Barabbas. More Lies!

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Yes you did. You saidBarabbas..."committed sedition against Rome..."That is untrue. 
 
Nope it is not untrue . tocommit “insurrection “is to also commit sedition.
 
Mark15:7. 
And There wasone named Barabbas, which lay bound with them thathad madeinsurrection with him, who had committed murder intheinsurrection.
 
I know I'm correct. Barabbas hadnot been charged with a crime against Rome.
 Doyou now,
TheAramaic Bible has to say about BARABBAS; take your pick they were in front ofPilate for both crimes
 
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And therewas one who was called Barabbas, who was bound with those who had madesedition, who had committed murder in the sedition.
KingJames 2000 Bible
And therewas one named Barabbas, who lay bound with them that had made insurrection withhim, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
 
In Matthew 27:16 Barabbas is called a“notorious prisoner.” In Mark 15:7, echoed in Luke 23:19, he was “in prison with therebels who had committed murder duringthe insurrection” against the occupying Roman forces.
Encyclopaedia Britannica
 
Theevidence is overwhelming that these were crimes against Rome. If you want todeny that be my guest but you will have to show us who the insurrection wasagainst if it was not Rome. 
 
 
Don’tjust keep calling me a liar. Prove it. Jesus and BARABBAS were broughtbefore   Pilate Both on charges of sedition. Read it again slowly. “thathad made insurrection with him”
 
They BOTHtook part in this biblically documents episode of insurrection , if it wasn’tagainst Rome then who was against. Let us see your evidence for you claims orshut up and go away.
 
I know itnot nice for you to face and a bitter pill for you to swallow. So unless youcan prove Mark's gospel to be  untrue and that this evangelist is telling lies , youwill have to put up with this truth or produce some evidence that MARK’S gospelis fake and untrue.

At least I post what Mark says, I don't hide it and then pretend he said nothing.
 So have I about 6 times now here it is again I am not hiding marks verses, why would i. they prove my point you clown .

Mark 15:7 King James Version (KJV)
And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.


This isyour post 12 on page one. You got all confused with Barnabas and Barabbas, youfool.   Check for yourself Post twelve YOUR POST you mention BARNABAS not me, youclown.
POST 12 ethang5 wrote: Nowheredoes it say Barnabas' crimes were against Rome. This is just anotherlittle"addition" our bible expert has inserted into the text.Barabbas was charged by Jews under Jewish law for violating Jewish law. 
You see. I didn't say BARNABAS   you did. this thread is about BARABBAS. 
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#32
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@keithprosser
What really happened cannot be known or ascertained,
I am not sure to which part or parts you refer. But whether this passover release was true or not it doesn't hide the fact that Jesus Messiah and Jesus BARABBAS were BOTH in front of Pontius Pilate on the charge of "insurrection" the gospels state this clearly. Someone died in that rebellion and Jesus  was there in the thick of it. The scriptures clearly state these facts. 

One simply has to ask why these gospellers have left out this pivotal part of the Jesus story. They are simply trying to push the "prince of  peace" angle and it is falling apart in front of our eyes. All of his chosen 12 were known zealots. But according to ethang5 Mark has made up his story and his gospel isn't true at all.
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I am not sure to which part or parts you refer.
I'm referring to any part and all of it!   The evangelists wrote those passages in the way they wrote them - IMO - to deflect the blame for Jesus' death away from the Romans and onto the Jews.  I think it is impossible to know what -if anything - really happened; the only indisputable fact is that the evangelists wrote the text we see on the page.    Whether the text is true or false -or how true or how false - is unknowable, but the fact the passages exist implies a desire to exonerate Pilate and blame Jewish priests for Jesus' death and shows how Christianity was mutating from a Judadic sect to a gentile - even an anti-jewish - one.
 

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@keithprosser
  The evangelists wrote those passages in the way they wrote them - IMO - to deflect the blame for Jesus' death away from the Romans and onto the Jews. 
Well when we consider "murder, insurrection" which, without doubt was committed against the Rome and  Romans and that crucifixion was strictly a  ROMAN punishment for acts against the state and add Marks comment on the matter, then it all points to you being correct, doesn't it?


I think it is impossible to know what -if anything - really happened;
Of course we won't but you are forgetting that this is  Christian dogma and belief. They believe it. It is up to those who don't believe these scriptures to break this story down and expose it for what it is: false certainly in part.. I believe these two were charged for crimes against the state. I believe as you say, the free pass story is a deflection from Rome's participation. After all , we couldn't have the Roman Church being the murderers of its namesake, the very name the Christian Church is supposedly founded on,  now could we.

Whether the text is true or false -or how true or how false - is unknowable, 
But the Christians believed them to be god inspired gospel truth, so we have to take it from that position and look at these scriptures from that position

but the fact the passages exist implies a desire to exonerate Pilate
I agree. 



#35
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@Stephen
In my experience, believers believe what they want to believe!

It is possible Pilate tried every trick he could think of to get Jesus off, or he could have rubber-stamped his execution without a second thought. or even with sadistic relish.   We don't know what happened -we only know what MML+J say happened.  

Of course for reason for saying 'X happened' is that X really did happen, but IMO there isn't much of that in the Gospels!
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to commit “insurrection “is to also commit sedition.
 
But not necessarily against Rome as you dishonestly assert. Barabbas was a Jewish prisoner, which is why Pilate could release him to the Jews. The Jews had no business with Roman prisoners.

The evidence is overwhelming that these were crimes against Rome.
You just don't know NT history. The Jews could not demand the release of a criminal charged by Rome. The Jewish authorities were aligned with Rome, they had laws forbidding insurrection. Barabbas had committed insurrection against the Jews, not Rome.

Jesus and BARABBAS were brought before   Pilate Both on charges of sedition. 
This does not mean they knew each other or worked together. That is just your overactive imagination again. The text says the charges against Jesus were false.

you will have to put up with this truth or produce some evidence that MARK’S gospelis fake and untrue.
Lol. You are the one saying the text is untrue. You are the one inserting your imagination into the texts. Nowhere does Mark say Jesus and Barabbas were partners, or that Barabbas was charged with insurrection against Rome.

Mark 15:7 King James Version (KJV)
And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
And without logic or reason your poor reading comprehension and bias made you believe "them" meant Jesus and Barabbas, and not Barabbas and those he made insurrection with? OK.

You got all confused with Barnabas and Barabbas, youfool. 
If you are going to be insulting, it helps not to write like a third grader. Why are you angry anyway?

See? Easy and fun.
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@Stephen
So are you going to tell us the underlying story the gospellers are desperately trying to hide?
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@ethang5

You got all confused with Barnabas and Barabbas, youfool. 
If you are going to be insulting, it helps not to write like a third grader. Why are you angry anyway?
Oh dear the embarrassed face of defeat, peaking out from the outbuilding at school.
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#39
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But not necessarily against Rome as you dishonestly assert.
 "Barabbas had been charged with the crime of treason against Rome—the same crime for which Jesus was also convicted".<<<<<<< see that.
 Stop calling me a liar until you believe you have evidence proving me to be liar.  


You haven't produced evidence to the contrary, why is that?  And you haven’t told us or shown any proof to the contrary have you? Why Is that? If it wasn’t against Rome, them who was the insurrection against? You haven't quite managed to work a way around that sticky point ,  have you? I stick to what I know, this insurrection was, without any doubt committed against state of Rome during a rebellion , a rebellion that these gospel writers are trying to play down. 
 
 
 
 
 You are the one saying the text is untrue.
 I have no reason to believe what Mark has tosay on this matter is untrue. Like I have said. It supports my argument and sodo the other three gospels that all mention Barabbas being at the trial along with Jesus ..The  point you just cannot face and is sticking in your throat is that Mark goes further and tells us that Barabbashad committed “insurrection with him” <<<<<You must close your eyes or have a mental blockage when you get to that part.
Mark 15:7. 

And There was one named Barabbas,which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.

This does not mean they knew each other or worked together. 
 
You clown. Read The above, are you saying Mark's gospel is wrong and untrue. Read it again slowly:
“Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him,
And without logic or reason your poor reading comprehension and bias made you believe"them" meant Jesus and Barabbas, 
But it doesn’t say THEM does it you clown. Read it again:
Mark 15:7. 

And there was one named Barabbas,which lay bound with them that had made insurrection WITH HIM, who had committed murder in the insurrection.


So now your turning to bare faced lies. Lies that can be easily confirmed  by anyone by a click of the mouse at their fingertips.
Mark's gospel clearly makes the point that this “insurrection” was committed by both Jesus BARABBAS and JESUS the MESSIAH
 
Why are you angry anyway?
I am not angry. I'm enjoying watching you make some of the biggest ball drops in the history of biblical research. I find you hilarious like a clown, my granddaughter could run rings around you and she's only five.


 
Barabbas had been charged with the crime of treason against Rome—the same crime for which Jesus was also convicted".<<<<<<< see that.  "THE SAME CRIME"
 
 
 
 
 

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@Mopac
So are you going to tell us the underlying story the gospellers are desperately trying to hide?

Not on this thread. This thread is about the rebellious insurrection and  actions and murder, that happened during the rebellion involving Jesus Barabbas and Jesus the Messiah, that caused the deaths of many of his own people. 

It was only via a slip I believe, that we know that there was even a rebellion AT ALL!. If it wasn't for one single verse, in the whole of the gospels, Mark's gospel, one would have thought that Roman and Jew got along just dandy. But we know that not to be true either, don't we?

 And you still haven't told us which Jesus was crucified have you? was it Jesus Barabbas or Jesus the Messiah?
#41
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@Stephen


Historical writings do not paint the relationship between Rome and the Jews as being anything but full of tension and animosity. I'm pretty sure that in the Gospel according to Matthew there is even an account of Herod ordering the execution of all the kids under the age of 2.

So Mr. Gnostic smarty pants, what were the gospel writers desperately trying to hide?



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#42
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In my experience, believers believe what they want to believe!
 
 Not just your experience. I think everyone knows that.
 
It is possible Pilate tried every trick he could think of to get Jesus off,
 
Not with a charge of seduction against Rome. You do agree that this was the charge don’t you?
 
 
 or he could have rubber-stamped his execution without a second thought.
 
Which is the case.
 
or even with sadistic relish.  
More's the case
 
 We don't know what happened -we only know what MML+J say happened.  
Yes you have said that already and   like I have said above, we have to look atthis from the Christian standpoint. They believe the gospels to be the god inspired gospel truth. If these scriptures are to be challenged one can only challenge them on the standpoint Christians believe them to be true.
 
Of course for reason for saying 'Happened' is that X really did happen, but IMO there isn't much of that in the Gospels!
 
But that isn’t quite correct is it. I Agree we do not get a lot of “why X happened”  because like I have said many times, we usually only ever get half stories.
But in this case we do have the crime and we do have the punishment/s.
 
It is beyond doubt that the role of the Romans in Jesus’ execution had to be whitewashed and presented as sympathetically as possible. Thus Pilate is depicted in the Gospels As a decent, reasonable and tolerant man, who consents only reluctantly to the crucifixion.  But history tells us different.
Philo of Alexandria for instance describes Pilates “cruel and sadistic” nature towards the Jews. These Gospel writers have simply taken liberties with history.

We get from the gospellers that the Jewish council was not allowed to pass death sentences and  this  is the reason they took him to Pilate. This is just lies. They stoned Stephen to death, Jesus’ brother James the Just  was "thrown from the pinnacle of the temple, and was beaten to death with a club".  The wanted to stone an adulteress, until Jesus Stepped in with his famous “ he who is without sin cast the first stone” .So we can see , this story about Pilate being kind to Jews at passover and letting a murdering rebel go free, is cobblers.

The Sanhedrin council could have put Jesus to death themselves by stoning had they waited just a few hours after Passover and there would have been no reason to involve Pilate or Rome, at all.

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#43
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Historical writings do not paint the relationship between Rome and the Jews as being anything but full of tension and animosity. 
 HISTORY,  yes it does doesn't it. But one would never know that from reading the scriptures would they.

I'm pretty sure that in the Gospel according to Matthew there is even an account of Herod ordering the execution of all the kids under the age of 2.

There is.  But the thread is not about the relationship between the Herodians/Herod and the Jews. it is clearly about the relationship between ROME and the JEWS.  Why have you not noticed that? No one is even talking about Herod or his crimes. We are discussing the crimes of Jesus Barabbas and Jesus the Messiah. We are discussing Pilates role in the matter of crimes against Rome.  Why are you not understanding this?

So Mr. Gnostic smarty pants, what were the gospel writers desperately trying to hide?
Answered. For christ sake ! read post 40 above.


And you still haven't told us which Jesus was crucified have you? Was it Jesus Barabbas or Jesus the Messiah?

And  could you help me out on this thread?



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#44
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@keithprosser
Amendment to my post 42 above above:
@keithprosser wrote: It is possible Pilate tried every trick he could think of to get Jesus off,
 
Not with a charge of insurrection and sedition against Rome. You do agree that this was the charge don’t you? 
 

#45
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@Stephen
Not with a charge of insurrection and sedition against Rome. You do agree that this was the charge don’t you? 
No. Or sort of!
If official documements ever existed of the 'trial',they may well have specified 'insurrection' rather then 'blasphemy' because i doubt blaspheming YHWH was a crime in Roman law.   But I don't see anything in the text that implies Jesus was charged with insurrection.  In the phrase
"that had made insurrection with him,"  I read the pronoun 'him' as referring to Barabas, (not Jesus) and other translations are less unambiguous

But in general terms you are dead right - a little background reading is all it takes to cast considerable doubt on the veracity of the bible,as if tales gods,virgin births, miracles and  resurrections was not reason enough!



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@Mopac
Historical writings do not paint the relationship between Rome and the Jews as being anything but full of tension and animosity. I'm pretty sure that in the Gospel according to Matthew there is even an account of Herod ordering the execution of all the kids under the age of 2.

And there is no historical mention of this anywhere. The bible is not history. Such an abominable operation would have been recorded by historians of the time.

#47
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@Stephen
Not with a charge of insurrection and sedition against Rome.You do agree that this was the charge don’t you? 
No.
Oops!

because i doubt blaspheming YHWH was a crime in Roman law.
It wasn't. No one knowing NT history would think so.

I don't see anything in the text that implies Jesus was charged with insurrection.
But, if you have a loony agenda, you might. Or you could just insist it's there, even though it's absent in the texts.

In the phrase "that had made insurrection with him,"  I read the pronoun 'him' as referring to Barabas, (not Jesus)
Ouch! This is how a reasonable person reads the text. Someone without a loony agenda or a reading comprehension problem.

I'm out Stephen. Somebody stick a fork in this guy. He's done.
#48
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@ethang5
The big question is whether it was the Romans or the Jewish priests that wanted Jesus dead.   According to the text there is no doubt that it was the priests and the Romans were merely employed as their unwiling executioners.  But it is possible that is pure pro-Roman/anti-Jewish 'spin' and it was the Romans who arrested, tried and executed Jesus and the priests had nothing to do with it. 

No doubt other theories and scenarios are equally 'possible', and there isn't enough material to decide between them as to 'what really happened'.   For that reason I try to avoid speculating about it and stick with the one fact we have - the gospel writers sought to exonerate the Romans and exculpate the Jewish priests, presumably to support the growth of Christianity outside Palestine at the cost of its already waning support within Palestine.


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#49
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@keithprosser
Stephen wrote:Not with a charge of insurrection and sedition against Rome. You do agree that this was the charge don’t you? 
 
Keithprosser wrote:
No. Or sort of!
 
If Barabbas and Jesus were brought before a Roman Procurator Pontius Pilate for insurrection and sedition as the bible clearly states, then who was this insurrection and sedition committed against?
 
 
 
If official documents ever existed on the 'trial',they may well have specified 'insurrection'
 
The bible does “specify that it was "insurrection" though doesn’t it? And Christians believe it that these scriptures to be impeachable and are the gospel, you keep missing this point. And I keep saying if Christians believe the scriptures then it is only from their stance that these scriptures can be looked at , studied and scrutinised. We have to look at them from the starting point that they are true.
 
rather then 'blasphemy' because i doubt blaspheming YHWH was a crime in Roman law.
 
No it wasn’t a crime under Roman law.This is what the gospels say of the accusations levelled against Jesus by the Sanhedrin Council:
 
  Mark tellus at 15:3 that “the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing”. Luke 23:2 has it, “and they began to accuse him, saying, we found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding giving tribute [Tax] to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King”.And John 18:30 tells us “If he were not a malefactor [criminal], we wouldn't have delivered him up unto thee”. So we have the charges ranging from lying, blasphemy, many things, sedition against Rome and just being a criminal.And also according to Mark 15:10 we can add pure envy, “For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy”.
 
What some New Testament readers may not be aware of is that claiming to be “King of the Jews” was a highly charged political act of sedition or lese-majesty, and a capital crime under Roman law if it led to a rebellion, which by all accounts, this is what happened and the gospel writers have tried to play it down. WHY!?  The question is as obvious as the answer is as I Have already explained.
 
 
. 
 
 
I read the pronoun 'him' as referring to Barabas, (not Jesus) and other translations are less unambiguous.
 
At least you can say it is ambiguous.
 
There are many references from biblical scholars and theologians that say exactly the same as this>>>
Barabbas Had been charged with the crime of treason against Rome—the same crime for which Jesus was also convicted".<<<<<<< see that.  "THE SAME CRIME"
 
 
There is no doubting what these two were charged with, offences against the Roman empire. These Are undeniable facts..
 
These gospel writers even go as far as to say :>>

“You have brought this Man to me, as one who misleads the people. And indeed, having examined Him in your presence, I have found no fault in this Man concerning those things of which you accuse Him no, neither did Herod,for I sent you back to him; and indeed nothing deserving of death has been done by Him. I will therefore chastise Him and release Him”Luke 23:13-16.NKJV

Yet Mark Tells us that Jesus is warned to get out of the city because Herod wanted him dead!

The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and department: for Herod will kill thee. Mark 13:31. KJV

So one can plainly see that this whole story is a nonsense from beginning to end.

#50
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 For that reason I try to avoid speculating about it....
Would that your pal with the overactive imagination learned this too.

....the one fact we have - the gospel writers sought to exonerate the Romans and exculpate the Jewish priests,
Illogical, and a perfect example of your doublespeak. How could the gospel writers have sought to exonerate the Romans unless we first accept your idea that the Romans wanted Him dead? Assume your conclusion much?

Same for the Jewish priests. You try to spin this bit of illogic often, make a claim, and then state a conclusion as true which requires your unsupported claim to already be truth. This is unethical.

...its already waning support within Palestine.
Untrue. The book of Acts records the explosive expansion of Christianity within Palestine right after the death of Jesus.

You and Stephen may have different methods, but we can see your motives are the same.
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#51
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@ethang5
ethang5. If you are going to quote keith prosser at least be courteous enough to quote his full reply to my question and do not amalgamate two separate posts as if they are one. This is disgraceful behaviour for any member to stoop to.. What you have done above is purposeful and wilful deceit of the worst kind. You should be banned for that. imo

keithprosser at post 45 above actually responds to my question thus:

Stephen wrote: Not with a charge of insurrection and sedition against Rome.You do agree that this was the charge don’t you? 
keithprosser wrote :No. Or sort of!
You should be banned for such a wilful act of deceitfully and intentionally, misleading the members here.

You are an absolute disgrace.
#52
ethang5
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@Stephen
Keith likes to throw scraps to atheists like you.

The bottom line is that his answer to your question was No. And he gave 2 reasons why. Your anger won't change that.

You should be banned....
It is your right as a member to report me.

On my side, I don't want you to go anywhere. You are, with the exception of bully, the best argument against militant anti-theism this site has.

May you live forever.
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@ethang5
Insurrection. according to your god.
Get over it.
#54
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@disgusted
Already over it.

Perhaps you should follow your own advise and stop chasing me around the board?

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@keithprosser
The big question is whether it was the Romans or the Jewish priests that wanted Jesus dead.  
There is no doubt that Jesus was a problem to the priesthood. They were concerned about Jesus’ actions and worried that they may be replaced. It was extremely lucrative to be a priest in Jerusalem, Jesus was correct in saying that it was a “den of thieves” the  exchange rates were extortionate. But they needn’t have worried too much because Jesus played right into the hands of the Romans when he openly called himself Messiah on his deliberate loud entrance into Jerusalem on a donkey/ass. This was a clear and direct challenge to the Roman authorities. 
 
 
 According to the text there is no doubt that it was the priests and the Romans were merely employed as their unwilling executioners. 
I agree it looks that way at first reading, but the evidence completely goes against this when these scriptures are scrutinised. 
 
 
 But it is possible that is purepro-Roman/anti-Jewish 'spin' and it was the Romans who arrested, tried and executed Jesus and the priests had nothing to do with it.  
That is what the evidence points to as I have already mentioned and will repeat: Jesus was punished by Romans, in accordance with Roman law. and Roman procedures.And he was punished by crucifixion a penalty exclusively reserved for those guilty of crimes against the Empire.
He must have done something to provoke the Empire, which he did. Claiming To be “King of the Jews” was a highly charged political act of sedition or lese-majesty, and a capital crime under Roman law if it led to a rebellion,which it did and it caused the death of Jews.
 
No doubt other theories and scenarios are equally 'possible', and there isn't enough material to decide between them asto 'what really happened'.  
According to Christians the gospels tell us “what really happened”!
 
I keep saying it. if Christians believe the scriptures to be factually true then it is only from their stance that these scriptures can be looked at , studied and scrutinised. We have to look at them from the starting point that they are true.
 
 Jews died during this rebellion that the writers want to hide or at least play down. this wouldn't look very good now would it, the prince of peace taking part in rebellious acts that caused the deaths of his own countrymen and supporters? 

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@ethang5
Chasing you is a hilarious claim, but understandable from a narcissist like you.
You still don't recognise the relationship between between insurrection and sedition, but that is OK for someone with such a poor understanding of English.
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Stephen
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@ethang5
Keith likes to throw scraps to atheists like you.
 
 I don’t need “scraps” you clown. I have enough evidence to prove these gospels are so unreliable that they should be slung in the nearest bin.
 
The bottom line is that his answer to your question was No. And he gave 2 reasons why. .
 
Stop Putting words into his mouth.  He has answered and he, in truth cannot come off the fence or make up his mind. One minute he can see the deviousness of the gospel writers and then he seems to have a change of heart. . I am sure he will clear that up when he is good and ready.


I will ask you again. Is Mark's gospel wrong, yes or no. 

Both Of these Jesus' were charged with sedition and both went to the cross for it. FACT

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@Stephen
I find it tricky because i want to seperate 'what really happened' from 'what happens in the gospel story'. So if I am asked 'was jesus charged with inusurrection?'  I have to ask if you mean was he so charged 'in real life' or  'does the text say he was charged with insurrection?'.


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Stephen
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@keithprosser
I have to ask if you mean was he so charged 'in real life' or  'does the text say he was charged with insurrection?'.

I have explained now many times keith we are talking scriptures because Christians believe them as true. We have to start from this point of belief that they are TRUE.
SO , what do the scriptures say on this matter of Jesus and insurrection?

Then tell me who you believe this insurrection was committed against. IF NOT the Romans , then who?
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@Stephen
According to the text, the Priests condemned Jesus for blasphemy but - unable to execute him themselves - took Jesus to Pilate to rubber stamp the execution  - the grounds for execution under Roman law is not stated in the text.
In the text, Pilate is reluctant to execute an innocent man, and only does so finally 'under protest'.

It seems that you're proposing Jesus and Barabbas were co-conspirators -  I'd say that was 'interesting, but flimsy'!

My position is that I don't know what really happened in Piiate's court, or even if even happened at all.  However the relevant verses tell us a lot about the development of early Christianity.  I'mnot into theorising about 'what really happened' as such - there's no end to the scenarios that can be invented to fit.