again, okay? SCARED to even "try" once again like your other runaways from my posts that are mounting at your expense within this forum? Huh?

REMEMBER, THE MEMBERSHIP IS WATCHING YOUR DECISION, WILL YOU RUN AWAY AGAIN, OR DEFEND THE FAITH LIKE JESUS TELLS YOU TO DO? (TITUS 1:9)

BEGIN:
#43
Polytheist-Witch
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If we are the center of our universe then we control our suffering if we even have it.  Why does a poor man seem to not be suffering but happy while a rich one whines and cries about everything. I think suffering is allowed by us. Not that things don't create suffering. They do but we should one, try to overcome our suffering and to try and help others who are suffering to not suffer. Love is the reason we are put in bodies to interact with each other in the first place. We should be easing the suffering of others as much as we can by loving them. Known or stranger. That is the core of the Golden Rule. But it's not always easy to do or allow ourselves to do. Our egos are always looking for ways to ignore others or let ourselves wallow.  I would never tell someone get over your suffering but try to help them overcome their suffering in ways I can. 

I think most people do this but sometimes we give up on people because they refuse to help themselves. A drug addict is suffering but a family might give up because they relapse over and over again. Until they choose to no longer suffer they continue to feed the ego and use drugs.  That is also why the best people to help recovering addicts is other recovering addicts. 
#44
fauxlaw
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poundmethomas has, once again, pounded too hard and too often. the pounder has no post #2. That one appears to be ebuc's. Oops.  Further, poundmethomas has not noticed I have not once mentioned the Bible in this string. And, yet...  Typical results of pounding. 
#45
BrotherDThomas
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@ronjs


Ron's,

YOUR WANTING QUOTE: "Suffering and sorrow are not always totally negative, people who have suffered are most likely to change, some for the better and some for worse."

Question to answer: Would you consider Jesus, as our serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, in killing His creation in the Great Flood because they were evil, and the subsequent suffering  of drowning, not negative?  Furthermore, since Jesus killed all of His JEWISH creation, how are they to likely change when they are DEAD?


One of many entities that is hard for me to accept pertaining to our supposed ever loving and forgiving Jesus, but in being a TRUE Christian, I have to accept, is the fact that Jesus watched (Hebrews 4:13, Proverbs 15:3) the drowning of  innocent zygotes and fetus', and where babies were suffering an horrific death of drowning as they cried out to their mothers.  Imagine Jesus looking down at these innocent babies drowning as their muscles burned due to large amounts of lactic acid production, where when they finally gave up in pain, they went under the waters and held their little breaths as acidic carbon dioxide eroded their lungs until the unbearable pain forced them to inhale. Subsequently to trying to breath underwater,  then they died a terrible and very painful death.

Question to answer:  Can Jesus still be considered to be ever loving and forgiving under this drastic Biblical axiom of His Great Flood as shown above?


Ronjs, awaiting a cogent response to the two questions above, and I thank you in advance.



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#46
BrotherDThomas
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@fauxlaw


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FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin,

YOUR RUNAWAY POST QUOTE AS USUAL: "poundmethomas has, once again, pounded too hard and too often. the pounder has no post #2. That one appears to be ebuc's. Oops.  Further, poundmethomas has not noticed I have not once mentioned the Bible in this string. And, yet...  Typical results of pounding."

Once again, you RUN AWAY from your JUDEO-Christian Bible, even as being a pseudo-christian LOL!   Listen up Bible fool, it matters not that you did not mention the Bible because you proffer that you have FREE WILL to begin with, whereas where did you get this notion?  The Sunday newspaper? A comic book? The dictionary? Another inept pseudo-christian like you told you? Where?  Remember, you are an alleged Christian that is to follow ALL, and I repeat,  ALL of the JUDEO-Christian Bible, understood Bible fool?   Therefore, tell us where you got this free will notion!   EXPLAIN:


At your flustering expense once again, I will add your meaningless non-sequitur post #44 to your ever growing list of RUN AWAYS from Jesus' true words directed to you by me, whereas this is the ONLY recognition of your existence within this forum as being the #1 RUNAWAY!


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#47
BrotherDThomas
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@fauxlaw



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FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin,

Whoops!  Your non sequitur post #44 within this thread is yet another RUNAWAY from the JUDEO-Christian Bible, whether you mentioned it or not, as we expected you to do to "try" and save what face you have left within this forum!  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5849/post-links/254954


1. You can't address my post #2 within this thread, therefore at your embarrassing expense, just say so, okay?

2. Just admit your total and complete Bible stupidity and ignorance to the membership, and in this way, you will be free of further egg upon your face  when you just accept your Satanic limitations, don't you understand this simple premise?  

3. If you can't accept your total Bible ignorance, and want to further it along by "trying" to address my posts to you in a childish non sequitur manner, then why do you make it so easy for me to outright own you and your faith in front of the membership?


Now, what I want you to do to prove my points above, is to either remain silent to this post, or post another non sequitur statement like you have done before when I have easily Bible Slapped you Silly®️ as shown in the link below, okay?  Thanking you in advance! LOL


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#48
Tarik
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@Theweakeredge
I used to be one, who believed in the trifecta god
I don’t remember you ever sharing this with us before, so (I know it’s no longer the case) what made you a believer in the first place?
#49
Theweakeredge
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@Tarik
Huh, thought I had - I was raised a baptist, I was a youth leader, did the whole bible camp, I even gave lectures/preached to the younger congregation. I was pretty into the bible thing for a while.
#50
Stephen
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@BrotherDThomas
YOUR BIBLICAL IGNORANCE IS SHOWING ONCE AGAIN IN YOUR INEPT QUOTE IN POST #27:  "But, knowing the many physically harmful effects of smoking, with very little to recommend it, other than a brief enjoyment factor. As long as I choose to say, "no," my choices, and freedom, remain wide open. Once I decide to smoke, however, and continue, thus acquiring a physically addicting habit, my choices thereafter become limited. That's no longer freedom, is it?"

How many times do I have to biblically school you again in front of the membership?  You erroneously keep saying "my choices and freedom, remain wide open." Again you slap Jesus in the face with your alleged "choices," whereas even you being a pseudo-christian, Jesus determines what you will do from birth until your earthly demise, understand you Bible ignorant fool?!  

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)  Key word: PREDESTINED where Jesus’ Jewish creation have absolutely no free agency, aka, free will,  because Jesus as God predetermines what you will do in every little and great part of your life, understand simpleton Bible fool? Huh?

"The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the Lord." (Proverbs 16:33). Once again, you have no choices because Jesus controls your life completely, get it?

FAUXLAW, YOU ARE 100% GUILTY OF THIS INSPIRED BY JESUS VERSE:  "Only a simpleton would not know, and only a fool would not understand this:". (Psalm 92:6)


Not too difficult to do though, is it Brother.
#51
Stephen
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@Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge wrote: I used to be one, who believed in the trifecta god
@Tarik wrote: I don’t remember you ever sharing this with us before, so (I know it’s no longer the case) what made you a believer in the first place?


Theweakeredge wrote: Huh, thought I had - I was raised a baptist, I was a youth leader, did the whole bible camp, I even gave lectures/preached to the younger congregation. I was pretty into the bible thing for a while.

And what is your position now. Are you still a member any `flock `? 

  • I noticed that you missed the question Tarik asked you "  what made you a believer in the first place?"  Do you have a reply for this question, I too would be interested  in what made you a believer in the first place?

#52
Tarik
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@Theweakeredge
Mind telling me about your journey or should I say transition to atheism? Because that’s a huge paradigm shift in thinking and I’ll be interested if you were willing to give some background information (maybe in another forum perhaps) does it have something to do along the lines of your homosexuality and when you realized you were homosexual? Because I guess I can somewhat understand feeling distant from religion if you feel it’s not accepting of who you are.
#53
ronjs
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@secularmerlin
The only solution i know of is supernatural , so it would be rejected by many atheists.
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#54
secularmerlin
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@ronjs
The only solution i know of is supernatural , so it would be rejected by many atheists.
I don't feel like the supernatural, provided it existed, actually would solve the problem. I don't know your personal preferred definition of supernatural but I think when you say you have a solution and the solution is "it's magic" you have more pushed the question back a step rather than answering it.
#55
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@Stephen
@Tarik
Stephen you know I'm an atheist - or you look at my profile which is very clear about my position - I'm an atheist and an anti-theist. Furthermore, it was quite obvious "how" I became Christian, I was raised one, as most people are in the United States. 

Tarik - I did not discover I wasn't straight until after I had been an atheist for a year or so, so my own personal coming out there didn't really influence my position about Christianity. However, the entire "homosexuals are abominations" to the lord made me extremely uncomfortable and eventually quite angry. Why were these people being isolated by the bible, and not rapists, or slave handlers? No, the "abominations" were innocent people who happened to feel uncontrollable attraction towards their same gender, and what was wrong with it. It was one of the first cracks in the facade that was Christianity. Next was really the fact that ANYBODY could ask for forgiveness and get it as long as they were "sincere".  A woman who was good but simply refused to be Christian went to hell, but a rapist who was sincere in apology went to heaven? The injustice was fervent in my mind, and I began to slowly doubt my axioms.

I believed I was being hasty however, sure, maybe these few things weren't quite right, but that didn't mean that god was evil or anything like that. So I read my bible, intensely. Cover to cover a couple of times, taking extensive notes and writings, and yeah that allowed me to come to the conclusion that god was bullshit. After that I sought out philosophical education, and I became less and less enamored with the idea of religion, slowly adopting the positions I now hold


#56
Polytheist-Witch
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If you ask most people raised in a very religious environment they almost always say they never really believed they just lived the faith until it came a time they knew they couldn't keep doing that because the belief wasn't there. 
#57
Tarik
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@Theweakeredge
Although I disagree with a lot that you said I was given some clarity in regards to your position so I thank you for that.
#58
Theweakeredge
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@Polytheist-Witch
And I'll tell you I did believe, pretty hard too, I would say that's a broad statement that doesn't account for most - an anecdote at best

How ironic that it would loop there. 
#59
Stephen
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@Theweakeredge

Stephen you know I'm an atheist

Ah yes. I had to apologise to you for having you down as a christian. 



However, the entire "homosexuals are abominations" to the lord made me extremely uncomfortable and eventually quite angry.
"Both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death". Leviticus 20:13

Well at least you have been able to see that it is not  only homosexual  "acts and practices" that are an "abomination to the Lord"  but homosexuals too. There are many backpedaling  apologetic Christians on this forum that attempt to separate the two in desperation to prove their god to be a loving and caring god.


Why were these people being isolated by the bible,

They are isolated by God in the bible and in turn, by many devout Christians. Then again, you already know that there is a Pastor, Chaplin here that believes  "the bible cannot cause anything"! #3  don't you.


No, the "abominations" were innocent people who happened to feel uncontrollable attraction towards their same gender, and what was wrong with it.

And created by the perfect hands of god to perfection if we are expected to believe what is written in the bible.   But Christians will deny even this while ignoring the fact the the bible makes it  clear on many occasions that god created " all things" :  " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" . Isaiah 45:7 King James Version;  John 1:3  All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.


 Next was really the fact that ANYBODY could ask for forgiveness and get it as long as they were "sincere". [.......................................]and yeah that allowed me to come to the conclusion that god was bullshit.

Indeed. One can go to heaven for committing all types of "sin" with the exception of being a homosexual and blasphemy I believe-  Leviticus 24:16. So it looks like you are going to cop a double dose there, doesn't it.

On my thread concerning the recent comments by the  Pope and  homosexuality I wrote :

The document went on to say that “God does not and cannot bless sin”, adding: “He blesses sinful man, so that he may recognise that he is part of his plan of love and allow him to be changed by him.”https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/catholic-church-cannot-bless-same-sex-unions-vatican-decrees

Interesting it is  that the Pope tells us  "he blessed the sinful man" while Leviticus tells us this particular kind of "sinful man" should be put to death.  #10


This too was a bit of backpedaling apologetics by the leader of the Catholic Church.
I wasn't surprised when my  thread didn't attract any devout Christians.https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5818-no-blessing-for-same-sex-marriages




#60
BrotherDThomas
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@Stephen
@fauxlaw



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Stephen,

YOUR QUOTE RELATIVE TO THE EVER SO STUPID AND BIBLE IGNORANT FAUXLAW IN SLAPPING JESUS IN THE FACE AGAIN: "Not too difficult to do though, is it Brother."

It is NOT difficult at all to easily show in how truly dumbfounded of the Bible FAUXLAW is in their pathetic post #27 within this thread relative to him allegedly having "Free Agency," aka, FREE WILL,  as shown in my posts numbers 41, 42, 46, and 47!  When dealing with FAUXLAW's Bible inept presence, and therefore being the number one BIBLE FOOL and in being the number one BIBLE RUNAWAY as well, where like I've said before, it is like shooting fish in a barrel! 

What is sad, and an embarrassment to Jesus and this prestigious forum, is the FACT that FAUXLAW doesn't have the sense to be embarrassed about his total Bible stupidity, and therefore he seemingly flaunts it before the membership at this esteemed forum's expense.  Here I thought the MIA's Tradesecret, ethang5,  Bringerofrain, Benjamin, et al, were disgraceful to Jesus' true words within the scriptures, but FAUXLAW takes the proverbial cake! 

In my direct posts #46 and #47 above to FAUXLAW, lets see if he can address them with the requests that I have given, where if he doesn't, he admits that he is the blatant Bible fool that he is, period!  


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