Are incel's right?

Author: Bringerofrain
Incel
redpill
haes
fatphobia

Posts

Total: 20
Topic's author
#1
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
I have been wondering lately about genetic superiority. I is clear that some people are genetically superior to others. This is to be differentiated from moral superiority or self worth. I think in the eyes of God, I am equal to all of you. In the eyes of the law I may even be a bit superior to all of you, considering my status as a white male. 

However I am certainly genetically inferior to most of you. I have a genetic disorder that means I have to use voice to text 50% of the time on this site. It also means I will probably be dead within the next few years. Please don't PM me asking for specifics. I am open about some of my struggles, but some things I want to avoid talking about.

You guys are genetically superior to me, for the most part I assume. Do we ignore the fact that most incel's are correct. They are genetically inferior to a lot of men as well and will struggle to get laid. It used to be when early marriage and monogamy was forced on people that those who are called incel's today could have lead a happy life with a good wife and some kids. Now these guys have become genetic dead ends. Were they failed by society? Sure female agency is a good thing, but was the cost of female agency something that resulted in a large portion of males who ended up genetic dead ends?

On the surface we may,so what? They can't get laid, you can still be happy and not have sex or have a significant other. I agree with this, but the fact is when we have a bunch of young men, with a very bleak picture of the future, we usually get a lot of crime and social disorder. It would be a similar result as to what happens in heavily polygamous societies. 

What about the other side of the coin. Some women are genetically inferior because they put on weight easier than others. Perhaps they have a genetic disorder that makes weight gain easy, perhaps their genetics mean they have a huge appetite. I am a bit overweight myself. I can emphasize, but we see a push back by these women where they demand to be seen as attractive and demand others ignore their genetic inferiority. What will be the result of a society where a bunch of women are treated merely as "slump busters" and a bunch of men cannot have sex at all? 

Perhaps the HAES advocates are right. Society was more stable when the government and social standards intervened to get these incel's from the 50s laid. (I acknowledge that the stability came at the cost of equality). Perhaps we should also as a society push to change beauty standards as well, so that way we can encourage some social stability. 

Just my thoughts on the results of ignoring that genetic superiority is a real thing. People are genetically superior to me and society has helped me bridge that gap with the americans with disabilities act. Should society save other genetically inferior people to avoid social decay such as HAES advocates and INCELs






#2
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,594
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Bringerofrain

This is why prostitution should be legalized in all states. Right now, Nevada is the only state in the country to legalize prostitution. Legal brothels exist in 10 of Nevada's 17 counties. If you can't afford a prostitue, welfare should pay for it. Wouldn't you like to live like Jeffery Epstein? He never had a wife or girlfriends, just prostitutes.


Topic's author
#3
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
-->
@FLRW
I was going to ask that as well. Like prostitution covered by medical insurance for incel's.
Topic's author
#4
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
Also have to answer the question of whether I would like to live like epstein as a no. He was a Chomo
#5
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Bringerofrain
[It] is clear that some people are genetically superior to others.
There's no doubt that nature has its hierarchies but I'm skeptical that science has a good handle on what you call genetic superiority.  Is there any measure of "genetic superiority" that would identify Stephen Hawking as superior and since the answer is obviously no, shouldn't we question the calibration of our instruments?

You guys are genetically superior to me, for the most part I assume.
Skeptical again.

It used to be when early marriage and monogamy was forced on people that those who are called incel's today could have lead a happy life with a good wife and some kids.
But that was ultimately a bad thing, right?  If we accept genetically inferior (I don't), then prioritizing inferior genes for reasons of social privilege weakens the species.

Now these guys have become genetic dead ends. Were they failed by society?
Traditionally, societies funneled these dead ends into hunting, herding, mining, armies, prisons, etc.  As we strive for an improved society, we scaled down a lot of human institutions that traditionally mulched the INCEL types at a young age.  Perhaps society failed the INCELs but almost certainly to the net benefit of society overall.

Sure female agency is a good thing, but was the cost of female agency something that resulted in a large portion of males who ended up genetic dead ends?
...and if INCELs were the cost for the good thing called female agency, wouldn't that be a relatively cheap price to pay?

Some women are genetically inferior because they put on weight easier than others.
That's just false. Modern America holds to an extreme and new conception of body type based on artificially stimulated demand (overfeed the market so that you can sell them diets, exercise programs, antacids, liposuction, etc).  Until the present moment, weight gain was a genetically superior adaptation for baby making.

we see a push back by these women where they demand to be seen as attractive and demand others ignore their genetic inferiority. What will be the result of a society where a bunch of women are treated merely as "slump busters" and a bunch of men cannot have sex at all? 
I think this dynamic undermines the INCELs primary argument.  INCELs insist that are denied fuckable women in an age profoundly influenced by a commercially manufactured (as opposed to a natural) conception of fuckability.  It's not about genetic inferiority: the INCEL's standard is too high. Human societies have always featured a bunch of women that are merely treated as slump busters, more's the pity.  Feminism decreases the size of that bunch.  Socially intelligent men acknowledge that feminism makes women more fuckable, not less.

Society was more stable when the government and social standards intervened to get these incel's from the 50s laid. (I acknowledge that the stability came at the cost of equality).
If you are saying that marriage was more stable in the 1950s- then that is the opposite of true.  A greater percentage of Americans got married in the 50's than in any other decade in history but a greater percentage of Americans who married in the 50's got divorced than any other decade or society in history.  People who got married in the 50's represented the majority of divorces across three decades- the 50's, 60's, and 70's.  Marriages from the 50's were the most divorce prone in human history.  Essentially, the expected roles of women in a marriage changed dramatically after WW2 and a large number of women found it necessary to break their prior agreements before they could enjoy the benefit of new opportunities.

Should society save other genetically inferior people to avoid social decay such as HAES advocates and INCELs
I don't buy your premise.  Still, let's agree that societies should always work to keep members alive ("save") but present society requires a dramatic reduction in population anyway.  Less breeding by the least successful seems like a positive advantage to all.








Topic's author
#6
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
-->
@oromagi
You raise a ton of great points. I'll dive into the very few that I disagree with in a bit. 


and if INCELs were the cost for the good thing called female agency, wouldn't that be a relatively cheap price to pay?

That depends. I have seen a lot of suggestions that women are happier when they are married and in a happy monogamous marriage then they are when being promiscuous. I have also seen that the more sexual partners a person has than the less they are able to connect and feel for their partners. 

If these things are true, than you t is a choice between providing them agency or happiness and that is a more philosophical question. 

Your statistic about divorce rates makes me wonder about the happiness of women in monogamous relationships though, so I'll need to dig into that stuff. 

I'll get to the rest of your answers later, but it reminds me of a story that when the ight about disproves freedom/agency.

Like a fish you keep in a small bowl, if you free him by breaking the bowl he does. Or a bird you keep in a cage, but when you open it he flies into a window and dies. This type of freedom even if the fish or bird asked you for it, may be unethical to provide. So if this is a question of female agency vs happiness than the answer is not so clear cut.






Topic's author
#7
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
I would call stephen hawking genetically inferior, because I am looking at it in terms of how much you benefit personally from your genetic makeup. If we are looking at it from who benefits society the most than we would consider hawking superior to almost everyone who has ever existed . 

So we are probably defining it differently. You probably think of genetic fitness in terms of benefit to society, I would see it from a more selfish stand point

Topic's author
#8
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
I disagree that incel's are denied fuckable women. Most of the ones I have talked to claim they will literally fuck anyone. Women have higher standards for a partner than men do. So a woman who is a 2 on the beauty scale will not fuck a man below a 5 and a man who is a 2 would be willing to also fuck a 2 for the most part. Women have unreasonably high standards for themselves. There is certainly unfair beauty standards that are self imposed as well as media imposed, but a lot of men just have no standards and will fuck anything that looks their way. 
Topic's author
#9
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
Traditionally, societies funneled these dead ends into hunting, herding, mining, armies, prisons, etc.  As we strive for an improved society, we scaled down a lot of human institutions that traditionally mulched the INCEL types at a young age.  Perhaps society failed the INCELs but almost certainly to the net benefit of society overall.
That is an incredible argument for why we shouldn't overly concern ourselves with the fate of incel's.although when I look at the men in polygamous societies, it does make me fear that a large amount of incel's could cause some bad waves of violence. 
#10
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Bringerofrain
I have nearly no ability to truly understand your day-to-day. The closest that comes to it is my own oldest brother, who had ALS, and endured a rare long time of 16 years with it, gradually declining in ability of motor function, and speaking. I am now older than he was when he graciously passed away, and he remains the most intelligent and wise person I ever knew. His favorite volume other than scripture was his copy of Plato's Republic, which he doubled in size due to volumes of notes in the margins of each page, and then separate slips of paper with notes, front and back, in between virtually each printed page. I insisted he be granted the right to have it clutched in his hand in his coffin. The other was a good friend in my neighborhood who I visited frequently, once discovering he shared many of my interests. He too suffered ALS, and was gone in 3 years from his initial diagnosis. I was able to dismiss consideration as a matter of personal pity due to their infliction because in both cases, their minds remained sharp as tacks. I believe the value of people is what they retain, unseen in mortality, and take with them beyond this mortal coil; when perfection will attend them as surely as anyone not so physically challenged in mortality. This brief session in mortality has so much glory awaiting its finality; my brother runs through fields of wildflowers of colors we can only imagine now. I weep for my lack of it, for now.
Topic's author
#11
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
-->
@fauxlaw
. I believe the value of people is what they retain, unseen in mortality, and take with them beyond this mortal coil; when perfection will attend them as surely as anyone not so physically challenged in mortality. This brief session in mortality has so much glory awaiting its finality; my brother runs through fields of wildflowers of colors we can only imagine now. I weep for my lack of it, for now.
I no longer fear death for the same reason. I call myself a hermeticism because nobody knows what neoplatonism is, but me and your brother may have very similar beliefs. That book of plato with the annotations would probably be a gold mine of knowledge. 

I seek perfection in hopes it will bring me closer to God, although I know I fall extremely short. I have a lot to learn. 


I am sorry about your loss. It must be hard to have such a wonderful person out of your life. My dad was terrible LOL and it still leaves a hole in my heart that he is gone, so how much more it must pain you to lose a great person so close

#12
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Bringerofrain
book of plato with the annotations would probably be a gold mine of knowledge.
It was. I had frequent access to it. I still wonder why I insisted on it being buried with him because I don't believe he is in the grave where it is deposited, and I've often wished since I could consult it. I just felt his body should retain possession, so, my loss, and anyone else's who would have wanted it. His wife and children agreed with my request. Besides, now, I believe, my brother has access to Plato, himself. What could be better? The most versatile hermeticist I now of is W.B. Yeats, whose poetry thrills me with each reading. I've even composed a historic fiction [unpublished as yet] involving Yeats and his long association with a women who declined some 20 proposals of marriage to him, yet she loved him desperately. Just the true story is fascinating enough. mine is, I hope, more so.  Hermeticism figures prominently in the story as I did some extensive research on the subject.
#13
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,594
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Bringerofrain
Also have to answer the question of whether I would like to live like epstein as a no. He was a Chomo
“I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy,” Trump told New York Magazine that year for a story headlined “Jeffrey Epstein: International Moneyman of Mystery.” “He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life.”



Topic's author
#14
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
-->
@fauxlaw
I wish I could go into detail about hermeticism here since many people are curious, but unfortunately I am at the beginning of my journey to understand it., And would likely give them terrible insight, though I know I have found my spiritual home. 
#15
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
What I've learned from Yeats, mostly by his poetry, is that heremticism is a fascinating study, which interests me, too, but I admit that I am constantly comparing ideas presented as they appear to differ from Christianity, but then find, by surprise, by digging deeper, that the similarities are there, just a different approach than I am used to.
#16
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@Bringerofrain
This brings a very obvious conflict of priorities, the agency of women versus the "genetic ending of men"... the second means nothing to me - it does not, in any capacity, affect how a man would live there life, and the potential future generations do not have any moral value, else every sperm would have moral value, and that is blatantly absurd. The problem I have here is your definition of "inferior" you have genes that make your life much more challenging and fatal, certainly, but to label something "inferior" there must necessarily be something which is "superior" and above that something which is the "most superior". 

The fact that your genetics makes your life harder to live does not make them inferior to my genes, or Sumihugme's genes, it means that those genes are less suited for long term survival, which tells us nothing about the moral "value" of such genes. Do you mean that your genes are not as good at surviving as our genes? Sure, but I fail to see how that makes them inferior, that would be enabling rhetoric that is inherently flawed, aka Eugenics. Or in this case, Degenics. Polyamory is a common solution to this problem, as it is actually more suitable for how the human experiences love and relationships.

Modern monogamy and the dogmatics of marriage have made this seem "unappealing" or worthless, hence the objectification of women and the rejection of prostitution. To people who would objectify women, it seems as if women are objectifying themselves on purpose; however, that is certainly not true. Just a fireman uses their strength to put out fires, prostitutes use their sexuality to service others. I see no fault in it as long as there is MUTUAL CONSENT. That means that if a prostitute suddenly says no, that means no. Just like if a fireman were to not want to go on a mission, they would not go - because they are putting their lives on the line.

Prostitutes are putting their agency and sexuality on the line, they should therefore have complete consent on everything. That is the only way to stop the objectification of them.

That was a ramble, essentially I disagree with the notion that Incels are "right"
Topic's author
#17
Bringerofrain
Bringerofrain's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 516
3
4
7
Bringerofrain's avatar
Bringerofrain
3
4
7
-->
@Theweakeredge
 Do you mean that your genes are not as good at surviving as our genes? Sure, but I fail to see how that makes them inferior, that would be enabling rhetoric that is inherently flawed, aka Eugenics. Or in this case, Degenics
Yes inferior in that respect. I disagree with playing the euphemism game though. If I am getting fat, I would rather somebody tell me "hey you look like a pig, cut back on the sugar fatty" than somebody say something like "you put on some healthy wait, nothing wrong with that". 

Some of that ramble is hard to respond to, but I read it.


#18
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Bringerofrain
I'm not really familiar with the term Incel, though I've 'heard it mentioned numerous times before, never really looked into it much.
But I take it that Incels are 'averagely unattractive men, with averagely poor social skills?
Doesn't 'really sound like it prevents them from having relationships if they 'wanted to have relationships to me. Even for the 'really ugly ones, still don't look like
 Joseph Merrick (The Elephant Man) I imagine.

Speaking of people with genetic differences,
Chang and Eng Bunker got married, had kids. Conjoined Twin brothers
Petrus Gonsalvus got married, had kids. Looked like the wolfman

Though maybe I'm thinking about tiny number of success stories. And committing fallacy by missing wide number of failed attempts by people.
I'll at least admit it people of worse looks or social skills have a harder slope to climb maybe.
But the world is large, and our ability to transverse it greatly improved.
'Sounds achievable to me.

Besides, genetic inferiority claim similar to how useful a tool is claim. Dependent on context.
Ancient Sparta genetic inferiority "Oh No!"
Current America, "eh."
Though of course some people are impaired 'severely.

Should society save other genetically inferior people to avoid social decay such as HAES advocates and INCELs?
If society cares about the people and itself, it should see to it that people who suffer 'severe difficulties get help. Doesn't matter if they don't have any legs or are mentally unstable.
Sports team runs better if you 'help teammates who are struggling, rather than leave them in dust, rather than purely work individually.

I 'do get wary of 'too much government though.

And a person may not always be 'much interested in teamwork.

Is a case for requiring a 'certain amount of ability shown by the people helped, I'd figure though.
If someone was severely mentally retarded, to the point they didn't understand sex, or could barely talk, doesn't make much sense to 'help them/force them/trick them, into having kids.
Not really great 'genetically for human race I'd think, if people whose genetics are thought inferior keep adding to it.
But maybe I'm a bigot.
Rambling.

I'm sure I'm genetically inferior to an Eskimo for the task of living in Alaska pre modern era.
#19
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
Maybe I am an incel alone, but what beliefs do incels hold, according to you guys?


#20
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
Dunno, I looked up the definition on Google and Wikipedia, was hoping someone would define it more.