Jesus Was Terrified Of What Was To Come.

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Stephen
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And his payers and plea’s went unheard and ignored and unanswered by his “father”. He lost his faith and wanted no part of what can only be seen a pre-planned moronic plot.
Luke 22:41-42 New King James Version (NKJV)
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your Will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 
 
Matthew tells us  of Jesus making his request of the Father twice: "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken away from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will'"(Matthew 26:39) and "He went away a second time and prayed, 'My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done'" (Matt. 26:42).
 
This man was obviously absolutely terrified of what he was about to face we have to ask, did he bargained for this, did he not understand the scripture or the script. Did he not know that all of this mission was leading up to a sacrifice, his own sacrifice?
 
We can only conclude that he didn’t have a clue that this was how it was all supposed to end.
 
Mark attempts to put positive spin his prayer "'Abba, Father,' he said, 'everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will"(Mark 14:36).
But the non response and total silence from his “father” are the same: a complete and utter refusal to even recognise the absolute peril his “only son” was in.
 
It seems only his so called “father” could excuse him of this savage and brutal commitment. Had this Jewish mission been intended to go this far; for this young man to be “scourged& nailed to beams of wood, & speared in the ribs.
 
If this was the “will of the father” then who would want such a savage indifferent being for a father?  And it shouldn’t go unnoticed that   not only did  god, the “father” ignore and refused to answer the pleadings and  prayers of this poor young man but was so indifferent to his ONLY SON’s  pleading and begging to be released from this contract that he couldn’t be bothered to show up himself  to comfort his only son who had “sweated blood” out of sheer fear,  but sent a messenger to say ‘there there, have faith, everything will be alright in three days time.
 
Like all of these gospels, this story simply does not make a single piece of  sense.
 

#2
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@Stephen
If the Bible isn't lies written by patriarchal subliminal messaging Republicans of the time who thought they had to come up with a way to justify patriarchy in a more humane wording than the old testament, then it's likely Jesus was conned by Fiora into becoming what he did. Musled intentionally as a game to her and other alien demigods beneath her but above us.
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@RationalMadman
then it's likely Jesus was conned
You may be onto something there RM. I am beginning to believe Jesus and possibly John the Baptist were bred for purpose. To purposefully enact the so called prophecies of Old Testament to the letter. A bit like the passion plays that are held today in schools around the world enacting the "immaculate conception" and birth of Jesus in a stable- a house - or cave; the scriptures cannot make its mind up about which  it was

I believe they may have both been "conned" into believing that the roles they played in the plot was given to them by god. In other words, they were puppets.
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@Stephen
It is painfully obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about.
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@Grugore
It is painfully obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about.


Then it is painfully obvious that you should just ignore what it is I have to write about and keep you hooter out of my topics.

Or are you simply going to say those verses are incorrect and or false.
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@Stephen
What I'm saying is that you lack understanding. There are plenty of Bible scholars who would agree with me. People who have devoted their entire life to studying Scripture. Why should I listen to you?
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@Grugore
What I'm saying is that you lack understanding.
Opinion



There are plenty of Bible scholars who would agree with me.
So. there are many i know agree with me.


People who have devoted their entire life to studying Scripture.
So


Why should I listen to you?
 You don't have to. Go away.

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Working within the framework of the story, I think only someone who knew what was coming would be that terrified. The apostles had no clue what was coming and were not as terrified. So not terrified that they fell asleep like selfish three-year-olds in a stunning display of loyalty and sensitivity.

Be there for my Lord and Savior... or take a nap.
Be there for my Lord and Savior... or take a nap.
Lord and Savior... nap.
Lord and Savior......... nap.
Lord and Savior................ nap.

It's okay fellas, it's not like this was the most vulnerable moment in Jesus's life and he needed you more desperately than ever or anything.
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Jesus Was Terrified Of What Was To Come.
That's just another part of the fiction that fails the continuity test. If he's god then he has nothing to fear, if he is incapable of controlling his pain receptors then he can't be god at all. If he's god then death has no power over him, nothing to fear, the story is bollocks.
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@Castin

Working within the framework of the story, 

Were the secret disciples only revealing the script to Jesus a scene at a time?

It appears that Jesus Didn’t expect things to get this far. It was only later in his mission that he seemed to realize it had failed and his number was up, he had been exposed?

One Disciple though; Judas a cut throat Zealot assassin and probably his father Simon( Peter rock) had realized the mission to expel the Romans stood absolutely no chance and decided rather than be arrested as an enemy of Rome, he/they would save his own thieving skin.
Reassuring words said by the mysterious messenger in the garden may have calmed and soothed Jesus’nerves and bleeding skin for the time being. He was probably told that this was all part the script and to go through the motions that would come to nothing and he would be released with 24 hours “as it is written”?


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@Stephen
Sure Jesus was afraid of the cross, but no one forced Him to lay down His life for us. I will look up something for citation, and get back to you. 
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@Sitara
Sure Jesus was afraid of the cross, but no one forced Him to lay down His life for us.

I agree. It seems that his was crucifixion has nothing to do with saving anyone from sins or anything else. His crucifixion appears to have everything to do with his rebellious behaviour towards Rome. Indeed, if we were to agree that he gave up his life for others, then it is  extremely doubtful that it would have been for Christian lives , you see Jesus was a Jew. He claimed to be King of the Jews and the Jewish Nation. Through his pedigree he was also High priest of the Jewish church.  



I will look up something for citation, and get back to you. 

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@Stephen
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

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@Stephen
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
I may tell all my bones: they look andstare upon me.
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."

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@Mopac
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?  
YES LORD WHY DID YOU FORSAKE YOUR ONLY SON?

O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not;
YES FATHER, WHY DID YOU NOT EVEN HEAR THE WORDS AND CRIES OF YOUR ONLY SON?
 
and in the night season, and am not silent.
But thou art holy, O thou that inhabits the praises of Israel.
I DIDN’T  STOP BEGGING AND PLEADING FORE MY LIFE , BUT YOU ANSWER ME NOT. PLeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeAS  FATHER ANSWER ME!!!!
 
Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.  
I TRUSTED YOU, I BELIEVE IN YOU MY FATHER AND YOU GIVE ME OVER TO THE ROMANS  TO BE BRUTALLY BEATEN AND MURDERED!!
 
 
 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
WHY DO YOU SAVE THEM AND NOT ME  YOUR ONLY SON?
 
 
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
IS THIS WHAT YOU THINK OF ME? JUST A WORM TO CRAWL IN THE DIRT?
 
 
All they that see me laugh me toscorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him,seeing he delighted in him.
 
BUT YOU, MY FATHER, DELIVERED ME NOT SAFETY BUT INTO THE HANDS OF YOUR ENEMIES. WHY?!!WHY?!!WHY?!!WHY?!!WHY?!!WHY?!!

Because "it is written", my son.




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@Stephen
Mock and scoff all you want, but the truth is not in you.
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@Stephen
As you (probably!) know I don't really like speculating about 'what really happened' because without a time machine we will never know, but I don't deny its fun to speculate!

One fact is that Christianity did not die when Christ died as mght be expected when the leader of a charismatic sect is removed.   Instread of folding, the early Christians went for broke and explained His death as being part of God's plan from the beginning and the lack of any body or tomb as due to His resurrection after days, the Gospels reflectin the revised legend.

If so, all one can say is.... it worked!


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@keithprosser
One fact is that Christianity did not die when Christ died as might be expected when the leader of a charismatic sect is removed.
By removed you mean "Crucified"? So you believe the that Jesus Christ existed. Well that's a start.  Now where is your evidence?

Instread of folding, the early Christians went for broke and explained His death as being part of God's plan

So  are you re confirming again that Jesus existed and also his so called father "god". Can you prove that?

and the lack of any body or tomb as due to His resurrection after days, the Gospels reflectin the revised legend.
The "lack of a body in a tomb" is not proof of a "resurrection" but it is proof of an empty tomb.
If so
So you have gone back to sitting on the fence Keith. 

As you (probably!) know I don't really like speculating about 'what really happened' because without a time machine we will never know, but I don't deny its fun to speculate!

 Wasting people's time , never coming of the fence and repeating the same thing over and over. Yes, I think that I  "probably do know". 
#19
keithprosser
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Let me be clear what  fence I am sitting on!  As an atheist I don't bother with the miraculous or magical elements of Bible stories - they can be junked straight away.  So in regard to something like the nativity I'm not bothered with the virgin birth nonsense, but it is interesting whether Jesus was born in Bethlehem for instance, 

After many years I have concluded that almost none of the Gospel story is based on actuality.  Now my main interest is not whether this or that passage is true (it almost certainly isn't true) but on why the writers set it down.

Unlike you - apparently - i don't think there are enough hard facts in the text to pin down 'what really happened'.  It's easy enough to show that the text can't be true, but that isn't the same as being able to construct an alternative narrative that is true.



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@keithprosser
Let me be clear what  fence I am sitting on!  As an atheist I don't bother with the miraculous or magical elements of Bible stories

And neither do I . The simple reason I don't bother with the miraculous or magical elements of Bible is because there are none. At all. Raising the dead for instance, was simply a ritualistic initiation into the sect of the time - Essenes. It  is still practiced  to the day in Freemasonry an to the letter . So don't get the impression that I believe the "miraculous" spin that the christian church has put on these stories.


  they can be junked straight away. 
So in regard to something like the nativity I'm not bothered with the virgin birth nonsense,
I agree , if one is to take them at face value, it is simple to debunk them as I have done and continue to do.


but it is interesting whether Jesus was born in Bethlehem for instance,  

Why is that interesting?  When  even there the gospellers cannot make up their minds as to where he was born . 

After many years I have concluded that almost none of the Gospel story is based on actuality. 

Start a thread. telling us all why and how you have come to that startling conclusion.

Now my main interest is not whether this or that passage is true (it almost certainly isn't true) but on why the writers set it down.

 I think you know why, as do many authorities of the subject.

Unlike you - apparently - i don't think there are enough hard facts in the text to pin down 'what really happened'.

Yes , so you keep "speculating for fun" with the same mantra " we will never know what really happened". 

 Seeing that you find it "fun to speculate", why don't you go here >>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/539?page=3 and "have fun speculating" the questions I have asked you.

 This thread is about why a god would ignore and dessert his extremely terrified son when in his desperate hour of need?  Going by the scriptures that CHRISTIANS believe. 

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@Stephen
Wait, what? Jesus did die to save from sins. I am sorry for my lack of communication skills.
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I think it interesting on many levels that something 'everybody knows' (such as Jesus was born in Bethlehem) is almost certainly false.

I am a bit surprised no one has yet suggested that the reason Jesus cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" is that he did believe himself to be the son of God and couldn't understand why it was happening to him!

But there are many points in the gospel story that allude to the OT.  Their purpose is to forge a connection between Jesus and the Judaic Messianic tradition.  Those allusions are beloved by 'prophesy hounds' but of course they are not 'prophesies' at all.   In this case the reference is to Psalm 22 which begins
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
    Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from my cries of anguish?"

Of course it is possible that Jesus did quote Ps22 on the cross - he would certainly have been familiar with the Psalms.   Or - also possible - is that Mark (who also knew his hebrew scriptures) made up that detail because it seemed a nice addition to the picture, and the other evangelists copied it.
   

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@Stephen

We can only conclude that he didn’t have a clue that this was how it was all supposed to end.
Or, if we aren't idiots, we would conclude no sane person wouldn't be hesitant at being flogged, beaten, and tortured for hours.

More than a thousand years earlier, it was predicted that Jesus would be betrayed, tortured, and crucified in the OT. Now here comes our local genius to tell us Jesus didn't know.

"We can only conclude"....the most stupid thing. Why? What is keeping you away from common sense?
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@ethang5
Or, if we aren't idiots, we would conclude no sane person wouldn't be hesitant at being flogged, beaten, and tortured for hours.
But it wouldn't warrant a second thought for a god. Meaningless inconveniences if that.

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@keithprosser
But there are many points in the gospel story that allude to the OT.
It's almost as if the gospellers had the OT in front of them as they wrote. Heaven forbid.

#26
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Believers are annoyingly resistant to the idea that all those 'amazing prophesies fulfilled by Jesus' aren't so amazing when you realise the NT writers could read.

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@ethang5
Or, if we aren't idiots, 
Are you implying I am and idiot? 


More than a thousand years earlier, it was predicted that Jesus would be betrayed, tortured, and crucified in the OT. 
That is absolute cobblers for which you don't have a single piece of evidence.

Now here comes our local genius to tell us Jesus didn't know.
As usual you have misunderstood the point of the thread. Now just to let in on what's going on here. This thread is about the failure of the "father"- Jesus' "father" to relive his only son Jesus -   NOT BARABBAS, OR MOSES, OR BARNABAS -  of "this cup". Something only "the father" could sanction. 

 Now. if, as you clearly state above,  Jesus knew he was to be  "betrayed, tortured, and crucified " BECAUSE  "it was predicted that Jesus would be in the OT", then tell us all, why did he ask his "father" to relieve him from it all? Why did he BEG and "SWEAT BLOOD" in sheer fear of the consequences he faced. Why did he even bother to beg his father 2/3 times to relieve him of this extreme and deadly burden, if he understood what it all was coming to?

You see, again your gospel story doesn't make a single piece of sense. 


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@keithprosser
I think it interesting on many levels that something 'everybody knows' (such as Jesus was born in Bethlehem) is almost certainly false.
 How do you know, or are you speculating for fun? Again

I am a bit surprised no one has yet suggested that the reason Jesus cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" is that he did believe himself to be the son of God and couldn't understand why it was happening to him!
 There are many theological authors who have wrote just that, why it is  you believe you are the first ever to suggest this  is astounding! , considering you only ever speculate the bible for fun and are a proud atheist. 
 
But there are many points in the gospel story that allude to the OT.  Their purpose is to forge a connection between Jesus and the Judaic Messianic Tradition. 
 And you know this because of what, or is this just more  speculating, for fun?
 
 
 In this case the reference is to Psalm .....
 
Of course it is possible that Jesus did quote Ps22 on the cross - he would certainly have been familiar with the Psalms.   Or - also possible - is that Mark (whoalso knew his hebrew scriptures) made up that detail because it seemed a niceaddition to the picture, and the other evangelists copied it.
So then you are just offering more speculation i.e. if Jesus existed at all etc etc?

 I think anyone reading the content of your input can safely put everything down to your  speculation . 
 
 Thanks for your input, for what it is worth. 
 

#29
ethang5
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This thread is about the failure of the "father"- Jesus' "father" to relive his only son Jesus -   NOT BARABBAS, OR MOSES, OR BARNABAS -  of "this cup". Something only "the father" could sanction. 
So the Father tells us the cup is coming. The son tells us the cup is coming. We know the Son's purpose was to drink from this cup. We hear the Son say to the Father, "your will, not mine."

And you call it a "failure"? Lol. OK.

...then tell us all, why did he ask his "father" to relieve him from it all? 
Because no sane person wants to be beaten, flogged, and tortured for hours.

Why did he BEG and "SWEAT BLOOD" in sheer fear of the consequences he faced.
Because no sane person wants to be beaten, flogged, and tortured for hours. Oh, and He did not sweat blood. Read it slowly.

Why did he even bother to beg his father 2/3 times to relieve him of this extreme and deadly burden, if he understood what it all was coming to?
Because he was human, and because no sane person wants to be beaten, flogged, and tortured for hours.

You see, again your gospel story doesn't make a single piece of sense.
It make perfect sense. That is one of the reasons it is so popular. You just have a poor sense of human nature.

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Stephen
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@ethang5
We hear the Son say tothe Father, "your will, not mine."
We do. We also herehim beg and plead while sweating blood in stark fear at his predicament  with his “father” to relieve him of this “cup”
 
And you call it a"failure"?
 
I do. He was beggedand pleaded with by his only relieve him of the terrifying barbaric ordeal buthis father failed him. He ignored him totally as if he didn’t even exist. .
Because no sane personwants to be beaten, flogged, and tortured for hours.
 
That doesn’t answerthe question you clown. If he understood the OT prophecy as you say, then whydid he even bother begging to be a reprieve? Your story makes no sense whatsoever.
 
Oh, and He did notsweat blood. Read it slowly.
 
And you read thisverse slowly you clown.
 
 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as itwere great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Luke 22:44.

 Biblical religious scholars <<<<<  that is someone who knows the scriptures much better than you ever will, -   have identified this condition
as the rare hematohidrosis.


It make perfect sense.
 You say he understood the prophecy. Then heshouldn’t have been whinging and moaning and sweating blood in sheer stark fear if he knew thiswas his destiny all along. Learn your scriptures. they make no sense.