The great deception of claiming some great deception

Author: secularmerlin

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#1
secularmerlin
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Maybe, sometimes,  when someone says they believe a thing, even a thing we ourselves think of as obviously and intuitively incorrect, they are just being honest and they really do believe. 

Perhaps the better approach, assuming you know what they believe at all, is to ask why they believe it and take the conversation from there. 

Maybe you could even set up some kind of quid pro quo dialogue where we tell each other what we believe and why and see if there is any common ground between our ideas or legitimate criticisms, of either idea to be sure, but most especially our own if we do in fact want to have strong well considered beliefs.

Perhaps this is as good a place as any to start that conversation so if you aren't sure about someone's point if view involved, by all means starting with mine, please ask them.
#2
3RU7AL
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@secularmerlin
Perhaps this is as good a place as any to start that conversation so if you aren't sure about someone's point if view involved, by all means starting with mine, please ask them.
I try to let people self-identify.

For example, I've never met two self-described Christians who believe exactly the same things.
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#3
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@3RU7AL
I try to let people self-identify.
This seems like a wiser policy than trying to put a label on a human that you may or may not fully understand (probably not fully if we are being honest).
#4
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@secularmerlin
Thinking about it a little more, I don't believe I've ever met any individual person who believed the exact same things at two different times.
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#5
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@3RU7AL
Excellent point.
#6
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@secularmerlin
If your post is in regards to the title of mine, I happen to agree with everything you said.  I titled my post that as a parody of Stephen's "great Christian deception". 

It was jocular more than anything else. Ultimately forums should, in theory, be a place where ideas are exchanged....but sometimes you got to have a little fun.
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#7
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@Soluminsanis
I don't have a problem with fun. Just thought I would promote a little empathy too. Feel welcome to stay and participate though if you like.
#8
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@secularmerlin
What actually is belief?

Other than a word that vaguely describes an individuals data output relative to their conditioned state of mind.


#9
Stephen
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@secularmerlin
Perhaps the better approach, assuming you know what they believe at all, is to ask why they believe it and take the conversation from there. 

That is all I ever do. I ask the believing Christians questions about what it is  they believe in. i.e. I ask them question concerning their own subject of belief. 
I started a thread asking how a person becomes a Christian by choice? Hardly a single one could tell me directly how or why they became a Christian. It seems this is a prickly subject.    If you'er interested >>>
 
I have always maintained that the greatest question anyone can ask a member of the faith is -  why did god create anything in the first place? Wasn't he happy in his heavenly abode being among all of his heavenly angelic creations?  This too seems a prickly subject for them to discuss.


The great deception of claiming some great deception

I have also a thread on Christians deceiving themselves and it appears they want to avoid that prickly subject too and would rather discuss something else rather than the theme of the thread. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5621-great-christian-deception


why they believe it

 Theist simply do not like being asked awkward and inconvenient questions about what they believe in and  the scriptures in particular.. It scares them. See their latest avoidances of the facts here >>>


 they don't know what the "will  to be done " actaully is although they repeat this mantra a billion times a day >> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5282-thy-will-be-done


And they deny what is written in their own scriptures, when it is convenient for them to do so.


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@zedvictor4
What actually is belief?
Excellent question. When I get a better answer than "the stuff I suspect is true" I'll get back to you.
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@Stephen
It is so good to hear that you have NEVER EVER DONE ANYTHING WRONG AND DON'T HAVE TO APOLOGIZE AND WON'T APOLOGIZE AND IT IS ALL THEM. I want you to know that I recognize the emotional maturity of that position. 
#12
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@zedvictor4
What actually is belief?
A collection of subjectively actionable data.
#13
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@3RU7AL
Two good answers.

Belief is uncertainty, no matter how certain we think we are.
#14
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@secularmerlin
It is so good to hear that you have NEVER EVER DONE ANYTHING WRONG AND DON'T HAVE TO APOLOGIZE AND WON'T APOLOGIZE AND IT IS ALL THEM. 

 I don't know how you have come to such a conclusion about me from my explaining to you  my own experiences  with the Christian faithful and what it is they have faith in.

 Regretfully, I have done wrong and  I have been wrong. But oddly Christians never seems to see themselves as ever being wrong about  the bible being  wrong, contradictory, ambiguous and riddled with anomalous half stories when it comes to their own beliefs and the faith they hold in their own ancient scriptures.  In my own experience they are always wrong, they can never face the facts and never apologize when proven to be wrong.  Faith, I will concede,  is powerful thing.  And I have never set out to even attempt to change someones faith. I have only ever questioned that which the faithful have faith in.


is to ask why they believe it and take the conversation from there. 

Yep, that is exactly what I do in the case of what it is that Christians have faith in. 


31 days later

#15
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@secularmerlin
@#1
If you want to understand that individual, their ideas, motivations.
Then listening, hearing them explain, usually does tell you more about them, than a quick demonization of them and their opinions.
#16
Polytheist-Witch
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@zedvictor4
What actually is belief?

Other than a word that vaguely describes an individuals data output relative to their conditioned state of mind.

Abraham Hicks: 

A belief is only a thought I keep thinking.
A belief is only a thought that I continue to think.
A belief is only my habit of thought.
It’s only a practiced thought.
A belief is only a thought that I think a lot.

#17
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@Polytheist-Witch
Yep.

Data output relative to a conditioned state of mind.

22 days later

#18
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@secularmerlin
Perhaps the better approach, assuming you know what they believe at all, is to ask why they believe it and take the conversation from there. 
Maybe your missing the point of your own suggestion and being too simplistic.

Surely if someone believes something that isn't true he doesn't need to be asked why he believes such nonsense because obviously there is something a bit loose going on in his head. We should be asking, "How can I help you?"

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#19
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@Mandrakel
IF the goal is (de)conversion THEN "help" in "accepting the truth" from someone regarded as an oppositional figure is unlikely the answer.

#20
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@secularmerlin
IF the goal is (de)conversion THEN "help" in "accepting the truth" from someone regarded as an oppositional figure is unlikely the answer.

That is illogical. What if that "oppositional figure" just happens to be right?
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#21
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@Mandrakel
What if that "oppositional figure" just happens to be right?
That is completely immaterial in the vast majority of cases. In fact most supernatural claims are insulated from reasonable argument by the unfalsifiable nature of the claim itself. 
#22
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@Mandrakel
Not sure why anyone thinks I need their help or to be  de-converted.  I am not out trying to screw atheists over.
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#23
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@Polytheist-Witch
Not sure why anyone thinks I need their help or to be  de-converted
This is not actually my intention. I am actually testing the strength of my own arguments first and foremost. 
#24
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@Polytheist-Witch
I am not out trying to screw atheists over.
At least, not intentionally.

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#25
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@Mandrakel
I am not out trying to screw atheists over.
At least, not intentionally.
Try establishes intention. You didn't need to repeat what she said. Also Polytheist-Witch is not a member of a religion that is currently doing great harm. They just don't have the membership. 
#26
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@Mandrakel
Not at all. Nothing I do screws them in any way.