I reject your claim

Author: secularmerlin

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#121
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
No, there are two historical books contained in the bible that have discrepancies between them. 

When you say the bible is self contradictory, it sounds dismissive.



#122
keithprosser
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@ethang5
in the movie "Taken", when the father gets to the house where his daughter was kidnapped, the kidnapped scene is replayed, this time with additional shots of his daughter being dragged from under the bed. These genuises would insist that 2 daughters were kidnapped and it was a contradiction as the hero has only one daughter.

I can see the boneheaded questions now.
Who is wrong? The story or you? How many daughters were kidnapped?

And of course kieths "educated" take, "It is clear that the story teller intended to rehabilitate Paris as a den of thieves, taking time out to praise the city's electric grid in the middle of a gruesome torture scene!"

What does one do with such.......scholarship?

Well, how many daughters were really kidnapped?   None, because it's a made-up story so no actual daughters were actually kidnapped.  
In the thread about the trial of Jesus you are alluding to I'd say things got very confused because of the mixing up the levels of reality and narrative.   I haven't seen the movie yet, but when I do I will be interested to see if I am tempted to say what you pre-quoted me!   But it will be true that the story teller will have very different motivations from those of his characters, n'est-ce pas?

   

#123
ethang5
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Well, how many daughters were really kidnapped?   None, because it's a made-up story so no actual daughters were actually kidnapped.
Untrue and illogical. Once you talk of fathers and daughters you have validated the narrative. It is dishonest to get into the narrative and then claim "fantasy" every time your dishonest methodology is called out. If you think none of the story is true, then a debate about a sub plot within the story is not for you. Go to the politics board.

In the thread about the trial of Jesus you are alluding to I'd say things got very confused because of the mixing up the levels of reality and narrative.
There is only one level of reality in the narrative. Your imagination doesn't change that.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but when I do I will be interested to see if I am tempted to say what you pre-quoted me!  
What is interesting is if you will be able to resist the temptation to pretend your take is already fact and start pontificating on the intentions and motivations of the author.

But it will be true that the story teller will have very different motivations from those of his characters, n'est-ce pas?
Yes, and you'll go into detail telling us how the characters motivations match your ultra-leftist narrative, as if you wrote the story and everything you think about it is a foregone conclusion.
#124
ethang5
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@secularmerlin
The contradictions in question exist in the bible and in the movie taken and in the collected histories of worldcwar two.
Only if reality exists between your ears. It doesn't.

I know you think you see contradictions, I know you also say you know nothing. When you can pull yourself up to logical, and actually show contradictions in reality and not just between your ears, I'll worry.
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#125
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
The bible is beautiful poetic and historically significant (though not historically accurate) work of fiction. I don't dismiss it but I do not believe that it has any direct connection to the mysteries of reality.

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#126
secularmerlin
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@ethang5
Kindly define the word contradiction.
#127
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@secularmerlin
I don't believe that you can really know whether or not the bible is historically accurate or not, neither can I say you know it is a work of fiction.

You are dismisssing it.


But even if you don't take it seriously, I can at least tell you what it says.

The Truth sets you free.
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#128
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
If our perceptions accurately reflect reality then the bible is a work of fiction as it describes magical happenings and magic is not a part of our observable universe, unless of course you can demonstrate otherwise. Feel free to substitute another word for magic if that word is for some reason unacceptable to you. Whichever word you recognize as having the meaning I am trying to convey.
#129
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@ethang5
If you think none of the story is true, then a debate about a sub plot within the story is not for you. Go to the politics board.
If you review the Pilate thread I think Stephen mixed up the levels.  For example I wrote

F1: The only indisputable fact is that the gospellers wrote that Jesus was cruficied by the Romans - with some reluctance - at the behest of the Jewish priests.
Stephen replied:
the other indisputable fact is that (F2): BARRABAS was on a charge of "insurrection"
But F2 is not an 'indisputable fact' - it is a detail within a story and may or may not be true; that is not the definition of a fact!  But F1 is a proper fact because even if Pilate's trial never happened it is still true that "the gospellers wrote that Jesus was cruficied...etc'.

#130
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
In other words, you are not truly agnostic about things, because you are basing your judgements on knowledge.

Why do you pretend you are agnostic?

#131
ethang5
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@keithprosser
If you review the Pilate thread I think Stephen mixed up the levels. 
Everyone knows Stephen is not solid on reality. Why are you telling me?

For example I wrote

F1: The only indisputable fact is that the gospellers wrote that Jesus was cruficied by the Romans - with some reluctance - at the behest of the Jewish priests.
Stephen replied:
the other indisputable fact is that (F2): BARRABAS was on a charge of "insurrection"
But F2 is not an 'indisputable fact' - it is a detail within a story and may or may not be true; that is not the definition of a fact! 
Again, we all know Stephen cannot distinguish between his private thoughts and reality. So what?

The convo was with you and your tendency to pretend your claims are true by defining the narrative as if your previous claims have morphed into fact.

At least we can see that Stephen is genuinely confused. You have no such excuse.
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#132
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
I said if our perceptions accurately reflect reality I did not claim to know that they do. But if they don't then the bible is amongst the things that are illusory and as it does not even exist it would still not be historically accurate. I don't know how many times I have to tell you that even if you can prove that everything I "know" is wrong and the u diverse is merely an illusion you would still be no closer to proving your claims. Arguably further since in that case even physical evidence would be meaningless.
#133
ethang5
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@secularmerlin
Kindly define the word contradiction.
Our distance from DDO has made you forget that Ethan does not do the merry-go-round with you. You are a self-admitted ignorant. What do I care what muddled up ideas infect your mind?

When you find a contradiction that still exists when you wake up, I'll be interested. Till then, your imagination should remain your business.
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#134
secularmerlin
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@ethang5
You are under no obligation to define contradictory but if you are unwilling or unable to do so then I will have no choice but believe that you do not know what the word means and as a result I have no choice but to reject any claim that you make concerning what is and is not contradictory. In the absence of sufficient refutation my statement about the bible being self contradictory stands.
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#135
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@ethang5
Honestly ethang5 even Mopac has admitted that the bible contradicts itself.
#136
ethang5
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In the absence of sufficient refutation my statement about the bible being self contradictory stands.
When you wake up, you will find your statement lying where it has always been.

Honestly ethang5 even Mopac has admitted that the bible contradicts itself.
Hold on, let me alert christandom. If he also admits you know something, will your head fill up?

#137
ethang5
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You are under no obligation to define contradictory but if you are unwilling or unable to do so then I will have no choice but believe that you do not know what the word means and as a result I have no choice but to reject any claim that you make concerning what is and is not contradictory. 
I'm shaking in my booties. Your belief being so important to me. Never mind that you claim not to be able to believe by choice.

What is it that makes liberals believe their personal belief is important to others?

#138
keithprosser
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I'd say it was pretty obvious that when the Hebrew scribes set out to preserve their oral traditions in writing they tried to combine two slightly diferent versions of their creation myth into one.   Presumably there were meetings of an 'editorial committee', the minutes of which are now sadly lost!
My guess is that originally genesis began with what is now chapter 2 and gen 1 was pre-pended because it was more dramatic!  
Many scholars date gen 2-3 as earlier (yahwist source)than gen 1 (P source).
 


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#139
secularmerlin
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@ethang5
When did I claim to be a liberal or that my beliefs are important to anyone but myself. What does that have to do with our conversation or the apparent contradictions in the bible?

To be clear beliefs are not a choice which is why I cannot believe a claim which has not been demonstrated or that you actually know what a contradiction is.

You understand that nothing I gave said to you is meant to constitute a threat don't you? Indeed if youbwerec"shaking in your booties" I would try to reassure you that I mean you no harm.

Also Mopac thinking that I know things would not mean that I did but if you are going to ride the coattails of his argument you might keep up with exactly what he has and has not claimed.

As always thank you for your participation in my thread though I could wish that you would offer an actual argument rather than the automatic rote gainsay of anything that your fellow interlocutor has to say. An argument to be clear is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
#140
ethang5
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@secularmerlin
Right, I'm to take argument advice from one who can't make an argument.

I could wish that you would offer an actual argument...
When you are older, you will better realize that things you don't know of can exist.
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#141
secularmerlin
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@ethang5
Things I don't know of likely do exist but if I do not know of them then I cannot have any discussion about them beyond conjecture. 

The above constitutes an argument.

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#142
secularmerlin
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@ethang5
"I don't have to prove anything because I know I am right" does not constitute an argument it constitutes a tantrum.
#143
keithprosser
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@secularmerlin
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

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#144
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@keithprosser
Your a very silly person and I'm not going to interview you. That isn't even a proper nose it's polyurethane.
#145
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@secularmerlin
I will keep your posts for now, but when you awake and find someone who cares, please begin to direct your imaginings to them.
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#146
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@ethang5
I will keep your posts for now, but when you awake and find someone who cares, please begin to direct your imaginings to them.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this or what point, if any, you intended.

#147
disgusted
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@ethang5
Using fiction to prove fiction, what funny stories godists tell.
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#148
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@disgusted
Have you tried having a discussion with those of a theistic bent rather than simply belittling them?
#149
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
I don't think you have any good reason to believe the bible at this point, so I don't see what good it does to hold it against you.

I will say that every single one of Jesus' apostles was executed or tortured to death in some cruel way. Well, they tried to boil John alive, but he lived so they locked him up... Even Matthew, the one who was elected to replace Judas was burned to death.

So I think it is reasonable to believe that these people really believed what they were willing to put their lives in jeopardy for. I think it would be wrong to call the gospel accounts fiction, because they are certainly as valid as any other historical writing. I also think it would be wrong to not respect the historical writings in the old testament as being such, because they were actually written by historians of the day. The Jewish people took history very seriously, and still do, because it is believed that God is revealed through it.

So I don't expect you to believe the bible, but it is more than just poetry and fiction, and it shouldn't be dismissed as such







#150
ethang5
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@secularmerlin
I'm not really sure what you mean by this or what point, if any, you intended.
No rush. When you are awake.