N*g*er

Author: Wagyu 3 years ago

Posts

Total: 46

Topic's author

Wagyu

Debates: 9

Posts: 130

Wagyu

01.16.2021 10:49AM

Story time.

A few months ago I was challenged to an online debate in an instagram group chat regarding banning the N-word with my friends friend. Me, being an expert debater, clapped my opponent so hard that they resorted to calling my schools headmaster and getting me sent to the principles office. Predictably, my headmaster wasn't too pleaded. They attempted to reason with me, however the reasons they gave for why the n-word is bad weren't the strongest. Upon reflection, I guess I understand that the school cannot be handing out candy for people saying the N-word, so I suppose they did what they had to do. After some back and forth, I conceded the "debate" because getting expelled wasn't looking too far fetched at that point.

The following is what I wrote. It was a while ago and I didn't put too much thought into it. Not my peak debating skill.

Hm, an interesting proposition indeed, however, I shall take this time to respectfully refute this claim. Clearly, for one to believe the N-word is rude is to overlook two fundamental factors, being a) how language can evolve over time and b) that rude words simply enhance the ability to free speech.

It is apparent that when the N-word was used in this instagram group chat yesterday at 22:36, controversy seemed to emerge. It is clear that those of whom were disturbed by the use of this word may be overlooking how language can evolve. Have any of you used the term “hip hip hooray”? For some context, hip hip hooray is allegedly derived from the German phrase “hep hep”, an anti-semtic term used during the riots of 1819, in which the Nazis use the phrase whilst rounding up Jews during the holocaust. Clearly, as this word is widely used in times of happiness and celebration, it can be concluded that any historical stigma attached to the word has been removed. The same can be said for the N-word. How do we know this? Black musicians, more than anyone else use this term frequently in their music. Notably Juice Wrld, who in his recent banger of an album dropped versus such as “Ain't too many real niggas here no more”, “That Tommy hit a nigga, Tommy Hilfiger, fuck niggas” “I don't smoke skunk, but tonight I'm getting stuck, nigga”. Surely, if this term was as derogatory as it is portrayed, black men would hesitate in using it so freely?

One may respond by saying “Juice Wrld is black, he has the right to say it”, however this just brings us down the dangerous rabbit hole of identity politics. Is segregating people by the race wise? Is limiting vocabulary on the basis of one’s race in fact racist?

As stated in the introduction, section b) focuses more on my personal right to free speech. Take a step back and consider why the N-word is actually bad. It’s rude? It’s hateful? These are both poor reasons for banning such a word. Are we now banning words on the basis that they are rude? Why is it that I am allowed to make attacks on your physical appearance, logistical coherence, mental cognitive abilities and your mother, but when race is bought into the equation, everything comes to a halt? Surely offending my mother is quite rude and hateful. Calling me a different species to that of my own is certainly rude. The N-word isn’t the only “rude” term there is in the English vocabulary. What is the solution, are we going to ban all hateful speech? What will that leave us with? Complimentary statements bring happiness only because there are hateful words to contrast with them.

Could someone rebut this? Am I missing something fundamental? I hope you get that I am not racist. What I'm getting at essentially is that people should stop living in the past. Wouldn't it be in the best interest of people to rid the n-word of it's age old meaning and instead turn it into the new hip hip horary?

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 12,074

zedvictor4

01.16.2021 01:04PM

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@Wagyu

How long before "they" , who ever they are, ban the hideously offensive word whitey.....

Let's just refer to it as the W word in future please.

And I promise not to refer to Mr T as orangey ever again.

Or Humpty Dumpty as eggy.

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

01.16.2021 02:29PM

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@Wagyu

however this just brings us down the dangerous rabbit hole of identity politics.

Is segregating people by the race wise? Is limiting vocabulary on the basis of one’s race in fact racist?

Ok.

Here's the trick.

It's considered "RUDE" for certain people to use certain words.

THIS IS NOT A LEGAL DISTINCTION.

That's an important point.

There is no LAW that limits specific words based on personal identification.

HOwEVer,

You can be kicked out of school for being "RUDE" ("anti-social" and or "disruptive").

Now, STRANGELY, unlike a legal case where "intention" and "motive" are explored, YOUR SCHOOL GETS TO DECIDE ON THE FLY WHAT QUALIFIES AS "RUDE".

This qualification is both capricious and tyrannical. Anyone who might dare to question this assessment is automatically disqualified.

LAW IS CODIFIED MOB RULE.

the sooner you learn this, the sooner everything will make sense.

WORDS AND SYMBOLS ARE INHERENTLY MEANINGLESS.

WORDS AND SYMBOLS ARE UNDEFINED VARIABLES.

WE BRAINWASH PEOPLE INTO BELIEVING THAT CERTAIN WORDS AND SYMBOLS MEAN SPECIFIC THINGS.

RULE #1: DON'T SCARE THE SHEEPS

ethang5

Debates: 1

Posts: 5,875

ethang5

01.16.2021 04:17PM

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@Wagyu

A few months ago I was challenged by Willows to an online debate on a DDO board regarding whether using the N-word was a sign of racism. It soon became clear that he was just an immature racist trying to create opportunities to use the n-word and escape sanction and charges of racism.

He started posting racist jokes, sanctimoniously asking, "are these racist?" Soon he graduated to insulting Africans though the convo had nothing to do with Africans. When he followed me here to Dart, he was terrified to have his old racist remarks posted here. That is one of the reasons he changed his name.

I say all this because banning words misses the point. It's silly. It isn't words that harm, but racists. Racists are toxic no matter what words they use. Their is rancid feces is not in their words but I their hearts. Banning the words and leaving the racist leaves their poo untouched. Willows tried to hide his racism, but his putrid heart found other ways to pour out his toxic poo anyway.

So while Dart still has free speech, the free racist was banned and the problem ceased to exist. (Until the compulsive dweeb started making fake accounts.) For some reason, this thread (and it's title) by Wagyu reminds me of Willows and his disingenuous racist threads.

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

01.16.2021 04:43PM

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@ethang5

Try making slightly fewer personal attacks.

oromagi

Debates: 117

Posts: 8,696

oromagi

01.16.2021 06:51PM

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@Wagyu

for one to believe the N-word is rude is to overlook two fundamental factors, being

a) how language can evolve over time and
b) that rude words simply enhance the ability to free speech

Let's note that your thesis contains a contradiction. Your first argument is that the word NIGGER is not rude because language evolves. Your second argument is that rude words like NIGGER enhance free speech. Your second argument concedes that the word NIGGER is rude, contradicting your first argument.

RUDENESS is "a display of disrespect by not complying with the social norms or etiquette of a group or culture"

so arguing that any particular display is not disrespectful in the here and now because that display was not rude in some other time or place misses the point of etiquette.

WIKIPEDIA: "In a society, manners are described as either good manners or as bad manners to indicate to a person whether or not his or her behavior is acceptable to the cultural group. As such, manners enable ultrasociality and are integral to the functioning of the social norms and conventions that are informally enforced through personal self-regulation in public life and in private life. The perspectives of sociology indicate that manners are a means for men and women to display their social status, and a means of demarcating, observing, and maintaining the boundaries of social identity and of social class."

Manners are all about social context. Showing the bottom of your feet is perfectly acceptable in water tubing or the gym but far less acceptable on an airplane. If you show the bottom of your feet to the King of Saudi Arabia you will probably do some jail time. Nobody's saying that there's something inherently wrong with showing the bottom of your feet- the point is how one demonstrates one's understanding of the society one walks in and the choices one makes in terms of self-expression relative to that society.

So in most American contexts- academia, say, or internet forums, an unqualified use of the word NIGGER is an announcement that you disrespect black people and disrespect the established norms of that society. The speaker's true intent is irrelevant to the transgression of manners. Etiquette is a series of tests established by each society to discover whether you understand that society and belong to that society.

In some select societies use of the word NIGGER is acceptable. White Supremacists often use the word to display their disrespect for black people generally and demonstrate loyalty to White Supremacist groups. Black rappers often use the word to display their disrespect for the social norms of the white establishment. In context, this contradiction makes perfect sense because the word deliberately evokes America's history of slavery. When a black man says NIGGER to a black man, the evocation is "remember our common slave ancestry" When a white man says NIGGER to a black man the evocation is "remember my ancestors owned your ancestors."

So the "language evolves" argument fails. If you wish to be a member of a particular society, you have to keep up with the changing rules.

Consider this- a year ago at this time it would be very rude to walk into a 7-Eleven wearing a mask because that would display an intent to rob the place. Most 7-Elevens had a "no masks" rule posted on the entrance. A year later, it would be very rude to walk into a 7-Eleven without a mask because that would display an intent to spread disease.

On the other hand, the President of the United States often takes offense at people wearing masks in his presence because Trump has demarked mask non-compliance as a badge of Trump loyalty.

In America, the Right to Free Speech derives from the First Amendment to the US Constitution. The Federal Government may make no law abridging the freedom of speech. We can agree that the Federal Government is therefore restricted from banning or censoring any particular word but the Constitution is entirely disinterested in the manners of any particular society and in no way protects people from the consequences of failing to respect any particular society.

So yes, NIGGER is rude in most modern social contexts. Your use of the word BAN suggest a legal prohibition but I don't think its illegal to say that word anyplace in America or should be. There will always be social sanctions for breaking the rules of any society but that is not a legal prohibition.

NOTE:

hip hip hooray is allegedly derived from the German phrase “hep hep”, an anti-semtic term used during the riots of 1819, in which the Nazis use the phrase whilst rounding up Jews during the holocaust.

"hep hep" was a traditional herders' call in German.
Most of the German Jews who remained in NAZI Germany were rounded up in 1938-39. The Hep Hep Riots of 1819 were anti-Semitic German Pogroms but there was no such thing as a NAZI then.
The first recorded use of the phrase "hip hip hooray" in English dates back to 1803 although hooray had been around for much longer and hip hip may even be an Anglo-Saxon descendant of the German phrase.

Vader

Debates: 30

Posts: 14,984

Vader

01.16.2021 07:50PM

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@Wagyu

The school has the right to censor and when dumb leftists run the district, it's probably not the smartest idea

Reece101

Debates: 1

Posts: 1,973

Reece101

01.17.2021 02:33PM

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@Wagyu

Have any of you used the term “hip hip hooray”? For some context, hip hip hooray is allegedly derived from the German phrase “hep hep”, an anti-semtic term used during the riots of 1819, in which the Nazis use the phrase whilst rounding up Jews during the holocaust.

It seems like you’re conflating two time periods which are a century apart.

Other than that, I’ve always wondered why I never liked Happy Birthday being sung to me.

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

01.17.2021 03:08PM

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@oromagi

Your use of the word BAN suggest a legal prohibition but I don't think its illegal to say that word anyplace in America or should be. There will always be social sanctions for breaking the rules of any society but that is not a legal prohibition.

Why did you feel compelled to type the word out?

#10

oromagi

Debates: 117

Posts: 8,696

oromagi

01.17.2021 07:09PM

-> @oromagi
Your use of the word BAN suggest a legal prohibition but I don't think its illegal to say that word anyplace in America or should be. There will always be social sanctions for breaking the rules of any society but that is not a legal prohibition.
Why did you feel compelled to type the word out?

Fear of writing out a complete word stems from an ancient fear of accidentally summoning or attracting the attention of a god or other magical being- the way Sauron's name was feared in LotR or Voldemort's in Harry Potter. The point of minces and grawlices is to avoid offending the gods included in various oaths and curses. Extending those magical practices to words that do not invoke any god- shit, fuck, nigger, etc makes absolutely zero sense- its a superstitious practice that has forgotten its main purpose. I suppose the modern intent is to display a more polite intention but I think it gives the word more power because those words get special treatment. Nor is there any semantic shift- shoot or shite might offer a little semantic variation on shit in some context but sh*t and shit mean the exact same thing semantically and everybody who reads the word sh*t is saying shit in her head so the effect of the special treatment is to elevate the word as magical or imbued with more power than other words. I don't think the word should be given magical treatment. Words are not inherently offensive in and of themselves, they are only made offensive by context and usage.

#11

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

01.17.2021 07:24PM

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@oromagi

...elevate the word as magical or imbued with more power than other words.

Ok, so basically you're giving the word power (by using it) in order to not give it power (by not using it).

#12

oromagi

Debates: 117

Posts: 8,696

oromagi

01.17.2021 07:50PM

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@3RU7AL

--> @oromagi
...elevate the word as magical or imbued with more power than other words.
Ok, so basically you're giving the word power (by using it) in order to not give it power (by not using it).

I'm saying that by special treatment, n*gger gives the word more power than just writing it out like any other word.

#13

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

01.17.2021 07:53PM

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@oromagi

I'm pretty sure you're "giving it power" either way.

#14

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

01.17.2021 07:55PM

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@oromagi

WORDS AND SYMBOLS ARE INHERENTLY MEANINGLESS.

WORDS AND SYMBOLS ARE UNDEFINED VARIABLES.

WE BRAINWASH PEOPLE INTO BELIEVING THAT CERTAIN WORDS AND SYMBOLS MEAN SPECIFIC THINGS.

RULE #1: DON'T SCARE THE SHEEPS

#15

oromagi

Debates: 117

Posts: 8,696

oromagi

01.17.2021 08:06PM

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@3RU7AL

> @oromagi
WORDS AND SYMBOLS ARE INHERENTLY MEANINGLESS.

WORDS AND SYMBOLS ARE UNDEFINED VARIABLES.

WE BRAINWASH PEOPLE INTO BELIEVING THAT CERTAIN WORDS AND SYMBOLS MEAN SPECIFIC THINGS.

RULE #1: DON'T SCARE THE SHEEPS

anti-language + anti-math = a return to the caves

#16

ethang5

Debates: 1

Posts: 5,875

ethang5

01.17.2021 09:51PM

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@3RU7AL

Try making slightly fewer personal attacks.

I made no personal attack on any Dart member. If you feel attacked you shouldn't have. But if you can make personal attacks on people who are not members of Dart, say, like our President, I can also claim the right. Ethan has a big no hypocrisy zone around him.

20 days later

#17

Double_R

Debates: 3

Posts: 5,260

Double_R

02.07.2021 06:36PM

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@Wagyu

The N-word isn’t the only “rude” term there is in the English vocabulary. What is the solution, are we going to ban all hateful speech? What will that leave us with?

Rude behavior is generally considered unacceptable on any platform or organized space. I assume that’s not the issue you are looking to have addressed.

Comparing the N-word to other rude words is a false equivalence because it is rooted in actual trauma suffered by African Americans at the hands of white American society for centuries. Because of its history it is a dehumanizing word on a level no word in the English language can compare to.

Before you say “but that’s the past, move on”, let me ask you... have you ever been on ancestry.com? Have you ever heard the stories of your great great great great grandfather? Must be nice to have a family history and culture to look back on. That was stolen from black Americans. It turns out that no one ever thought to track the family history of their property.

Ever sit around with your white friends talking about time travel, and what it would be like to go back in time and witness the country’s founding? Not of you’re black, you would have been hauled off and sold.

Ever listen to people talk about how wonderful our constitution is? Now imagine what it is like listening to that conversation knowing that the same document they are talking about says that you are three fifths of a person.

To be black in America is to live with all of this on your shoulders. This is what the N word is rooted in, and what is being thrown at black people every time it is used.

The rest is a just slippery slope fallacy. Banning one word does not make it reasonable to open the flood gates to banning all words any more than allowing gays to marry will result in people marrying their sock drawers.

#18

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

02.07.2021 06:51PM

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@oromagi

anti-language + anti-math = a return to the caves

It is an indisputable fact that language and symbols mean different things to different people at different times in history.

#19

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

02.07.2021 06:53PM

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@ethang5

Please provide specific examples of my ALLEGED ad hominem attacks.

Also,

TU QUOQUE.

#20

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

02.07.2021 06:56PM

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@Double_R

it is a dehumanizing word on a level no word in the English language can compare to.

Then shouldn't it be banned for EVERYBODY?

Shouldn't it be banned from the dictionary itself?

Topic's author

#21

Wagyu

Debates: 9

Posts: 130

Wagyu

02.07.2021 08:55PM

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@Double_R

Comparing the N-word to other rude words is a false equivalence because it is rooted in actual trauma suffered by African Americans at the hands of white American society for centuries. Because of its history it is a dehumanizing word on a level no word in the English language can compare to.

1) This is why I bought up the example of "hep hep". That too has a dehumanizing history. Why is it that if I say one, I get attacked by lefites, and I say the other at little children's birthday parties and it's perfectly fine?

2) Even so, this matters not. It is surely silly to ban a word purely on history. This would be like accepting someone at a job interview who had a successful grandfather. Surely it would be more sensible to judge it on a present level.

In short, history clearly cannot be the factor which allows you to determine whether a word should be banned. If it did, then you would have trouble expalaining why the word "hep hep" isn't as stigmatised as the N-word. There is a factor, yet to be exposed, which is making you weary of using this word.

Before you say “but that’s the past, move on”, let me ask you... have you ever been on ancestry.com? Have you ever heard the stories of your great great great great grandfather? Must be nice to have a family history and culture to look back on.

No actually, I have never been on ancestry.com. Nevertheless, you make the assumption that I am not black. Very interesting.

Ever sit around with your white friends talking about time travel, and what it would be like to go back in time and witness the country’s founding? Not of you’re black, you would have been hauled off and sold.

Ever sit around with your white friends talking about time travel, and what it would be like to go back in time and witness WW2? Not if you've Jewish, you would have been hauled of and killed. And yet you use the term "hep hep" so freely.

To answer your question, no I don't talk about time travel with my friends.

Ever listen to people talk about how wonderful our constitution is? Now imagine what it is like listening to that conversation knowing that the same document they are talking about says that you are three fifths of a person.

Do you think I am the kind of person to spend my free time reading the constitution?

Nevertheless, this is a red herring. The n word is nothing to do with the constitution.

To be black in America is to live with all of this on your shoulders. This is what the N word is rooted in, and what is being thrown at black people every time it is used.

Kanye West literally has a song named nigger in parris. Is he not black? Why can he say it and others cannot? Does it not seem racist to restrict white people from using a word purely because they're white? If black people were truly weighed down by this terrible word, then why do they use it so freely in their songs and speech?

The rest is a just slippery slope fallacy.

Incorrect. In disputing my point, you clearly believe that you should ban the n-word because it is rude. Using the same reasoning, I can then ban all rude words

p1. The n word is rude

p2. Rude words should be banned

c1 The n word should be banned because it is rude

p1. The word stupid is rude.

p2. Rude words should be banned

c1. The word stupid should be banned because it is rude.

#22

Discipulus_Didicit

Debates: 9

Posts: 5,758

Discipulus_Didicit

02.07.2021 11:11PM

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@Double_R

have you ever been on ancestry.com?

Have you ever heard the stories of your great great great great grandfather?

Must be nice to have a family history and culture to look back on.

Honestly sounds overrated to me lol.

#23

Double_R

Debates: 3

Posts: 5,260

Double_R

02.08.2021 06:12PM

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@Wagyu

History alone is not and never was the sole problem with the N word. It’s the combination of where the word came from plus how it is used today.

You talked about words evolving. Hep hep has evolved entirely. Most people have no idea where it came from, all they know about it is that it is used to express joy. Show me one person who doesn’t know where the N word came from. Show me one person who doesn’t understand that it is deeply offensive to black people.

The only evolution of the N word is that it used to be uttered by slave owners talking to their property, now it’s uttered by mostly white people to insult black people by reminding that they used to be regarded as property. Your examples are not remotely similar.

And to be clear, we’re talking about “ni**er” not “ni**a”. That’s what the title of this thread said this was about.

Kanye West literally has a song named nigger in parris. Is he not black? Why can he say it and others cannot?

That has nothing to do with this conversation. Your OP made clear that this was about the usage of the N word in private spaces, such as your school. That’s what I’m responding to.

Incorrect. In disputing my point, you clearly believe that you should ban the n-word because it is rude. Using the same reasoning, I can then ban all rude words

p1. The n word is rude
p2. Rude words should be banned
c1 The n word should be banned because it is rude

This is a complete strawman. I never said the word should be banned merely because it is rude. Nearly all decisions as to what is acceptable are considered on the basis of severity. You’re ignoring that entirely. A bank robber and a guy who stole a candy bar are both thiefs. Do you believe they should get the same sentence? I’m betting you don’t. Now apply the same concept here.

#24

Double_R

Debates: 3

Posts: 5,260

Double_R

02.08.2021 06:18PM

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@3RU7AL

Then shouldn't it be banned for EVERYBODY?

Shouldn't it be banned from the dictionary itself?

Banned in what sense? The OP discussed the usage of the word within school related activities. I made no argument that it is ok for some people to say it and not others.

I don’t think it should be banned from dictionaries, that is in part how we educate people about it.

#25

Double_R

Debates: 3

Posts: 5,260

Double_R

02.08.2021 06:22PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

Honestly sounds overrated to me lol.

The value you place on something is irrelevant to the violation of having it taken from you.

#26

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

02.12.2021 04:42PM

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@Double_R

I don’t think it should be banned from dictionaries, that is in part how we educate people about it.

Why would you want to "educate people about it"?

Doesn't that just teach people how to be racists?

#27

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

02.12.2021 04:44PM

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@Double_R

The value you place on something is irrelevant to the violation of having it taken from you.

If someone steals a blade of grass from their neighbor's yard, the value their neighbor places on that blade of grass is profoundly relevant.

#28

secularmerlin

Debates: 0

Posts: 7,093

secularmerlin

02.12.2021 05:17PM

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@3RU7AL

Why would you want to "educate people about it"?

Doesn't that just teach people how to be racists?

More to the point do you have to preserve a racial slur and by extension its offensive meaning in order to teach about the existence and history of racial slurs and the moral and ethical issues surrounding them?

#29

Double_R

Debates: 3

Posts: 5,260

Double_R

02.12.2021 09:20PM

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@3RU7AL

Why would you want to "educate people about it"?

Doesn't that just teach people how to be racists?

Are we really arguing about this?

Dictionaries don’t teach people how to be racist, they teach people what words mean. The educational process includes that and looking back at our history. I don’t think you’re going to suggest we stop teaching our history of racism too.

#30

Double_R

Debates: 3

Posts: 5,260

Double_R

02.12.2021 09:29PM

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@3RU7AL

If someone steals a blade of grass from their neighbor's yard, the value their neighbor places on that blade of grass is profoundly relevant.

The fact that you are comparing ones culture and family history to a blade of grass should make you pause about what you’re really arguing.

I’m talking about judging the level of theft with what one individual has to say about it. If I break into someone’s house and steal a million dollars, I am not considered any less dangerous or heinous because the guy who’s house it was turned out to have a billion dollars stashed away somewhere and didn’t care.