I've compiled a lot of research for a potential debate, but now I want to see what people think in general, and this isn't just "should we defund the police" but also potential solutions that would replace defunding it? What would we do if we did defund the police, etc, etc.
Should we defund the police?
Posts
Total:
247
lol no
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@Theweakeredge
The defund-the-police movement supposes that police procedures dictate a racist attitude and performance. They do not. Without having definitive policies to be racially prejudiced, the incidents of police action wrongly applied is not systemic, but individual racist behavior, even if it is more than a single person doing it. The system cannot be blamed for individuals' actions, period. These defund protagonists think it is wrong that foxes watch the chicken coop, but what if it is the chickens misbehaving. Bad anology. There are, unfortunately, foxes who put on chicken suits and they misbehave, but there is no police policy for foxes to do that. So, who to blame? The system? The system does not impose foxes wearing chicken suits; the foxes do it on their own by individual choice. Get it?
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@Theweakeredge
The future of the police force is artificial intelligence. When I graduated from high school, all the bullies that were too stupid to go to college became
police officers.
See article below:
Robo Cops Make their Debut
There’s a new officer in Dubai to help fight crime, but although he wears a police cap, he’s 100% robot. Dubai police plan to have robotic officers make up a quarter of the force by 2030. It can speak six languages and is designed to read facial expressions. It has a computer touch screen where people can report a crime. The robot is deployed mainly to tourist spots and is equipped with a camera that sends live images back to police headquarters to identify wanted suspects. Although the robo cop can help deter crime and relieve some tasks from its human counterparts, humans are still expected to make arrests.
There’s a new officer in Dubai to help fight crime, but although he wears a police cap, he’s 100% robot. Dubai police plan to have robotic officers make up a quarter of the force by 2030. It can speak six languages and is designed to read facial expressions. It has a computer touch screen where people can report a crime. The robot is deployed mainly to tourist spots and is equipped with a camera that sends live images back to police headquarters to identify wanted suspects. Although the robo cop can help deter crime and relieve some tasks from its human counterparts, humans are still expected to make arrests.
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@fauxlaw
What of the criticisms of the police department that aren't racial in category; such as the overwhelming brutality across all races by police, the ineffectiveness of police (crime lowers as the policer officer per 1000 citizens decrease), etc, etc. The assumption here is that the only criticism of police officers is racial charging, but that is incorrect, what do you think of those criticisms?
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@FLRW
If the programming is insufficient or the same systemic training exercises are used as a basis for the robots, that would solve none of the criticisms of the police, at least in America.
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@Theweakeredge
What of the criticisms of the police department
What of it? Show my their police procedure manuals. Do the manuals specify racist performance? If they don't [and they don't], then the problem is individual, not systemic.
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@fauxlaw
I asked you about nonracial criticisms, that is, of the products of the police. I don't care about a systemic observation of the police in this regard, I care about the actual outcomes directly correlated and caused by the police department. You have not answered the question: furthermore, you have made a fallacy - it is also possible that a lack of regulation could cause problems. Such as an appropriate system for punishing police officers who are found guilty, the inherent level of lobbying and corruption, and the lack of regulations restricting violence used by Police officers. You are only looking at one side of the issue, a more comprehensive search would be fruitful for you.
The people that yell ACAB are the same people who call the cops when their feelings get hurt
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@Theweakeredge
Nooooooooo, police need reform, not defunding. They need more situational training, combat training and psychological evaluations. Some corrupt precincts need to be upended and replaced with new staff, but getting rid of police would be a disaster.
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@Sum1hugme
Defunding and "getting rid of" are two different things, second off - there is a fundamental problem with the police system. And that's that the police department and the entire system was literally founded on slave patrols. The central concept of police is fundamentally flawed.
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@Theweakeredge
The central concept of police is to enforce law and keep order. Defunding is a significant enough step to equate it to getting rid of, since it literally strips them of the means to enforce law and order.
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@Sum1hugme
Do you think they effectively police crime, or that they enforce "order"... do you mean substantiate racism and sexism? Do you mean that they propagate outdated court systems or justice system? Do you think that the US's police killing rate (higher than any other civilized or heavily policed country by faaar) is worth this so called "order"? Are you aware that it wasn't until the 1700s that there was anything like a "police force" and it wasn't very effective. In theory that's what the police does, thats not what they actually cause.
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@Theweakeredge
Lol no I don't think they substantiate racism and sexism. I think some laws are outdated, like many drug laws. I don't think our justice system is outdated.
I agree that police shootings in America are a problem. But the way to address that is not by defunding them, but rather training them more. They need to do more situational training, more jiujitsu training, and they need more psychological evaluations, because men break under different pressures at different times.
You also need an effective police force to enforce property rights and apprehend dangerous individuals.
You said that a police force didn't really appear until the 1700's but coincidentally, that is the century that homicide rates plummeted to historical lows [1]. And they are lower than they've ever been. You can't honestly argue that defunding the police would make them more effective.
[1] https://ourworldindata.org/homicides#:~:text=the%20linked%20articles.-,Summary,more%20than%2050%20times%20higher.
I agree that police shootings in America are a problem. But the way to address that is not by defunding them, but rather training them more. They need to do more situational training, more jiujitsu training, and they need more psychological evaluations, because men break under different pressures at different times.
You also need an effective police force to enforce property rights and apprehend dangerous individuals.
You said that a police force didn't really appear until the 1700's but coincidentally, that is the century that homicide rates plummeted to historical lows [1]. And they are lower than they've ever been. You can't honestly argue that defunding the police would make them more effective.
[1] https://ourworldindata.org/homicides#:~:text=the%20linked%20articles.-,Summary,more%20than%2050%20times%20higher.
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@Sum1hugme
What? The all term drop in homicides were dropping from the 1400s! The 1600s and 1700s were the very ends of that drop, did you actually read your evidence? Because you don't seem to know what you're talking about
Furthermore, the evidence does not support your view, as police officers per 1000 citizens decrease crime also decreases - as has been the record since the early 2000s. I have an entire google doc of sources. Do you want to have a debate on the subject?
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@Theweakeredge
Defunding and "getting rid of" are two different things, second off - there is a fundamental problem with the police system. And that's that the police department and the entire system was literally founded on slave patrols. The central concept of police is fundamentally flawed.
Which police system are you referring to?
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@Conway
The local police departments of the US, though the state police would also be defunded.
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@Theweakeredge
Many 911 calls are family disputes that need people trained assessing a chaotic situation and lowering the emotional tension, not a person trained with a gun or tazer.
Some communities have these and with good success. Communication is key to so many disputes and one of the aspect of the training can be as simple as one the team getting a nearby dog to stop barking, so all can have have less chaotic distractions barking away at their ears ergo the nervous system.
We need to defund the racist, bigoted, mis-information, dis-information, immoral culture of stupidity, and then, fund the culture of moral and intellectual integrity
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@ebuc
Even if we disagree on some subjects we seem to agree here.
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@Theweakeredge
Let me do some more research and I might take you up on that.
I forgot to ask, what is the end goal of defunding the police?
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@Sum1hugme
Well A) to get rid of civilian's access to military level equipment that has historically perpuated and started riots from peaceful protest, B) replace a fundamentally broken system with something which actually works to prevent crime, and doesn't have one of the highest kill rates in the world, and C) stop a very large part of systemic racism from the justice system.
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@Theweakeredge
What is the replacement proposed in B?
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@Sum1hugme
Still researching that, though super specialized task forces similar to how a hospital staff work - of course - that's why I asked for solutions.
It doesn't seem that increased police budgets have a meaningful impact on crime from my limited reading on the topic. However, I know from a book I read that historically societies like Somalia that lacked the wherewithal to defend private property from wrongdoers saw their societies locked in economic stagnation, I would imagine that a police system could have alleviated these issues, therefore suggesting that some police presence is important. Put simply, a policeless society probably isn't good, but a reduced role of police (at least in the United States) doesn't seem to be a massive detriment.
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@Trent0405
Better idea, we have something that prevents the economic stagnation that isn't also highly corruptable.
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@Theweakeredge
Better idea, we have something that prevents the economic stagnation that isn't also highly corruptable.
Perhaps, but what other force could protect property to prevent said stagnation? The only thing I can think of is the military or providing landowners with weaponry to defend their property. These alternatives sound much worse to me (though this is merely off the back of my intuition).
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@Theweakeredge
Yep...And leave the proud boys to sort things out.....All that they require is a tin of cheap beer.
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@Trent0405
Well, to me it sounds like a confusion of correlation and causation; however, all you would have to do is find something else to fix the problem. The greeks had no problem with this, despite not having anything like a heavy military presence in the city-state or a "police". Therefore it is more than possible to maintain this - but simply put - having highly trained people who aren't so quick to shoot deal with violent crimes would be included here. The difference? They wouldn't be taught what police officers are.....which... what they learn is very concerning.
We shouldn't keep funding it nor should we "defund" it, we just need to use the funds at the right places.
Catching robbers and arresting them because the robber stole stuff is a right use for the police. Shooting black people for little to no reason is not. To give the public a good impression, the latter and its likes should be utmostly avoided.
Retract the funds which the police officers use to bath in gold and waste their ammunitions, and you have a police force with much less waste. That is a good thing. Essentially, a policeless society is absurd, but the police budget should cover what is absolutely needed: Like cop cars, nightsticks, but we don't need guns if we are just patrolling traffic.
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@zedvictor4
I don't know if you are a centrist or a rightist, but the proud boys should be arrested and thrown in prison in any police system with an abundance of virtue. That isn't realistic, as there are too many racists in the US law enforcement system.