what is the origin of consciousness?
Consciousness
Posts
Total:
31
-->
@janesix
The brain, of course.
-->
@Goldtop
how does the brain produce consciousness?
-->
@janesix
"Produce" may not be a very good descriptor considering consciousness is a state of a functioning brain, its not really making something.
Consciousness - the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
- the awareness or perception of something by a person.
- the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world."consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain"
9 days later
-->
@janesix
Conciousness is not a particularly well defined term. After all a plant undergoes cycles of rest and activity (growth, nutrient processing etc) and it reacts to stimulus giving the impression of being aware of said stimulus but most people would contend that a plant is not conscious. Perhaps we should figure out specifically what we mean by conciousness before we try to determine where it came from.
-->
@secularmerlin
I think every living thing is probably conscious to some degree
-->
@janesix
I think every living thing is probably conscious to some degree
Ok but what dies that mean? Just responsive to the environment?
-->
@janesix
Whatever it's origin, scientists have concluded that there is a non material component of being self-aware.
-->
@secularmerlin
I think everything is aware, like we are. They experience life
-->
@Grugore
In what way?
-->
@Grugore
Whatever it's origin, scientists have concluded that there is a non material component of being self-aware.
Citation needed.
-->
@janesix
So do you just mean being alive or is there more to conciousness than that?
-->
@secularmerlin
I just think a living being would have to be "aware " in some degree. not necessarily self awareness, but at least some small bit of awareness, emotions to some degree.
-->
@janesix
What is the difference between aware and self aware? Do both amount to conciousness?
-->
@secularmerlin
a baby doesn't know it is a sepreate being. that comes with experience and time. i don't know if a dog is self-aware. but a monkey might be.
are humans the only being with the ability to kno w it has a self? maybe. maybe dolphins do.
-->
@janesix
Maybe a rock does but it gives no indication that this is the case. Is self awareness necessary to conciousness or only awareness in general?
-->
@secularmerlin
I don't think self awareness is necessary for consciousness.
-->
@janesix
Then what is necessary? What quality do concious beings possess that other beings and objects do not?
We have brains
We have consciousnesses.
We have consciousnesses that appear to come from brains.
We have brains that don't appear to produce any form of consciousness.
I have never seen a consciousness without an associated brain, though.
-->
@drafterman
I have never seen a consciousness without an associated brain, though.
Unless all the people you know have 'see-thru' skulls you are assuming the presence of a brain. Also, the people you know probably have big toes - are you sure that consciousness not reside in big toes?
-->
@keithprosser
Consciousness has been observed in people without big toes. So that eliminates that possibility.
-->
@secularmerlin
I don't know.
-->
@janesix
I would say consciousness arose as a mechanism to modify an entity's responses to be appropriate to external conditions. Strictly speaking consciousness is not required to do that - a system that invokes a fixed response to a clear external cue would be a great improvement over random behaviour but a system like that would resemble a thermostat rather than consciousness.
I think full-blown consciousness may have had its roots in a crude 'behaviour switching' system, but what people mean by 'consciousness' usually involves the production of an 'intermediate mental model' of the external world which allows for much more flexibility in response by allowing past experience and even future expectation as well as current conditions to be taken into account in deciding what to do.
So I suggests consciousness is a way of matching response to stimulus in an extremely powerful and flexible way. Consciousness works by encoding information about the external word (derived from sense organs) into a 'mental model' of the world, upon which algorithmic operatations can be applied to direct behaviour.
-->
@janesix
I don't know is often the honest answer but if we cannot adequately define conciousness I'm not sure how productive any discussion about it can be.
-->
@keithprosser
I suggest that everything derives from consciousness, not the other way around
IMO, not everything. There is a physical universe of mindless matter and forces that predate consciousness. However many things do depend on consciousness, such meaning, mattering and values.
If a star goes nova in a universe devoid of consciousness it 'doesn't matter' - it is neither good or bad. But if a nova takes out a civilisation with all its art, history and culture that is a tragedy.
So I don't agree that everything derives from consciousness - but perhaps everything that matters does.
-->
@keithprosser
where is your proof of that
-->
@janesix
Check the first 3 letters of my post.
-->
@keithprosser
ok. why is that your opinion?what has led you to that conclusion?
-->
@keithprosser
IMO, not everything. There is a physical universe of mindless matter and forces that predate consciousness.
You don't know that any "forces" predate consciousness, because for one energy is present with conscious activity and therefore a Theistic proposition is very possible and probable....and you don't know that there is a universe of "mindless matter" that somehow predates the mind out of which "mindless" matter forms to produce a means to an end. And so....if the Creator is in fact first a conscious activity then energy has always been present because first conscious activity was present, they go hand in hand or one comes before the other so what force predates consciousness? Even in that scenario it is safe to say consciousness predates "forces" because it can be shown that thoughts (consciousness) creates energy and or vibrations. Unless you categorize awareness as a "force" consciousness could very well predate any forces of nature or affects of conscious activity you see in nature. There is nothing you could produce to show that somehow something predates consciousness, that is impossible because it is not so.
However many things do depend on consciousness, such meaning, mattering and values.
Perhaps they depend on consciousness because consciousness came first, first before anything that matters, anything that was created that has meaning or value.....did you know that consciousness does not depend upon a brain? but the brain depends upon consciousness like activity on a circuit board depends upon the flow of electricity? the source of electricity came before the components on an electrical board...same with conscious awareness. The brain confines/restricts your experience to a physical body it does not create it.
If a star goes nova in a universe devoid of consciousness it 'doesn't matter' - it is neither good or bad. But if a nova takes out a civilisation with all its art, history and culture that is a tragedy.
A star goes nova because it was first demanded that it do so through conscious activity because that was its purpose in creation. Taking out civilizations though does not depend upon any nova but first conscious thought which dictated it, a supernova is part of the process by which our universe maintains itself.
So I don't agree that everything derives from consciousness - but perhaps everything that matters does.
I agree with the last statement but the first is false, without conscious activity nothing would exist and nothing would matter but it does matter and it does exist. It is very probable that first there was a conscious reality, finding activity in the brain when the body is conscious does not in any way indicate that the body creates consciousness anymore than activity within a circuit board means it creates electricity so there is no real way for a materialist to proclaim so unless they reject spiritual evidences and sources. That is a conscious choice but a very limited one.