Barabbas. More Lies!

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 89
#61
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
I don’t need “scraps” you clown. 
I don't think Keith threw them at you because you needed them.

I have enough evidence to prove these gospels are so unreliable that they should be slung in the nearest bin.
Yet instead they are revered, studied, memorized, and quoted the world over. Frustrating huh?

Stop Putting words into his mouth.
I quoted him word for word.

He has answered and he, in truth cannot come off the fence or make up his mind. 
If a blunt "No" seems equivocal to you, OK.

I will ask you again. Is Mark's gospel wrong, yes or no.
You are wrong. Not Mark's gospel. Your loony imagination is wrong, not Mark's gospel. Now ask again, so I can tell you in yet another way the you are wrong.

Both Of these Jesus' were charged with sedition and both went to the cross for it. FACT
Untrue. There was only one Jesus, and Barabbas was released. Perhaps you should read a real bible and not the skeptic's annotated? You will seem less ignorant that way.
#62
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@keithprosser
...there's no end to the scenarios that can be invented to fit.
As demonstrated by our inventor savant.

It seems that you're proposing Jesus and Barabbas were co-conspirators -  I'd say that was 'interesting, but flimsy'!
And also not in the text. Oops!
Topic's author
#63
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@keithprosser
According To the text, the Priests condemned Jesus for blasphemy but - unable to execute him themselves –
 
I have shown that this has to be false at post 42 above: >>

“We get from the gospellers that the Jewish council was not allowed to pass death sentences and  this  is the reason they took him to Pilate. This is just lies. They stoned Stephen to death, Jesus’ brother James the Just was "thrown from the pinnacle of the temple, and was beaten to death with a club".  The wanted to stone an adulteress, until Jesus stepped in with his famous “ he who is without sin cast the first stone” .So we can see , this story about Pilate being kind to Jews at Passover and letting murdering rebel go free, is cobblers”
 
 And You as you have admitted yourself, that Pilate would not be bothered or even interested about Jews scratching each other’s eyes out about their own god being insulted/blasphemy. Besides Rome had its own  " living god" Tiberius Caesar Divi Augusti filius Augustus..
took Jesus to Pilate to rubber stamp the execution  - the grounds for execution under Roman law is not stated in the text.
 
The text are maybe benot clearly enough to you but you admit they are ambiguous.. Fair enough, but you know it was he was not executed for blasphemy. So what else can you imagine he was crucified for?
In the text,Pilate is reluctant to execute an innocent man, and only does so finally 'under protest'.
 
But it is said Pilate couldn't find ANYTHING wrong about him and neither could Herod. Yet We know that according to the scripture Herod wanted to kill Jesus.  so again we come across a blatant lie IN THE SCRIPTURES. These are contradictory BIBLICAL facts.

And there's absolute no historical evidence for this Passover get out of jail free card that is said by the scriptures to be    “a common practice”. And no way would Pilate give into a baying mob and free anyone for such a serious crime of “insurrection” against the Empire.. He would have been summoned back to Rome himself and probably executed for treason.
 
 
 
It seems that you're proposing Jesus and Barabbas were co-conspirators -  I'd say that was 'interesting, but flimsy'!
 
Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. And I believe the circumstances prove that. 
 
 
or even if even happened at all. 
This is interesting point of view. If you are of that belief then by default you have to dismiss the whole story as false.

If you don't believe Jesus even existed then you have to dismiss the whole of  scriptures as fake and not even bother putting up an argument either way.

There are literally hundreds of statements like these below from Biblical historians, theologist respected biblical authors and members of the clergy, who all agree that Jesus was charged with sedition and insurrection. Is all the theist have  in response is one single ambiguous vers in the whole of the bible, that proves nothing ..at all.
 
 
  "Barabbas had been charged with the crime of treason against Rome—the same crime for which Jesus was also convicted".<<<<<<< see that.
 

The sentencing practices of the Romans were that execution by crucifixion was for political crimes, treason, sedition, and such. Jesus being a “rabble-rouser” and not denying Pilate’s questioning about being the “king of the Jews” thus fits the style of execution.



#64
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
Both Of these Jesus' were charged with sedition and both went to the cross for it. FACT
I'm not sure how you are defining 'fact' here!  Jesus getting cruficied is an episode in a written tale and at this distance in time there is no way to know if it 'really happened' at all.

The only indisputable fact is that the gospellers wrote that Jesus was cruficied by the Romans - with some reluctance - at the behest of the Jewish priests.

So we can infer that when the gospels were being compiled the early Christian church was more interested in fostering good relations with the Roman world than in its Jewish roots.  About the actual events - and people - described we can infer nothing with certainty.  The trial by Pilate could be anything from a near vertabatim account to a complete fabrication.  I'd guess its nearer the latter because the gospels were not written by uninterested, detached historians but by committed, partisan and passionate Christians.   But I don't like to speculate about 'what really happened' because AFAICT there is no way of knowing.   All we know it that early Christians wanted to present things as happening that way.   




#65
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
I'm not sure how you are defining 'fact' here!  
Here's how. Imagination.

Not to worry. He will just reprint the verses, and then claim they support his his loony ideas. Wala! (Thanks bully!)
Topic's author
#66
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@keithprosser

The only indisputable fact is that the gospellers wrote that Jesus was cruficied by the Romans.
yes they do. the other indisputable fact is that BARRABAS was on a charge of "insurrection" BECAUSE : the gospellers wrote that aslo .


Ok now we understand that we are only speaking of what the gospels actually say;  lets back up a little here.

This is what ethang5 started out disputing post 12 page ..

ethang5 wrote; Nowhere does it say Barnabas' crimes were against Rome. 
He, for reasons known only to him, had read Barabbas as Barnabas. It took quite a while for it to sinkin that I was in fact talking of the seditionist Barabbas.  It seems even the title of the thread couldn’t convince him as to who the thread was about.

This is what I wrote in my Opening post 1.
Mark 15:7. 
And There was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that handmade insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
 
When it finally sunk in to  ethang 5’s  skull that I was in fact talking about BARABBAS, but apart from insisting that it was I who had brought            BAR N ABAS  into the thread he still insisted that Barabbas had not  committed crimes “ insurrection” against Rome.
 
 I have asked ethang5  six times now, to tell me who  were his crimes of “insurrection” committed against if BARABBAS’S crimes were not against Rome? He has ignored . I have asked you too but you seem to keep missing it.

So Keith, I Ask you, the same question.

Who were the crimes of “insurrection” committed against if BARABBAS’S crimes were not against Rome?

Jesus getting crucified is an episode in a written tale and at this distance in time there is no way to know if it 'really happened' at all.
 Yes. And you keep saying it is a "written tale" and I keep telling you that the Christians believe this “written tale”. So “distance in time” is not an issue with them. So from that standpoint, the Christian standpoint who believe the "tale" to be true, who did Barabbas commit “insurrection against?

Do you or don't you believe this trial even happened?
And. Do you believe that the  Jesus of the gospels ever existed? Yes or No?



Topic's author
#67
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
So we can infer that when the gospels were being compiled the early Christian church was more interested in fostering good relations with the Roman world than in its Jewish Roots. 

We have already come to that conclusion. We have gone over that twice. It has already been discussed and I have told you I believe this to be the case.

 Jews died during this rebellion that the writers want to hide or at least play down. This wouldn't look very good now would it, the prince of peace taking part in rebellious acts that caused the deaths of his own countrymen and supporters? 
 
What some New Testament readers may not be aware of is that claiming to be “King of the Jews”was a highly charged political act of sedition or lese-majesty, and a capital crime under Roman law if it led to rebellion, and, this is what happened and the gospel writers have tried to play it down. WHY!?  The question is as obvious as the answer is as I have already explained and as you have said yourself in the quote  above.

Look at this blatant lie King James Bible Luke 23:2

And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

 Now we know, this to be untrue because there is the render unto Caesar verse telling jews to pay this tax. he is also calling himself king of the Jews according to verse also : a crime of sedition.. He is also accused of "PERVERTING" the nation and leading them "astray", what does the mean or entail?   
#68
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Stephen
Jesus told the truth.

People didn't like that.

Jesus was killed in an attempt to censor him.

It didn't work, and fast forward 2000 years we are still talking about Jesus.

Sounds like the resurrecting power of Jesus.

You can kill a truth, but killing a truth doesn't kill The Truth.


#69
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Stephen

The only indisputable fact is that the gospellers wrote that Jesus was cruficied by the Romans.
yes they do. the other indisputable fact is that BARRABAS was on a charge of "insurrection" BECAUSE : the gospellers wrote that aslo .
I would say that it is entirely possible that Barabbas never existed and was invented by the gospellers to make a good story.   I don't know how anyone can tell if Barabbas was 'real' or not.

It is an indisputable fact that the gospellers say Barabbas was charged with insurrection - but that isn't the same thing as Barabbas being charged with insurrection is a fact.




Topic's author
#70
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@keithprosser
I would say that it is entirely possible that Barabbas never existed 
 
So his part,BARABBAS' part in the story gives you reason to believe it may have been invented,  in other words fake?
 
It is an indisputable fact that the gospellers say Barabbas was charged with insurrection
 
It is "indisputable" and they do "say". And Christians believe the story to be true because the gospels do "say" it was insurrection committed by Barabbas.
 
 And Who do you think Barabbas committed "insurrection" against if  it wasn't against Rome as ethang5 believes? 
 
but that isn't the same thing as Barabbas being charged with insurrection is afact.
 
But the “indisputable”fact is that the bible scribes do say it was  Barabbas that committed insurrection and it is also an "indisputable fact" that Christians Believe the bible.
 
But even going by your standard, it is also an “indisputable” fact, as you say,  that the gospellers ALSO wrote that Jesus was crucified by the Romans  and this too, going by your own reasoning, could just be a case of the "tale" as you put it, never happened at all. 
 
You didn’t bother again to answer my questions.

Do you or don't you believe this trial even happened?
 
I would say that it is entirely possible that Barabbas never existed and was invented by the gospellers to make a good story. 
 
 Not impossible, I agree, But you keep purposefully ignoring my point completely that these gospels are believed by Christians and it is from this    standpoint they can to be challenged. You keep skirting this fact everytime I point it out.
 
I don’t know why you simply do not come off the fence and say one way or the other that the scriptures are “tales” that cannot be verified or be true.
 
 You either believe in Jesus christ or you don't.  your other post on other threads shows you clearly to be an atheist, so why are you fence sitting on this particular subject?
 Do you believe that the  Jesus of the gospels ever existed? Yes or No?
 

#71
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
Not impossible, I agree, But you keep purposefully ignoring my point completely that these gospels are believed by Christians and it is from this    standpoint they can to be challenged. You keep skirting this fact everytime I point it out.
Yeah Keith, why do you keep skirting this "fact"?

Do you believe that the  Jesus of the gospels ever existed? Yes or No?
Yeah Keith. Stop being mealy-mouthed. Quit the slick doublespeak.

I told you that running to "it's all fantasy" after pretending the story is true to make your fake interpretation seem reasonable was unethical. If the story is untrue, your silly personal opinion of the subplots are also untrue. You can't have both.
Topic's author
#72
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@ethang5
You can't have both.
I am not asking for anything of the sort. It is your fault that you don't have a clue as to what is going on in these gospels, not mine.
Keith has shown his reluctance to commit himself either way so just repeats his fall back mantra to the effect that - 'he wasn't there 2,000 years and neither was you or I so we will never know'.

And you haven't answered my question :
 Who did Barabbas commit "insurrection " against if it wasn't the Roman Empire.
#73
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
I am not asking for anything of the sort.
The post was not addressed to you genius.

It is your fault that you don't have a clue as to what is going on in these gospels, not mine.
Lol. You don't even know what posts are addressed to you, but OK.

Keith has shown his reluctance to commit himself either way so just repeats his fall back mantra to the effect that - 'he wasn't there 2,000 years and neither was you or I so we will never know'.
Keith knows what facts are.

And you haven't answered my question :Who did Barabbas commit "insurrection " against if it wasn't the Roman Empire.

The Jewish state.
Topic's author
#74
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@ethang5
You don't even know what posts are addressed to you, but OK.
 
Of course I do you absolute clown. And I will responded to any post I choose on my thread.
 
Keith knows what facts are.
 
Does he?  he has made his position quite clear, he states he doesn't know and neither does anyone else and  that includes you ,a clown. I though he told us everything is “conjecture” where these scriptures are concerned and the only facts he can agree with is the scriptures state certain things that are not believed by himself he adds “ because we will never know the truth of what happened.” .How’s that for a factual contradictory fence sitting, you clown.
Stephen wrote:And You haven't answered my question :Who did Barabbas commit "insurrection" against if it wasn't the Roman Empire.

 

ethang5 wrote: The Jewish state.

Ok.  Now let us see all your evidence . Run along now Tick tock, Tick tock, Tick tock,

#75
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
Stop being dramatic. No one is being interrogated by you. No one is under any clock to answer you. You aren't that important.

You may address any post you like, but to answer as if the post was directed at you is silly. Telling me that "you are not asking any such thing" is ludicrous when no one claimed you were. The post was not directed to you. 

Ok.  Now let us see all your evidence . 
It's in the text. You know the text where you're getting the story from in the first place? Remember that?

Lol.
Topic's author
#76
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@ethang5
No one is being interrogated by you.
hahahhahah "Interrogated".   Just as I Suspected, you don’t have single piece of evidence for your stupid claim. So you just make something up. It has taken you nearly four pages of posts to come up with that nonsense.   “ Against the Jewish state”  my hole, hahhahahahha, what a plonker you are.
It's in the text.
 So you will not have any trouble showing it to us all, will you , you clown. 

#77
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
You have the text. Read it.

I know it makes you angry to have your fakery exposed. But you will have to live with it. Even your fellow atheist has corrected you. Your loony imagination will just not fly.

You post nonsense, you will get called on it.

#78
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
Now Now boys.
Drink your milk and off to bed.
And mummy will read you some more fairy stories tomorrow.

Night Night. XX
Topic's author
#79
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@ethang5
You have the text. Read it.

I do. and BARABBAS  and Jesus were up on charges of   "insurrection" against Rome and you cannot prove otherwise.

Here you go.

Mark 15:7. 
And There was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.

 Caiaphas claimed that Jesus was guilty of sedition.
Jesus, Caiaphas had said, Jesus thought himself, and his followers thought, and people said that he was the King of the Jews. This was a capital crime against Rome and Pilate had to deal with it whether he wanted to or not.


"His crime was claiming to be a king, a treasonous act in ancient Rome". Jerry Newcombe For God and Country website..<<<< this is a guy who understands his scriptures, unlike you , you silly little clown
 And I'm still waiting for your evidence that shows that this "get out of crucifixion card" was a "common custom" of Rome at Passover.

Get over it you clown, you have been licked with your own stick. AGAIN!!!!
#80
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
Basically, all you do is post the verse and then say it says something it doesn't say.

If Jesus or Barabbas were Roman prisoners, they could not have been offered to the Jews for release. Think man.

You have poor reading comprehension. In the sentence, "that had made insurrection with him,"   the "him" is Barabbas because Barabbas is the subject. But I guess you didn't learn grammar in high school.

I don't have to show you anything if it is in the text. The text says it was common custom. Do you have any evidence it wasn't?

Follow the text genius. That is where the story comes from. That is where you are to get your information. Stop being clueless.


#81
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@ethang5
A book that claims a flood covered Mt Everest,hahahahaha, also makes other spurious claims and the likes of you believe those claims. Oh dear.
Topic's author
#82
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
Basically, all you do is post the verse and then say it says something it doesn't say.

No I don't. I post many verses and then give my opinion on them. I also ask questions that never get answered. 

 Verses Like This:

 Jesus celebrate the Passover with his disciples before his crucifixion according to the Synoptics. John says it  was the Passover feast on the very evening Jesus was crucified as the Pascal Lamb ?   Only one can be right - if any.

Questions Like this:

Why didn't Jesus "raise " his cousin the great prophet John the Baptist from the "dead" as he did Lazarus?

Why didn't Jesus  eradicate all of leprosy  instead of just a few lepers?
Topic's author
#83
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
If Jesus or Barabbas were Roman prisoners, they could not have been offered to the Jews for release.

 I agree, this is why I know there was no such thing as Pilates pardon, you clown.

The text says it was common custom.
And not a single piece of evidence. The scriptures say a lot a things that simple are not true. 
#84
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
That is why it is revered and honored around the world and no one knows you. 

I don't have time for bitter people imagining nonsensical things. You want to take the trial from the script, but not the pardon. Silly. Go cherry pick in your orchard.

Only logic is allowed here.

Topic's author
#85
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@ethang5
That is why it is revered and honored around the world and no one knows you. 

It is because it is taught by others and but not read by those others.

I don't have time for bitter people imagining nonsensical things

You could have fooled me. Sod off  if you can't cope with the pressure. Or simply put me on ignore. 

You want to take the trial from the script, but not the pardon.

That's right. I believe Jesus was tried under Roman law by Romans and sentenced to a Roman execution for crimes against the State of ROME!!.  AND The so called pardon never happened. Congratulations!  You are learning!!!

Now tackle these simple questions;
 Jesus celebrate the Passover with his disciples before his crucifixion according to the Synoptics. John says it  was the Passover feast on the very evening Jesus was crucified as the Pascal Lamb ?   Only one can be right - if any.

Questions Like this:

Why didn't Jesus "raise " his cousin the great prophet John the Baptist from the "dead" as he did Lazarus?

Why didn't Jesus  eradicate all of leprosy  instead of just curing  a few lepers?

#86
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
That is why it is revered and honored around the world and no one knows you. 

It is because it is taught by others and but not read by those others.
You aren't taught. Jealous much?

I don't have time for bitter people imagining nonsensical things

You could have fooled me.
A third grader could have fooled you.

Sod off  if you can't cope with the pressure.
Lol. What pressure?

Or simply put me on ignore. 
Why would I do that? You are entertainment. I love seeing the smart atheists fume each time you post one of your laughably silly conspiracy theories.

You want to take the trial from the script, but not the pardon.

That's right.

I know. That is illogical. You should not be proud of it.

I believe....
I don't really care for what gibberish you believe. I care what the bible says. And until you start posting sense, my opinion of what you think will remain the same.

This is a no fakery zone.
Topic's author
#87
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
I don't really care for what gibberish you believe.
That is gibberish


I care what the bible says.

So do I . That is why I'm always questioning it. 

my opinion of what you think will remain the same
 Yes I know. I didn't ever expect anything different from you. And I wouldn't want it any other way.

Now tackle these simple questions;
 Jesus celebrate the Passover with his disciples before his crucifixion according to the Synoptics. John says it  was the Passover feast on the very evening Jesus was crucified as the Pascal Lamb ?   Only one can be right - if any.

Questions Like this:

Why didn't Jesus "raise " his cousin the great prophet John the Baptist from the "dead" as he did Lazarus?

Why didn't Jesus  eradicate all of leprosy  instead of just curing  a few lepers?

☺☺☺☺☺

#88
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Stephen
That's right. I believe Jesus was tried under Roman law by Romans and sentenced to a Roman execution for crimes against the State of ROME!!.

That isn't in dispute!   But the gospels imply that the insurrection charge was only a fudge to make the execution legal.

Topic's author
#89
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,608
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@keithprosser
That isn't in dispute!   
It is in dispute or are you not reading what etheng has to say.  I have covered all I can with you on this and is all you have done is sit on the fence and repeat over and over "we will never know" or words to that effect. Why you are even bothering to be on this thread any longer is beyond me.

Jesus was executed by Romans  and in Roman fashion. The elders could have stoned him themselves if  the charges were blasphemy and simply waited until after passover with no need to bother  Pilate. 

Claiming to be king was an crime against Rome and punishable by death.  
There are many religious scholars who agree that Jesus was charged with sedition against Rome.

Caiaphas claimed that Jesus was guilty of sedition.
Jesus, Caiaphas had said, Jesus thought himself, and his followers thought, and people said that he was the King of the Jews. This was a capital crime against Rome and Pilate had to deal with it whether he wanted to or not. 


"His crime was claiming to be a king, a treasonous act in ancient Rome". Jerry Newcombe For God and Country website..<<<< this is a guy who understands his scriptures.


ethang will have it that nothing was wrong about the way the scriptures tell this story. You sit on the fence and only offer conjecture when it suits you to  do so, yet you make your position quite clear on the matter, ' you don't believe any of it' . 
 So whatever you have to say on the matter can be dismissed by default of your own beliefs and counts for absolutely nothing.