Some may recognize this phrase by Lorenzo Snow. "...may become" because it is destiny, but not all will reach it, because some just cannot work without setting limits on themselves. It is indicative of the idea of eternal progression, the role of God and man, and the purpose of our mortal lives working toward immortality and eternal life. Eternal life is not just everlasting life, but specifically, everlasting in the presence of God, who intends that we become like him, while he continues progressing, himself. There is no end to becoming perfect in all things. Like knowledge, it is without end. Perfection, like any single skill, has its degrees of accomplishment. Perfection, like eternity, is a boundless, borderless accomplishment, ever expanding, ever advancing. We try to limit the definition because we have, at present, finite minds. It will not always be so. Then, as the British once though of their empire, the sun will never set on us.
As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become
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I'd just like to point out that, when someone in the Bible promised "You will be like God," it wasn't God who said it.
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@SirAnonymous
it wasn't God who said it.
Guess you'll never know if you don't ask him. What, afraid to know yourself? Argue for your limitations; they're yours.
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@fauxlaw
No, I know perfectly well who said it. "You will be like God" was a lie told by the devil. Not just any lie, but the lie that convinced Adam and Eve to sin, bringing sin into the world.
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@SirAnonymous
Was it, in fact, a lie? What was Satan's entire line? "Ye shall be as gods [note that is plural], knowing good and evil." That is complete knowledge gods have, and man can have, growing from line upon line of understanding, becoming gods in the process. It's a long, long line, but it's worth. the journey.
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@fauxlaw
"Ye shall be as gods [note that is plural], knowing good and evil."
The only major translation I can find that has it as plural is the KJV, which, while iconic, is not the most accurate. All the others I looked at have it singular. According to the footnotes for one of the translations, it can go either way. Since it's not completely certain how it translates into English, it would be wise to resist the temptation to try to push an agenda based on it.
Was it, in fact, a lie?
Yes and no. No, in that Satan was factually correct that they would know good and evil. Yes, in that, rather than becoming like God, they were instead separated from Him.
That is complete knowledge gods have, and man can have, growing from line upon line of understanding, becoming gods in the process. It's a long, long line, but it's worth. the journey.
That is an assertion, and the burden of proof is on you. But let's examine it according to Scripture.
As man is, God once was.
Psalm 90:2 (ESV)
"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God."
There was never a time when God was not God. He is God, from everlasting to everlasting. Furthermore, God is not progressing.
Malachi 3:6
"For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."
God is not a man that He needs to improve. He is the Alpha and Omega, I Am Who I Am.
As God is, man may become.
Isaiah 44:6-8 (ESV)
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
Who is like me? Let him proclaim it
Let him declare and set it before me,
since I appointed an ancient people.
Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Fear not, nor be afraid;
have I not told you from of old and declared it?
And you are my witnesses!
Is there a God besides me?
There is no Rock; I know not any.'"
There is only one God. Beside Him there is no other. What, then, is the purpose of serving God? As you've said yourself, let's not ask the plumber. Let's ask God. After all, He did send us a book filled with His Word.
1 Peter 1:3-9 (ESV)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls."
God does not promise us that we will become gods. He promises us the salvation of our souls. He promises us an inheritance an heaven. This is the message of the gospel.
You told me to ask God, so I did. I read His Word, and this is the answer. No, we will not become gods. There is only one God. He offers us salvation and an imperishable inheritance. We can't gain it by working or by any merits of our own. "According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again" It is only by God's mercy that we can be saved. We can't gain it from "line upon line of understanding." We can't gain it from personal responsibility or being wise. As a message, the gospel is humbling. We are inherently sinful. We cannot save ourselves by our efforts. Only God can save us. He can wash away our sins, but it is never because of who we are, but only because of Who He is and what He has done. It is all for His glory.
Sorry if I bored you with my preaching. I've noticed that whenever I start diving into Scripture to prove a theological point, I almost inevitably end by preaching. When I once again read God's word and see the beauty of His salvation, I sometimes can't help but try to share it.
No friend that is absolutely false. God plainly tells us in Scripture He is before all things and by Him all things consist. As sir anonymous pointed out there was no God before the Lord and there will be none after.
Also, it is impossible to have a coherent theology on mormon doctrine.
If God was once a man, he must have parents. If he had parents, his parents need parents.
This causes an infinite regress with no actual ground of being ever being reached.
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@SirAnonymous
No, I know perfectly well who said it. "You will be like God" was a lie told by the devil. Not just any lie, but the lie that convinced Adam and Eve to sin, bringing sin into the world.
Was it a lie?
And as I have pointed put many times here, that it was only after being "deceived" by one of these gods that we took on the attributes of these gods. i.e. we became like gods with all of their flaws and horrible habits of lying, cheating, stealing and killing... and some good habits. Although, after many requests for someone to do so, I have still yet to see anyone start a thread showing "god" in a good light after all the crowing about how great and and loving he is.
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil".Genesis 3:22
But don't expect "god" to shoulder any of the blame, will you.
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@Soluminsanis
Do you think eternity has a beginning and only progresses forward? Think again. That's a ray, not a line. Eternity is a line, and, yes, God has a father, and so on. The problem with our treatment0 of infinite regression is that we cannot represent it graphically, and, therefore, think that it must have a beginning point, like the big bang. Does it have to be that way? If infinity goes forward, why can't it go backward? Of course, all that has to do with time, which is not a construct God deals with. We do, but why must he? Time does not exist other than in our heads. Why impose that on God. on any of them? What, can't wrap your head around eternity? Are you supposed to be able to do that, now? With God are all things possible, or not? Faith is accepting that if not now, we will understand by and by.
> Stephen
So, you prefer the idea that we should have been forced to do good, to have no free agency to choose for ourselves, and to gain no knowledge of good and evil for ourselves, in order to use agency as it should be used? That is, after all, all that Adam and Eve did. They chose for themselves. Perhaps, after all, there is purpose in that.
And note that I am not insisting that you get off of my string. I banned you for your bad treatment of me, not because I didn't want to hear what you say. You might do likewise. Forgive and forget.
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@SirAnonymous
I accept your preaching. But, do you suppose that Isaiah is preaching to all the universe, or just to Earthlings, to whom "there is only one God?" What if Earth is but one inhabited planet of millions. Maybe billions. Or more. Who knows? And cannot these other planets have other Creators of them? To whom they are "the one true God?"
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@fauxlaw
All the universe. The language used in the passage makes that quite clear. There's no coherent way to wrangle "There is no god beside me" into "There is no god beside me, and please don't look at that planet over there that has a god beside me."
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@fauxlaw
I would suggest that the end of knowledge is the accomplishment of the GOD principle...The ultimate knowledge....The re-initiation of the universe perhaps...The continuation of the sequence.
Though this goal might also be reliant upon the abilities of Another Intelligence.
The Biblical metaphor was soon outdated by human ingenuity....So it would be foolish to assume that human ingenuity will not be superseded.
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@fauxlaw
"Do you think eternity has a beginning and only progresses forward? Think again"
No I think eternity is outside of our time space continuum.
"The problem with our treatment0 of infinite regression is that we cannot represent it graphically, and, therefore, think that it must have a beginning point, like the big bang."
The problem with infinite regression is that it is metaphysically impossible. An actual infinite number of things cannot be instatiated.
"If infinity goes forward, why can't it go backward?"
Because a forward "infinite" is a potential infinite, which means one more could always be added to the set. A past infinite would be actual, which is not instantiated.
"Why impose that on God. on any of them?"
Which god according to Mormonism created all things? If there is a never ending chain of gods reproducing and making more gods, who was the first god? Who set this in motion?
Why not worship the first deity that started the chain?
@ fauxlaw,
And note that I am not insisting that you get off of my string.
Notice, unlike that vexatious litigant and braindead cretin ethang5, I didn't address any comment of yours and stayed well on topic. I wasn't disruptive and I have not posted irrelevant nonsense contrary to the topic, your topic .
Also note that I don't give two shites about your "ban" and if you wish me to stay off your thread then don't direct your questions to me personally as you have done so on this thread, your own thread above.#10 and simply ask me to stay away. I will request that you do the same. The balls in your court.
You too have posted on my threads lately, and I haven't complained although you have taken my thread completely off topic conducting your own debate with another member and carrying on a conversation that has no relevance to the theme of the thread, my thread.. Starting here #3 Added02.03.21 10:06PM with seven posts in all and it looks like you haven't finished disrupting my thread with your own private discussion either.
And remember you were carrying on the cowardly practice of posting on MY threads when YOU had ME on block. So don't push it.
I hope this will be the last time I will ever need to address you personally.
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@Soluminsanis
No I think eternity is outside of our time space continuum.
No, the idea of eternity is that there is no time; a space time continuum, or otherwise.
An actual infinite number of things cannot be instatiated.
Do you mean instantiated? There is no instatiate according to my OED. But, either way, why need infinity be either one?
A past infinite would be actual, which is not instantiated.
The only difference between actual and potential is past and future. Why need either be instatiated, which does not exist, anyway?
who was the first god?
There is no 'first' in eternity. Why would there be? You continue to insist that eternity has a beginning. There is no clock. Kind of like, "there is no spoon." [Matrix] Isn't that contrary to the point? Quit trying to wrap your head around eternity. The point is, you cannot wrap your finite head around anything eternal. The logic of eternity is that it is. Kind of like God telling Moses, "Thou shall say unto the children of Israel [those in Egypt] I Am hath sent me unto you." In Hebrew, " 'eh-yeh " is simply a statement of being, as always existing. Eternal, yeah?
Eh. Yeah.
Why not worship the first deity that started the chain?
Oh, ye of little faith. Don't get it, yet, do you? There is no first link in the chain.
According to Fra Luca de Pacioli [friend of Da Vinci], the language of God is mathematics [a perfect language, after all]. You are insisting on a ray, a single, starting point with a half-infinite line. Eternity is a full line, infinite in both directions. If math can demonstrate that [it can] but the mind cannot, where is the fault?