This thread is for the players of the Dungeons and Dragons game to have extended OOC discussions. The occasional OOC question or comment is okay in the main thread, but multi-post OOC discussions should go here.
Dungeons and Dragons OOC Chat
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I moved the previous post to its now proper thread regarding the GBF/double attack analysis 😂.
wait, you can dual wield... if you use double attack, you get two attacks main hand, and still get an offhand attack as a bonus action. All three hit that's (3d8+6). By far ur best DPR bet is to use dual wielding and double attack. As opposed to (2d8+3... + 1d8 secondary). Not only do you have 3 hit rolls, and super good odds to hit at least once). And though its not likely you hit all three, DPR wise dual-wield+ double attack would fmpov be solidly above the DPR of GFB, though you wouldn't get the 2d8+3 + 1d8 secondary, burst on a singular hit, you'd have to hit all three times to get that 3d8. But you would get at least one hit a round in a likelihood.Factor in also thats three opportunities to crit and double ur damage for the attack that critted as compared to one. Which is also a factor to heavily take into consideration fmpov.
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@drafterman
(This was a hella good idea, btw 😂)
Dual wielding will become a trade off with AC because right now he is sword and boarding it.
Having to role multiple times to hit doesn't affect the average damage output over time, it just concentrates where that damage appears. It's a bit like asking: do you want to do 5 damage every round or 10 damage every other round (and 0 damage in between).
I'm going to make a general, one-time comment about meta-gaming. It is something that is generally frowned upon in the DnD community. It is an expectation that you have your characters act in the manner that they should act given the knowledge that they should have. This is especially poignant with respect to knowing enemy's strengths and weaknesses.
I haven't been (and won't be) harping on that here for several reasons.
1. This is a hard campaign. It is known for it's numerous TPKs (if played strictly and RAW). So I don't mind the slight advantage that it gives you.
2. I generally don't want to be the DM who is nagging players about this kind of thing.
3. There will be a lot of things that are specific and unique to this module.
4. You guys get it wrong just about as often as you get it right 😂
5. As DM I can always change it if I want.
In general, I like the strategizing and planning, but just keep #3 through #5 in the back of your minds.
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@drafterman
I'm not sure I understand how dual wield and double attack works together I guess, looking at the wiki, I would get 2 main hand attacks and 2 offhand, is that correct?
now if I use GFB I get one attack + GFB damage and GFB damage to a second target, right?
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@drafterman
Having to role multiple times to hit doesn't affect the average damage output over time, it just concentrates where that damage appears
In a sense, the increased likelihood of a crit should be factoring in too. 1/20 or 5% odds on critting in one roll(1d20.) 3 rolls(3d20) you have a 15% chance of rolling at least one crit. That's a signifigant jump in probability that will boost DPR fmpov.
So it would take 3 rounds to have 15% chance to cri with GFB. Whereas in that same three round span, there would be a 45% chance of rolling at least one crit.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Ok. So here is how it works. During any round of combat on your turn you get:
1. An action.
2. A bonus action (if you have an ability that uses a bonus action)
3. A move.
As an action, you can cast a spell. If you use that action to cast Green-Flame Blade, you get 1d8+3 from the built-in attack, + 1d8 fire damage with that main attack, and another 1d8 fire damage on a secondary target.
As an action, you can attack. If you use your action to Attack (not cast a spell), Extra Attack allows you to attack twice meaning you get two 1d8+3 attacks.
If you are wielding two weapons, and you use your action to attack (not cast a spell) you can use a bonus action to make an additional attack with no modifiers on the damage, for 1d8 damage.
You only get one bonus action, so if you decide to dual wield you'll be making a total of three attacks: 1d8+3, 1d8+3, and 1d8.
None of this factors in Action Surge.
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@Buddamoose
Correct, attacking multiple times does increase the crit chance.
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@Buddamoose
for now it maybe worth the chance to do some damage to someone else's enemy as i can probably tank them better than most the other group.
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@drafterman
gotcha, thanks.
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@drafterman
So then let's say, arbitrarily, in a 20 round span of time you would get in all likelihood 1 crit with GFB and place it at an average of, arbitrarily speaking 3d8+3 total damage over the course of a, let's just say abitrarily, every three rounds, for about 18d8+18 dmg or so over the course of that 20 round span + an extra 2d8+3for the one crit(unless the secondary is doubled as welll, in which case 3d8+3). So 20d8+21 damage over 20 rds, and 1d8+1 DPR.
Then let's place it at 3d8+6 per 3 rounds dual wield double attack over that span. However, there is almost guaranteed chance to crit over that same span of time. (15% per round, 3 rds = 45% chance of one crit.
So thats about 50/50 odds of adding another 1d8+(3 if main hand?) to that total damage output in just three rounds. At 6 rounds ur almost guaranteed to get at least one. So you would average about 3 crits in addition to the regular damage output.
So an additional 3d8+9 over the course of 20 rds on average. Placing the ouput at 21d8+45 dmg over 20 rounds. or a little over 1.4d8+ 2 DPR over that same course.
Now that I've done the math, a little over +1 DPR(under 2) isnt a large difference. But then theres overkill(left-over) damage that cant be factored beyond saying, fmpov, there's a greater likelihood with GFB you have leftover damage upon killing something, and at greater amounts, while dual wield + double attack gives a greater range of control on where that dmg goes, reducing overkill dmg by a reasonably signifigant amount, maximizing "real" damage output or damage that actually affects HP and isnt overkill.
Well great, now i have a headache from this math and analysis 😂.
I only play d and d online game.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
(especially since im not seeing anything that states you can't attack two different enemies with the double attack, then even an additional one beyond that with the offhand bonus attack. It essentially ensures ur not doing overkill that's anymore than 1d8+2(min. 1 hp remaining on creature. Whereas with GFB you have the potential of an overkill of 2d8-1.
It's up to you though, that +1 to AC w/shield is something to consider also. Less damage output overall and DPR, but reduced damage intake. I'm just trying to give you maximal info to gauge that decision more effectively 😂.
Honestly, I forgot how deep the rabbit hole is when it comes to meta analysis w/ this game. 2 lengthy ass posts just to conclude what was already known. It's a close and tough call 😂.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
for now it maybe worth the chance to do some damage to someone else's enemy as i can probably tank them better than most the other group.
(You have more control when it comes to this with dual-wield + double attack fmpov. Can potentially damage a Max 3 diff creatures in a turn instead of 2 maximum. But unlike GFB, that dmg on another target isn't guaranteed on hit if in range. So yet again, it's another case of a trade-off of benefits 😂.)
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@Buddamoose
definitely situational and this will be a good combat experiment going forward. i'll check the wiki about switching targets.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Found it, Players Handbook pg. 190
If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.
So yeah, you can split ur attacks up to all separate targets.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
so gameplanning for level 6 im gonna round off my anti-spellcasting stuff. I'll take counterspell and command like planned. But am gonna switch it up and take silence as opposed to hypnotic pattern like i was starting to lean towards originally. Seems like a silence would have far greater utility to this group being we are severely lacking in that department as you pointed out. At that point I'll be remove curse away from essentially being the complete anti-spell guy 😂.
Thoughts?
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@Buddamoose
The sounds really good imo, in the hag fight, the sleep and paralysis spells basically won the fight for them.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
It's true that sleep, paralysis, and polymorph were annoying. But what lost us that fight imho was not using any tactics at all and just pouring into the downstairs room and turning it into a cluster 😂.
We ignored the battlefield, didn't use the terrain to our advantage, like funneling them up the stairs to force them into having to take us one at a time, and instead crammed into one room 😂.
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@Buddamoose
it's difficult to coordinate via this format, but this would be a good spot to try that next time the situation arises. Been thinking about the dual wield thing, gaining 1 to ac vs and extra attack, the chances of one more ac making a difference would be extremely small, I don't think it's worth giving up an extra attack.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
the chances of one more ac making a difference would be extremely small, I don't think it's worth giving up an extra attack.
(It'd be like, a Max 5%(1/20) increased chance to not get hit. At 18 ur at a pretty good AC as is and actually nearing the max you can obtain w/out magical items to boost it. AC becomes less important the higher you level, because it doesn't change much. Like for example a level 1 might have 16 AC, while that same character at 10 might have like 17-19 AC
This ties into bounded accuracy and how that changed the distribution of damage in fights. Instead of alot misses with a burst of damage upon hitting, it's less misses, but less burst in favor of that dmg being more spread out over time. Bounded accuracy is also why they took out Masterwork items, +1 items are, even at just +1 and non-magical, still more in the realm rare items in terms of power, as opposed to the moreso uncommon/common item they were considered before.)
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@drafterman
Is it possible to substitute the usual action/bonus action for two bonus actions?
Would Channel Divinity work on wolves🤔?)
You mean turn the unholy? Not unless they were edited to count as a fiend or undead, otherwise, wolves are generally beasts, so probably not. You could always take an action to identify and figure that out conclusively. That sacred weapon for channel divinity tho 👍
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@secularmerlin
No.
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@secularmerlin
@Earth
@TheDredPriateRoberts
@kindertina
(take a quick short rest after the fight? Roll a hit die + song of rest, reserve the other hit die for later use?)
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@Buddamoose
Sounds good.
@buddamoose @earth
That or ten minutes to cast healing prayer and I still have a second level slot for spirit weapon before we long rest.
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@secularmerlin
(eh, I think it'd be more prudent to just use our hit dice to heal up some and reserve those slots for spirit weapon. Let's say another 2-3 encounters at most before we make camp? pending how difficult those encounters may be. We should each have 5 hit die. So really, using 2 die + song of rest should heal us up nicely and back to full or at least near it.
Prayer of Healing seems more situational to like, we just long rested so we can't, but got into a really tough fight and we're all near death. Prayer of Healing in conjunction with a short rest at that point would be optimal use of it because healing just w/a short rest when all near death would require pretty much every hit die+song of rest, just to have a slim chance of rolling really well and healing beyond just a moderate amount. That's when prayer of healing shines because it would add 4d6 healing to that total, increasing the odds of healing back to full or near full by quite a bit.)
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@Buddamoose
Ok but don't forget that I have third level slots and virtually no third level spells prepared.