Lay Up Not Treasure In This world.

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#1

Stephen

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Stephen

01.02.2021 02:43PM

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01.02.2021 02:43PM

Matthew 6:19-20

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

So putting things away for a rainy day is pointless , according to god-Jesus. And one could suppose that would make sense if the end was indeed, nigh? 1 Peter 4:7

I wonder then why is it that members of his "chosen people" were showered in riches beyond the dreams of any poor widow that has had her house stolen from her by the deceit of Chaplains, Priests and Pastors in "fancy robes" ? Luke 20:47

If we take just one example: Solomon. The list of his riches is simply mind boggling,it really is. Just one visit from one foreign dignitary earned him:

1 Kings 10:10- 29

10 And she gave the king 120 talents[of gold, large quantities of spices, and precious stones. Never again were so many spices brought in as those the queen of Sheba gave to King Solomon.

11 (Hiram’s ships brought gold from Ophir; and from there they brought great cargoes of almugwood and precious stones.

14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents,

16 King Solomon made two hundred large shields of hammered gold; six hundred shekels of gold went into each shield. 17 He also made three hundred small shields of hammered gold, with three minas of gold in each shield. The king put them in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon.

18 Then the king made a great throne covered with ivory and overlaid with fine gold. .................

21 All King Solomon’s goblets were gold, and all the household articles in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon were pure gold.

Don't laugh , but 21 >>> "Nothing was made of silver, because silver was considered of little value in Solomon’s days" . Apparently, silver to Solomon , was as common as "stones on the ground".

23 King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth. —articles of silver and gold, robes, weapons and spices, and horses and mules.

27 The king made silver as common in Jerusalem as stones,

Well if that one example didn't make your eyes water then nothing will.

Jesus tells us that: " it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."Matthew 19:24

He instructed a man that was rich to give away all his worldly goods to "the poor" Matthew 19:21 <<< again, what would be the point of the poor having this rich mans hard earned wealth if the end was nigh?

And Jesus appears to have surrounded himself with rich men and women and people of influence?

So we see on the one hand , Jesus telling everyone else to give away everything, while on the other he has rich friends and says nothing about the obscene wealth of Solomon, one of his own chosen people.

#2

FLRW

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FLRW

01.02.2021 02:55PM

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@Stephen

Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.” He was baptized in a river. In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil. He began his ministry at age 30. Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.” He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.

Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana. He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind. His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers. He was both the Divine Son and the Father. On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth. He descended into the underworld. After three days, Attis was resurrected.

See a pattern here?

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#3

Stephen

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01.02.2021 03:02PM

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@FLRW

See a pattern here?

I do. I dedicated a whole thread to the "pattern".

here>>

Dying and Rising God/Jesus myth

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4199-dying-and-rising-god-jesus-myth

This contradictory problem of rich men and giving away of one's hard earned worldly goods is more of an issue with me than dying and rising gods myths.

What do you make of it?

#4

FLRW

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01.02.2021 04:32PM

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@Stephen

I don't know, Pastor Kenneth Copeland is worth $760 million and God killed his only son who was poor. I think

God likes wealthy stupid people. He made Trump President, didn't he?

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EtrnlVw

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01.02.2021 05:06PM

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@FLRW

I think God likes wealthy stupid people.

If you're always going to use only stupid examples your perception will always be stupid. Some men can't adapt and learn new things, it's almost as if they're intellectually impaired so they regurgitate the same stupid things regardless if they are relevant.

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Stephen

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Stephen

01.02.2021 06:43PM

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01.02.2021 06:43PM

Proverbs 8:21. bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me and making their treasuries full.

He certainly looks after his own.

#7

BrotherDThomas

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BrotherDThomas

01.02.2021 08:41PM

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@ethang5

@Stephen

@Tradesecret

.

Stephen,

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE THAT IS NOT FOLLOWED TODAY BY PSEUDO-CHRISTIANS, WHICH IS BLASPHEME!: "So we see on the one hand , Jesus telling everyone else to give away everything, while on the other he has rich friends and says nothing about the obscene wealth of Solomon, one of his own chosen people."

Barring the fact that Jesus had wealthy followers, what is more important is that the Bible inept pseudo-christians, as mentioned above with the receiving of this post, are blatant hypocrites to Jesus' words!

JESUS SAID: “And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Mark 10:21)

On a comical side note, when was the last time you saw a pseudo-christian follow this passage to the letter, where they are essentially calling Jesus a LIAR if they don’t!

Hypocritical Christians talk about Jesus, pray to Him, supplicate to Him, tell others to join their faith, but their ungodly version of faith is far from the true teachings of Jesus the Christ, hence, they are blatant Satanic HYPOCRITES to Jesus’ teachings when they do not follow Mark 10:21 shown above! “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” (Mark 7:6)

As I have told you before, I continue to follow Jesus' Mark 10:21 passage by living in a Bible Bus down by the river so as to give away anything that I receive in donations to my preaching, to the poor as wanted by Jesus the Christ in said passage!

Of note, and barring the present Bible STUPID pseudo-christian ETRNLVW, the truly Bible inept pseudo-christians monikered as Tradesecret, ethang5, Mopac, et al, WILL NOT enter this thread because of the simple fact that we will easily make them the continued Biblical fools that they are by not following Jesus' true words within Mark 10:21. Again, they will become what the link below represents!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7ni7zL8qU!

NEXT BIBLE INEPT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN WILL BE...?

.

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Stephen

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Stephen

01.03.2021 08:41AM

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@BrotherDThomas

Hypocritical Christians talk about Jesus, pray to Him, supplicate to Him, tell others to join their faith, but their ungodly version of faith is far from the true teachings of Jesus the Christ, hence, they are blatant Satanic HYPOCRITES to Jesus’ teachings when they do not follow Mark 10:21 shown above! “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” (Mark 7:6)

Brother, as you have rightly noticed, none of the theist here have taken it upon themselves, to excuse and or explain away what appears to me to be Jesus' double standards.

Did you know that Abraham and the righteous Lot's possessions were so great that they had to find more land? Genesis 13

And did you know that Isaac inherited his father’s wealth and riches and it continued to grow and to the point where the Philistines once politely asked him to move because he’d gotten all “too powerful” (Genesis 26:16). Isaac moved, but he couldn’t seem to stop accumulating wealth.

Jesus keeps rather quiet on these matters while telling others : "if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well ".Matthew 5:40

#9

ethang5

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ethang5

01.03.2021 08:36PM

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@EtrnlVw

If you're always going to use only stupid examples your perception will always be stupid. Some men can't adapt and learn new things, it's almost as if they're intellectually impaired so they regurgitate the same stupid things regardless if they are relevant.

Hey EtrmlVw, I think our boy may be suffering from slight autism. It's hard to explain his posts otherwise.

#10

Tradesecret

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01.03.2021 10:14PM

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@FLRW

And now he is making Biden president. Gee go figure.

#11

Tradesecret

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01.03.2021 11:21PM

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@Stephen

Matthew 6:19-20
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

So putting things away for a rainy day is pointless , according to god-Jesus. And one could suppose that would make sense if the end was indeed, nigh? 1 Peter 4:7

LOL @ Stephen.

No wonder you are such a confused person. Jesus is not saying - "don't put things away for a rainy day". What an absolutely weird and obtuse way of understanding what Jesus is saying. Jesus is comparing the earth with heaven. The temporary with the eternal. He is saying you cannot rely upon the temporary in the eternals. HE is pretty much indicating that if your focus here on earth is to get rich, then you will miss the boat. There are other things which are far more important to focus on now. In other words he is saying "don't make getting rich or wealthy in your life - your most important goal".

I wonder then why is it that members of his "chosen people" were showered in riches beyond the dreams of any poor widow that has had her house stolen from her by the deceit of Chaplains, Priests and Pastors in "fancy robes" ? Luke 20:47

Now you don't need to wonder anymore - because your premise is wrong. The poor widow in the temple by the way was being compared to the pharisees and other wealthy religious people - the former put into the plate out of her poverty. The latter gave only what was expected - out of their wealth. In other words, the former had her eyes on eternal matters - and the latter on temporal ones. Essentially Jesus' message is the same in both verses.

I also accept that in some parts of Christianity - some church leaders are cheating and deceiving ordinary and vulnerable people in the community. The Prosperity Doctrine theology seen in congregations such as Hillsong and on many of the television shows is not only heresy, but needs to be stamped out. There is no excuse for their behaviour - but what they teach is not biblical nor what the Christian church has taught from the beginning. Money and wealth is not evil. IT is when greed and the love of it that makes it an idol that is the problem. It is one of the things that those in other parts of the church constantly are battling. These tv evangelists use guilt manipulation - they focus on the prosperity. They teach falsely - "come to Jesus and everything will be ok". Yet the church has historically taught that suffering is a normal part of the Christian walk.

If we take just one example: Solomon.

Solomon was a king of Israel. Kings inherently tend to have more than most. Solomon was also a very wise man who made lots of connections around the world and contracts as well. It would in fact be an oddity for a king not to have riches.

The list of his riches is simply mind boggling,it really is. Just one visit from one foreign dignitary earned him:

1 Kings 10:10- 29
10 And she gave the king 120 talents[of gold, large quantities of spices, and precious stones. Never again were so many spices brought in as those the queen of Sheba gave to King Solomon.
11 (Hiram’s ships brought gold from Ophir; and from there they brought great cargoes of almugwood and precious stones.
14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents,

It was a staggering amount. And that is the point isn't? Solomon was the Son of David. Solomon's kingdom became the highpoint of Israel's history, geographically, in wealth, and might and power. Don't miss the significance however of the 666 talents of gold. It's an obvious reference to the height of humanity in its pride. And one reason that the writer of Revelation picked it up later.

16 King Solomon made two hundred large shields of hammered gold; six hundred shekels of gold went into each shield. 17 He also made three hundred small shields of hammered gold, with three minas of gold in each shield. The king put them in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon.

18 Then the king made a great throne covered with ivory and overlaid with fine gold. .................
21 All King Solomon’s goblets were gold, and all the household articles in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon were pure gold.

Absolutely! The picture is of overwhelming prosperity. Almost too good to be true. An obvious link to the blessings of God - heaven on earth.

Don't laugh , but 21 >>> "Nothing was made of silver, because silver was considered of little value in Solomon’s days" . Apparently, silver to Solomon , was as common as "stones on the ground".

Yes, it goes with the image - streets made of gold.

23 King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth. —articles of silver and gold, robes, weapons and spices, and horses and mules.
27 The king made silver as common in Jerusalem as stones,

Well if that one example didn't make your eyes water then nothing will.

It is overwhelming and almost indulgent in its extent. And yet this is the picture presented of the Son of David -and the glory of God's people at its height in the nation of Israel. I think it is impressive.

Jesus tells us that: " it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."Matthew 19:24
He instructed a man that was rich to give away all his worldly goods to "the poor" Matthew 19:21 <<< again, what would be the point of the poor having this rich mans hard earned wealth if the end was nigh?

I find it amusing that now you have referenced the end of the world a couple of times now. Obviously that is part of your dilemma - that flows out of a faulty view.

Jesus was not anti-wealth. Nor was he concerned about the end of the world - literally. If you knew your OT scriptures, you would know that the end of the world occurs on many occasions - yet not the literal world. In fact when Christ came, and the temple eventually destroyed it was the end of the world - the end of the covenant between God and Israel. Not literally but covenantally. There is that word again. IT was the end of the age. As Jesus put it - or as the writer of Hebrews put it - Jesus died and was crucified once and for all at the end of the age.

Nevertheless, Jesus' point in the above verse is that rich man don't have a right to go to heaven. The disciples understood this to mean "no one can go to heaven". Matthew 19: 25. And Jesus confirms that in the next verse where he indicated that impossible things for man are possible for God. It is not an argument against wealth per se - but again about focusing on wealth as an end on this earth. When wealth and money become an idol, then you are focused on earthly things not heavenly things. If wealth is an idol, get rid of it. And that is Jesus' message here to the rich man. Wealth is your idol. If you want to follow me - get rid of your idol. The disciples on the other hand had a distorted view of wealth. They thought that wealth, like the people in the book of Job, was a sign of God's blessing. And therefore gave you a first in policy into Heaven. Jesus dispels that completely by saying - it is impossible for anyone to get into heaven without the help of God.

And Jesus appears to have surrounded himself with rich men and women and people of influence?

This is not accurate. Jesus was surrounded by both rich and poor people. He was surrounded by righteous and drunkards and prostitutes.

Yet the one thing they had all in common was a humility before God that meant that they had threw their idols away. And the rich people were not focused on their wealth but on the eternal things of God.

So we see on the one hand , Jesus telling everyone else to give away everything, while on the other he has rich friends and says nothing about the obscene wealth of Solomon, one of his own chosen people.

Well, again you read into things which do not exist. Jesus never tells EVERYONE to give EVERYTHING away. HE constantly tells his disciples that they need to focus on eternal things and not let the earthly things become idols. Whether that be family, or money, or jobs, or power, - all can become idols. Matthew 19: 29 brings that out very clearly.

#12

ethang5

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01.04.2021 01:04AM

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@Tradesecret

Good post!

#13

EtrnlVw

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01.04.2021 02:19AM

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@ethang5

Hey EtrmlVw, I think our boy may be suffering from slight autism. It's hard to explain his posts otherwise.

If I've learned anything in these forums over the years, its never to doubt Mr. Ethan's looney radar. As usual you're probably right on the money.

#14

zedvictor4

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01.04.2021 11:29AM

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@Stephen

@Tradesecret

Mr E is easily impressed.

I would suggest, just the same old, same old difference of opinion and interpretation.

Hey....Am I spoiling the theists pat on the back party.

Allow me to pat you on the back Stephen.

#15

EtrnlVw

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01.04.2021 12:23PM

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@zedvictor4

Hey....Am I spoiling the theists pat on the back party.

Don't play dumb Victor, we all know which group likes to pat themselves on the back and smack their fellow henchmen on the hiney.

Allow me to pat you on the butt Stephen.

LOL

#16

Tradesecret

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01.05.2021 12:37AM

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@zedvictor4

Hi Zedman -

I thank you for taking the time to tag me in your post.

I feel quite privileged really. Please feel free to pat Stephen on the back. He truly needs the encouragement.

I really don't understand why you continue to put this down to interpretation and opinion. I say - read the facts in the stories - not just inject into it what is not there.

What is the point of continually demonstrating that God is both full of love and mercy but also prepared to punish and discipline as though it is a dilemma?

The two are not contradictory. The two don't demonstrate a split personality. Nor does it mean that they are two different gods struggling in a cosmic battle.

Love is demonstrated not just with a kiss but also with discipline. They go hand in hand.

#17

zedvictor4

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01.05.2021 06:53AM

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@Tradesecret

Hi Trade.

Well, above you have just given a perfect example, of an exaggerated, personal interpretation.

Stephen just points out the literal discrepancies.

Whereas you take the literal discrepancies and turn them into something completely different to suit your theistic condition.

Kiss and discipline hey....I'm sure that there's a name for people, who are so inclined.

What do you get up to in the basement?

#18

zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

01.05.2021 07:35AM

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@EtrnlVw

See above for theistic back patting.

Though be careful....Mr E was admonished and temporarily cast into the wilderness for making such inappropriate suggestions.

Be certain of Stephens proclivities, before you start butt patting him.

#19

Tradesecret

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Tradesecret

01.05.2021 10:25PM

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@zedvictor4

The problem is that he does not point out the literal interpretation. If that was the case I would have no issue with it. To demonstrate this - why don't you show me where he has provided even one case.

BTW - I provided a case of what I consider to be a literal inconsistency. And there is much more strength to this inconsistency than anything Stephen has produced.

Stephen tends to rely upon "silence" as opposed to actual literal inconsistencies. For instance - the child John the Baptist was not even in the same region as the soldiers sent by Herod. Yet Stephen insists the child was in danger. Why? because Stephen wants to see something which is not there. There is no literal inconsistency. There is no inconsistency at all - unless Stephen can demonstrate that John was in the same region as the soldiers were sent.

Now if John the B was in the same region, then I would think someone might reasonably ask - why was John not killed when all the other children 2 and under were killed? And that assumes John was 2 or under. And I am prepared to consider he was within the right age for this to take place. But even when it was pointed out - where John was - and Stephen himself quoted the verse - he still fails to connect the dots. The hill country of Judea is not in the region of Bethlehem.

That zedman is a fact - not an interpretation. I actually am not turning anything into purposes for my theistic position. As I have said previously, I begin with harmonization not with inconsistency. Christians begin with the book is God's word. Non-Christians begin with "It is not". The former sees the harmony. The latter seeks only the discrepancy. Why is it that Christians only see the good God - and why non-Christians only see the evil god? And this is consistent around the world and is a dilemma yet to be explored or explained satisfactorily.

#20

zedvictor4

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01.06.2021 06:19AM

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@Tradesecret

You have presented an interpretation of what is an unverifiable series, of what might or might not be, actual events.

As far as I am concerned, in this particular instance, Stephen has done the same.

Which is my ongoing issue with yours and Stephens discourse.

Though the extent to which you will exaggerate interpretation to suit, varies according to how literally Stephen presents text.

I support Stephen because he shows the bible for what it is.......Maybe based upon real people and real places, though events are variously interpreted and sometimes contradictory.... Events are often embellished with fantasy, for the purposes of explanation, when knowledge and logic has been exhausted.

In short folklore or myth.......Woven into what is an already common and well established, basic GOD principle/creation hypothesis.

My interpretation:

The heavens and the Earth were created by a mystical man....And our specific representative of the mystical man, just happens to be the 2 years old, illegitimate son of an itinerant carpenter, who currently resides down the road in Bethlehem....But they're off to Egypt tomorrow because an angel told them to go.....(95% fiction, 5% fact and 100% up to you and anyone else, to make of it what you or they will)

Oh and his 2 and a bit years old mate John or Yohanan or whatever, is currently hiding in the hills with his mum...Because Herod and his soldiers are a bit stupid and a bit lacking and will give up in no time, as they are underfunded and do not have the manpower or resources to be able to deal with every speeding family on a donkey.

Typical underfunding of the Police....(Now where have I heard that before).

And interestingly at 2 and a bit, he's already J the B...No, not John the baby...The baptist...Amazing kid is little John....Especially as "baptist" is a relatively modern expression.

So confusing.

#21

Tradesecret

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01.06.2021 07:12AM

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@zedvictor4

John is not hiding in the hills. the geography of that place is many miles away from Bethlehem. It is like saying that John was hiding in the Rocky Mountains because the soldiers were attacking Jesus in Texas. It is nonsense.

I call John the B - John the B when he was a child to distinguish him from the author of the book whose name is also John.

He was not the B when he was a child obviously.

I am not presenting anything that cannot be verified. I am simply reading the story in its narrative. I am not presenting it like it is true or not - I am attempting to read it as the author wrote it.

Like any book written by any person - the author had an intention. His intention was to demonstrate that Jesus fled to Egypt in line with the prophecies. There is no indication that John was in danger from the narrative. Since John the B ended up baptizing Jesus 30 odd years later - we can see he was not killed by Herod's men.

I personally attempt to understand what the author is attempting to say. I don't have a particular narrative I have to follow. But I will not ignore church tradition simply because someone comes up with a novel idea. Stephen's idea is novel. Yet it does not fit with John the B' living in the hills. That is my point. And I am not interpreting it any different to the narrative itself.

#22

zedvictor4

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01.06.2021 03:49PM

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@Tradesecret

Yes I fully understand that you attempt to interpret a variously translated and re-interpreted narrative...But you interpret a specific narrative (your chosen version), with a specific intention, and therefore not necessarily with an open mind.

As for the author/authors/compilers....Well, there's another can of 2000 year old worms.

#23

ronjs

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01.06.2021 04:45PM

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@FLRW

There is a lot of misinformation concerning these mythical gods, many stories have altered to make Christ look like a copy but they have been refuted easily.

#24

Polytheist-Witch

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01.06.2021 04:55PM

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While I have no reason to tell Christians what to do I have come to the decision that the Father Jesus refers to is not the God of Abraham and he is basically a Buddha type figure. His message is completely contradictory to the Old Testament.

#25

ronjs

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01.06.2021 07:10PM

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@Polytheist-Witch

How so? Examples would help.

#26

Polytheist-Witch

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01.06.2021 07:41PM

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@ronjs

I am not able to do exact quotes right now but in general.

Jesus says to consider those outside Judaism your brother as in the story of the Good Samaritan. He says you can work and should on the Sabbath. He states that thoughts are sins or violations of the law and therefore you can't ever not sin. She asks for his men to spread the word of His message, not the message of the Old Testament. He claims only two commandments matter compared to the 10 and long list of the abominations in the Old Testament.

Also, Jesus who is a learned man and called rabbi never once wrote down a thing himself but would have been able to write if a learned man of the cloth. Seems fishy to me.

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ethang5

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ethang5

01.07.2021 12:28AM

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@Tradesecret

Surely you've noticed that the Z-man is not interested in a logical look at the topic?

Like all of them, he has come here looking for attention. The content of the exchanges don't matter, as long as they can get you to notice them. Why else would an atheist come to a religion board and repeat the same "I don't believe in God" post over and over?

I noticed in Jesus day He was always being approached by non-believers. I know what the attraction was for those seeking God, but what was the attraction for atheists? I wondered about that till I logged onto a public religion board on the net.

Satan goes to and fro about the Earth seeking......

Zed couldn't care less about whether Stephen is honest or correct. In fact, he doesn't care about Stephen at all. All he wants is another opportunity to drone his mantra again. "I don't believe in God." For some reason, they think that bit of info is endlessly fascinating to theists.

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Tradesecret

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@ethang5

Hi Ethang,

I guess I hold an optimistic position that people generally want to know the truth.

You may be correct that he is only here seeking attention. Yet who knows - God works in mysterious ways.

What is "Jesus day"? Is it another forum?

I suspect you are correct about Zedman's view about Stephen. Yet, I suppose he was suddenly alone and felt he had to step it up abit for his fellow atheists. More power to him.

Thanks for the advice. Helpful as always.

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ronjs

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@Polytheist-Witch

Don't know what you are getting at but it sounds as if you are not reading carefully.