The problem of suffering

Author: secularmerlin

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#1
secularmerlin
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Undeniably many people suffer and it appears to be a given that some people suffer in ways they do not necessarilly deserve. Just as clearly not all suffering is the direct result of human actions. 

That in mind and most especially if you believe in some god(s) that can be defined as both all powerful and also loves us all how do you resolve the problem of suffering?
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@secularmerlin
...... if you believe in some god(s) that can be defined as both all powerful and also loves us all how do you resolve the problem of suffering?...
Universe/God does not love, hate, or masturbate.

Attempting rational, logical common sense discourse with the irrational, illogical,  lack of common sense believers is a bit { a lot } like attempting to have rational, conversation with a drunk, at least with some issues.

Volcanoes blow and people suffer. tsunamis as result of earthquakes occur and people suffer, disease occurs and people suffer,  humans suffer and die from terminality of old age and all parts of Universe/God having decay rates.








#3
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@secularmerlin
@PGA2.0
@Tradesecret
@fauxlaw


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secularmerlin,

One of the main reasons that I am the ONLY True Christian upon this esteemed Religion forum, is the fact that I accept ALL, and I repeat, ALL of what my serial killer Jesus' modus operandi is and does, praise!


To address your proposition regarding suffering and Christianity, and by using the topic of cancer only in this respect, Jesus as the Hebrew God ONLY controls who and who does not get this terrible cancer  disease and then the suffering of same.

1. The ever loving and forgiving Jesus has the power to bring illness of cancer to His Jewish creation while they suffer from it, or to remove it from happening: 
"The LORD will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you." (Deuteronomy 7:15)

2. Since ALL things were created through Jesus, and for Him, then when Jesus created and allows cancer to be inflicted upon His Jewish creation, then the suffering of same is from Jesus:  "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him." (Colossians 1:16 )

3. When Jesus gives cancer to His Jewish creation, He and only He can either shorten or lengthen the life of the person He gave it too while said person suffers:.
“Naked I came from my mother’s womb, And naked I shall return there. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” (Job 1:21)
"He has broken my strength in the way; He has shortened my days." (Psalms 102:23)

4. Jesus CONTROLS EVERYTHING, therefore He controls the cancer that He has given to His Jewish Creation while they suffer from it: 
"Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails." (Psalm 19:21)

5. When a Jewish only Christian has the lot cast into his lap of Jesus giving them a  cancer prognosis and suffers because of it, the decision outcome is from the ever loving and forgiving  Lord Jesus the Christ :
“The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the LORD.” (Proverbs 16:33)


As you can readily see, it is tough in being a TRUE Christian in the 21st century to accept the above about my serial killer Jesus, whereas the pseudo-christians within this forum like the Bible inept PGA2.0, fauxlaw, Tradesecret, et al, DARE TO COME INTO YOUR THREAD, LET ALONE IN TRYING IN VAIN TO REFUTE  MY POST HEREIN, because if they do, they know outright that I will easily Bible Slap them Silly®️ in return, praise!


.






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Oh Lord wont you buy me a Jesus ink pen. Oh Lord wont you praise me, for  the others who sin.

Oh Lord why have you forgotten, all that is Zen? Oh Lord wont you praise me, for now and then.

Oh Lord why are you lying to all humen? Oh Lord wont your praise me, for  dickin your hen.

Oh Lord, why are you hiding, in your man cave den? Oh Lord wont you praise me, for finding the end.
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@secularmerlin
 especially if you believe in some god(s) that can be defined as both all powerful and also loves us all how do you resolve the problem of suffering?

Interesting question. I can't see many tripping over themselves to defend  god and his actions, to be honest.


"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7  King James Version.

At least "god" can throw his hands up and admit to creating all things , including suffering and those things that cause suffering.

I await the cries of "CONTEXT"!!!  and of being reminded that one simply cannot understand gods admission of guilt unless one is a "student of  ancient Greek"  .

 I fear this thread will die a death very quickly.



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@secularmerlin
As someone who's spoken with a LOOT of theists, and I used to be one, who believed in the trifecta god (all powerful, all knowing, and all good) People will usually argue that; "Its all because Human's have free-will, its all their fault? You don't want us to be robots do you?" Now - I think the argument is incredibly flawed (I mean I could get into the whole: heaven is good and we have free will there, but he can't do it for pre-snake earth?) but I won't get into toooo specific of details. Just wanted to put this here because I don't see any Christians coming to actually defend their god.
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@ebuc
Attempting rational, logical common sense discourse with the irrational, illogical,  lack of common sense believers is a bit { a lot } like attempting to have rational, conversation with a drunk, at least with some issues.

A+1
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@Stephen
A+1
So that means I'm A1 on your list?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh Lord wont you buy me a Jesus ink pen. Oh Lord wont you praise me, for  the others who sin.

Oh Lord why have you forgotten, all that is Zen? Oh Lord wont you praise me, for now and then.

Oh Lord, why are you lying, to all humen? Oh Lord wont your praise me, for  dickin your hen.

Oh Lord, why are you hiding, in your man cave den? Oh Lord wont you praise me, for finding the end.

#9
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@secularmerlin
Suffering occurs because there must be opposition in all things, and that is because God allows our free agency, even when that agency will allow that some will abuse others. thinking they deserve more, are entitled to more, or are simply willing to take more than is rightfully theirs. Counter to that cause of grief is the atonement of Christ, which will ultimately restore all that is lost by everyone who ever lived on Earth, and from those who took unrighteously will be taken from them what was given, unless they repent, and, themselves, by so doing, absolve themselves from the commission of their sins, particularly those committed against others.
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@secularmerlin
It's just part of life. Life  feeds off life, suffering is a part of that. Don't know why God made things that way. But I am also aware that most people who bring children into the world do it knowing full well the child will suffer at some points in life. And we love them, but do it anyway. Why?
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@janesix
It's just part of life.

Remove "god" and that is the reality.
#12
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@Stephen
God IS reality.
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@janesix
@Stephen
Remove "god" and that is the reality.
God = Universe ergo God is the trinary set of three cosmic phenomena;

1} Gravity (  ) ---attractive--- aka  the outer limits

2} Observed Time reality { quanta collective } ---attractive and repulsive charges--- aka the happy medium,

3} Dark Energy )( ---radiative---- aka the inner limits.






#14
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@secularmerlin
a standard answer is that the underlying definition of God as "loving" should not be seen through a human filter. When a parent punishes a child, or a doctor gives a child a shot, each is expressing care and "love" but not in a way that the child understands or would call "love." Suffering, if seen as something different (much like a shot, or a punishment) can be reconciled with (and, in fact, presented as a necessary function of) the idea of God's loving people.
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@fauxlaw
God allows our free agency, 
Does this hypothetical god allow us free agency in heaven?
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@janesix
I am also aware that most people who bring children into the world do it knowing full well the child will suffer at some points in life. And we love them, but do it anyway. Why?
Because we are not the author of suffering. If it were up to us our children would not suffer.
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@rosends
Ok in that case what practical good (like a shot) dies suffering bring about?
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@Theweakeredge
Thank you both for building strawmen for us to tear down together but I think I will just stick to discussing actual arguments.
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@secularmerlin
So you're saying that the free will argument isn't one used by the popular Christian? Because I disagree and laugh at that assertion bud. I am presenting a theocracy, whether you want to acknowledge it or not
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@secularmerlin
That's a fine question. I will give 2 types of answers (and I can't vouch for the satisfying-ness of either one):

1. The "there is a bigger plan" answer. Suffering is necessary because of some larger goal or aim which we, as humans are not aware of.
2. The "punish you now" answer. If one is subject to suffering now, then his bad deeds will have been paid off before death and the soul will not be subject to any suffering later.
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@secularmerlin
Free agency is not a finite gift. Our reaction to it, however, will ultimately change to always making correct choices. In such a fashion, more will always be available to us as options because it is by continuous correct choices that our horizon remains wide open. It is by incorrect choices that we cause limitations; something we are not meant to have to endure.
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@Theweakeredge
So you're saying that the free will argument isn't one used by the popular Christian? 
No. I am saying that it is immaterial if it is not YOUR argument. I would be much more interested in YOUR ACTUAL argument. 
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@rosends
1. Unsatisfying. A plan we cannot comprehend or ask the planner questions about directly is indistinguishable from no plan whatever. I feel anything beyond human epistemology is not a good basis for any sound argument. 

2 more satisfying as at least some actual goal is being proposed but also beyond our epistemology and so it gives us no basis for sound argument.

Also satisfaction will vary between users.
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@fauxlaw
Free agency is not a finite gift. Our reaction to it, however, will ultimately change to always making correct choices. 
Please explain the detectable and practical difference between necessarily making the "correct" choice and not actually exercising any choice whatever? Your free will sounds very like no freedom to me.
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@secularmerlin
A baby lacks the vocabulary to discuss immunology with a doctor. This does not mean that the doctor has no over arching plan which justifies inflicting pain on the baby.

Both answers are predicated on faith. Neither can be proven. If that is a required element of the conversation then this will go no where. This is why I find the notion of "debating" about religious points to be fruitless as the baseline positions are too different.
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@rosends
A baby lacks the vocabulary to discuss immunology with a doctor. This does not mean that the doctor has no over arching plan which justifies inflicting pain on the baby.
Which makes any discussion of virology between babies necessarily nonproductive. A baby would perceive a "bad" shot no differently than a "good" shot therefore it is unreasonable for any baby to claim to another baby that the shots they were receiving were for a good purpose. 
Both answers are predicated on faith. Neither can be proven.
Well stated.

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@secularmerlin
By making no choice, we remain on the fence, or, by another metaphor, tread water, or worse, allow the current to take us from where we desire to be, which amounts to an incorrect choice, and limitation of freedom. The choice not to choose to jump from the fence is, itself, limiting choice and freedom.

The correct choice is to jump from the fence and get moving. The direction we choose to move is the indication of making another incorrect or correct choice; or, let the stream carry us wherever it will take us, or swim agains the current to achieve our desired destination.

The determining factor of making the incorrect or correct choice is that incorrect choices always limit our potential. For example. I chose as a child to never smoke. Thus I am always free to change that choice, allowing me the full scope of freedom for that choice. But, knowing the many physically harmful effects of smoking, with very little to recommend it, other than a brief enjoyment factor. As long as I choose to say, "no," my choices, and freedom, remain wide open. Once I decide to smoke, however, and continue, thus acquiring a physically addicting habit, my choices thereafter become limited. That's no longer freedom, is it?
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#28
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@fauxlaw
By making no choice, we remain on the fence, or, by another metaphor, tread water, or worse, allow the current to take us from where we desire to be,
These are all defacto choices. 
#29
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@secularmerlin
That was me suggesting the "best" argument I could have given as a Christian - I don't think any god can be justified as... just in our current universe.  Especially as an anti-theist.

Plus - given some engagement could help this thread get some attention
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@Theweakeredge
That was me suggesting the "best" argument I could have given as a Christian - I don't think any god can be justified as... just in our current universe.  Especially as an anti-theist.
I am far more interested in your insights as an anti theist if that is how you self identify.
Plus - given some engagement could help this thread get some attention
I think you have misunderstood my goals.