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@Mopac
I guess the deal is that the scripture doesn't just say not to worship images. It says not to make them at all.
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything"
Posts
Total:
66
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@Mopac
All of this from the dude who worships truth before his god. Terribly sad for his "eternal" being. Ah well it doesn't really matter.
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@Mopac
Stephen has a faulty interpretation of the scripture, and context makes this very clear. Images are not to be worshipped as gods. Jews are not to make images to be worshipped as gods.
Provide the verse that support this lie.
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@Castin
I'm always curious about the origin of the symbolism. How did snakes and staffs become associated with healing?
Well when we talk of Ancient places such as Egypt and Mesopotamia we cannot help think of the rivers Nile, Euphrates And the Tigris.
These big cities were built on or very near to this life giving fluid. (London is built on the Bank of the Thames, memphis is on the Mississippi as are many other cities) .
These rivers follow a winding, meandering course. They twist and bend and curve and curl, - snake –like.
The first recorded healing Lord according to Sumerian And other ancient text was Ea/Enk. He was known as the Serpent Lord simply because of his place of residence, next to the Euphrates.
The tradition started there my friend and there is nothing recorded earlier to my knowledge that says different. This emblematic Serpent has been related to this ancient healing Lord since man had a brain and has been continued since those ancient times way back in Mesopotamia. It is STILL the emblem of all medical institutions in the West
Marvellous isn’t it.☺☺☺
I'm not sure about the meaning of Exodus 20:4. To me it reads like "don't make an image of anything" or "don't make images".
Yes very clearly written isn't it. Of "ANYTHING", but you may have seen above, some just won't accept it even though the dictate is clear as day, they will rewrite what is clearly written bu their own god and try to tell us god didn't mean "ANYTHING".
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@Mopac
Images of ANYTHING were not to be made PERIOD!Images are not to be worshipped as gods.
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@Castin
I guess the deal is that the scripture doesn't just say not to worship images. It says not to make them at all.
That is exactly what it says and i have noticed still that Mopac hasn't provided us with the evidence that Graven images can be made but under certain conditions. He's a liar. This is what he has said in a miserable attempt at get around this blazing biblical contradiction.
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course
For the fourth time
Lets us see the evidence for this claim, chapter and verse. I want to see where this god who said "do not make any graven images" then goes against his own words and says to the people of Judea that - "some images can be made under "certain guidelines".
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@Stephen
So you think river = healing, snake = river. Interesting. I would have guessed the shedding of its snakeskin had more to do with it. Rebirth or rejuvenation or something.
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@disgusted
Mopac worte: Stephen has a faulty interpretation of the scripture, and context makes this very clear. Images are not to be worshipped as gods. Jews are not to make images to be worshipped as gods.
disgusted wrote: Provide the verse that support this lie.
KJV 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
@ disgusted. He simply cannot support his claim of exemption "within certain guidelines" that is why he has come up with the complete nonsense that he has done.
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@Stephen
You gotta remember that godists can't abide the truth
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@Castin
Make them to worship them.
The preceding and following verses clear this up handidly.
None of these people saying otherwise even respect scripture, they are simply trying to be destructive.
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@Castin
So you think river = healing, snake = river. Interesting.
No what I am saying is this particular "Lord" (modern word god) was of the medical field whose residence was on or near a meandering river as many lords residence were. So what I think is Serpent = title Lord of the wisdom of healing/medicine. AKA Enki the Wise Serpent Lord. Remember Jesus called the serpent "wise" and instructed his disciples to be like him.
Christians just hate to face up to that one, they cannot reconcile how Jesus would be holding this vile deceiver of mankind in such high esteem? Unless he wasn't and was actually telling his disciples to be sly and two faced by pretending to be harmless as doves but deadly has snakes. It is one or the other isn't it?
Be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves. mat: 10-16
It is only Christian tradition that has painted this wise Serpent Lord as a evil "devil".
I would have guessed the shedding of its snakeskin had more to do with it. Rebirth or rejuvenation or something.
The snake may well have a/this significance of "re birth" in some 'modern' cultures. But this isn't the significance in the case. We are taking here of first and earliest of civilisation/s.
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@Mopac
Make them to worship them.
Stop it!!! for christ's sake!
The preceding and following verses clear this up handedly.
lets us see them AND For the fifth time
Lets us see the evidence for this claim, chapter and verse. I want to see where this god who said "do not make any graven images" then goes against his own words and says to the people of Judea that - "some images can be made under "certain guidelines".
None of these people saying otherwise even respect scripture, they are simply trying to be destructive.
I take them seriously enough to belief that there is actually a story here that is not being told truthfully. And the more you cough, stutter and splutter , the more I see that you simply do not have a clue of what's going on in any parts of the scriptures and take it all for the fairytale that has been preached to you. There sis a real story going on in these scriptures of that I am convinced, it is just not the total crap that you seem to believe.
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course
And you evidence for this ?
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@Stephen
I'm not sure about the meaning of Exodus 20:4. To me it reads like "don't make an image of anything" or "don't make images".Yes very clearly written isn't it. Of "ANYTHING", but you may have seen above, some just won't accept it even though the dictate is clear as day, they will rewrite what is clearly written bu their own god and try to tell us god didn't mean "ANYTHING".
Whoops, missed this.
I remain uncertain of the meaning of the passage because it's just hard for me to imagine that a tribe would want a God who totally forbade images. It would mean they wouldn't even be able to use something as practical as a map, which would be an enormous inconvenience. Humans tend to create gods who generally approve of their culture and way of life, which is why the OT God says it's okay for the Hebrews to have slaves so long as they follow certain guidelines.
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@Castin
The point is that nowhere does it say there are exceptions to this commandment as mopac is trying desperately to convince himself that there is.
There isn't, he knows it because his bible says so. If he insists on denything this fact he is doing his god no favours and a great disservice..
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@Stephen
You aren't even talking about what I am, you have a nonargument.
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@Stephen
Images in synagogues of all places. Stained glass is pretty common. I believe that constitutes a likeness.
Virtuoso, a moderator on this forum is a Jew and his avatar is a stained glass even come to think of it.
I'd also like to point out that there are still many Christians around today that take a more iconoclastic stance on this issue. As I said earlier, I would have been right there. I realized that I was wrong.
I personally do not use images, in fact, I do not have pictures or sculptures in my home. Not even of family. However, I know I would be in error to thumb the bible over someone's head for the use of icons. I am a vegetarian. Likewise, it would be wrong of me to demand others take on my dietary choices. Wrong and totally unscriptural. The images are for those who use them.
Historically, at least in the Christian world, icons served the purpose of being words to aide in the teaching of the illiterate. It was a lot simpler even to teach the interpretation of iconography than to teach literacy in a language. Besides that, being a language itself, crossed spoken word barriers.
When it comes to how Jews use images, it is a similar context... educational purposes. They are not to be taken as gods worthy of worship. That is the point. Back in those days and even for thousands of years since, people worshipped statues and images as being gods. People still do this today, even in so called advanced societies.
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@Mopac
Make them to worship them.The preceding and following verses clear this up handidly.None of these people saying otherwise even respect scripture, they are simply trying to be destructive.
Well I'm not aware of any rule that says only people who respect scripture are allowed to judge it. You'll certainly never catch me saying only people who respect atheism are allowed to judge atheism, heh. But I think it's obvious their motive is to tear apart this passage destructively, yes.
Anyway, this is the verse as I'm reading it:
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them."
These sound like separate items to me, in separate sentences. "Don't make them. Don't worship them." Not "don't make them to worship them". I realize Stephen has said this several times already, so sorry if I sound repetitive. I'm just being honest about how it looks to me.
But I acknowledge that the translation of the word "image" is very pivotal here. The NIV uses the word "image", the KJV uses the term "graven image", and the New Living Translation (among others) uses the word "idol". That last one makes the best case for your argument. But saying "you shall not make an image of heaven above or earth beneath or the waters below" still strikes me as a pretty weird and roundabout way of saying "you shall not make idols".
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@Castin
When I say that these people don't respect scripture, I'm saying that they don't honestly care what the intent and purpose of it is. They don't really care about what it is actually saying, they only pretend to if convenient.
The interpretation that we are not to make any images, statues, or anything like that is actually very common in a lot of protestant circles, and is contradicted by scripture itself that has, even in the time of Moses, this brass serpent, the 10 commandments which are a graven image on stone, and a container for the 10 commandments that has statues on it. CLEARLY the iconoclast interpretation is off the mark.
It is easy for an artist to take their work as an idol before God, serving their creation. Even today, you see people who make the consumption and geeking out over art the thing that makes life for them. The God of scripture is not a created thing. If you take God as a created thing, you are not really looking at God. The point isn't to destroy all art, it is not to be worshipped.
The Truth is God. The whole point of scripture is to plant this in the heart. Scripture itself is supposed to be used to make God known, it is not supposed to be taken as an idol before God.
So sorry if I sound repetitive, but iconoclasm is a heresy. Iconoclasm is destructive towards everything and condemns the iconoclast in the process.
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@Mopac
You aren't even talking about what I Am, you have a nonargument.
This is the argument. Stop being so ignorant and read it slowly.
“You Shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything"
This^^^^^ above^^^^ is the title and theme of this discussion it is what I am and what is being discussed, on MY THREAD. This Is what you have been commenting on and arguing about, stop trying to say we are discussing different things when it is clear to all reading here that is not the case, so stop your deceitful practice
You STILL haven’t provided single shred of evidence that supports this claim of yours that you insist states there are exceptions to this god’s commandment: here is what you have stated for all to see>>
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, withcertain guidelines of course.
Where is your evidence?
You have also claimed that the bible explains why it is that “some graven images are acceptable, saying
Mopac wrote: The preceding and following verses clear this up handedly.
Well now why didn’t you say to begin with then? That’s all fine, now is all you have to do is put these verses up and let us see them.
Images in synagogue of all places.
I know. I am not arguing they are there and in existence am I? Ijust want you to explain why is it that ALL graven images are forbidden by gods strict command, yet the temple has gigantic graved images inside and out that go against gods direct command given by god to Moses? These particular graven images didn’t seem to offend god Or Hezekiah? Why!!!?
But the staff with a healing serpent entwined around it and made by Moses at GOD'S personal behest and to gods strict design, Hezekiah found this an abomination!Why?
But if you want real confirmation, ask a rabbi,
I have. and priest and nun.
My Answer to your post 47 that I read and didn't ignore, is that your post 47 doesn’t answer single one of these questions concerning Graven Images that are Taboo on the strict command of god almighty himself?
Back in those days and even for thousands of years since, people worshipped statues and images as being gods.
They did, but we are talking SPECIFICALLY about one kind people only aren’t we: Hebrews/Israelites aren’t we? and the strict commands of their god. Trying to drag all people under one umbrella isn’t going to get you off this terrible dilemma you are now in.
The interpretation that we are not tomake any images, statues, or anything like that is actually very common in a lot of protestant circles,
It doesn’t answer my questions, I don’t care what Christians do and think today, I don’t care who worships graved images in the21st century, so please so stop with the filibustering, simply put up the verses that you say excuses the MAKING of graven images and put up the evidence that god says Graven images can be made “with certain guidelines”.
And of course I would like to see that evidenced for this statement you also made>>
It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.
But saying "you shall not make an image of heaven above or earth beneath or the waters below" still strikes me as a pretty weird and roundabout way of saying "you shall not make idols".
From your post 48 Castin > it is exactly as you have put in your post above. It doesn't say an image OF heaven it says IN heaven
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them."
But let's not get blindsided by semantics, The fact is that on the strict command of this god Moses was told NOT to make graven images of anything above in the skies /heaven or below on earth. There is absolutely no getting away from this fact. God then goes against his own dictate and commands Moses to make a staff/rod/ pole and to entwine around it a healing Serpent. And they have this staff in their possession for over a thousand years before Hezekiah decides this gods created and designed Serpent Healing Staff is an abomination and orders its destruction.
Meanwhile, standing inside and outside of the Jerusalem Temple of Solomon the most sacred place on earth (depending on which god you supported), King Hezekiah of Judah has Graven images of heavenly beings and two giant engraven statues with wingspans of over 30ft and no one seems to find these images offensive in anyway..at all, no one, not even god or King Hezekiah?
This is not to mention all of the heavenly imagery that adorn the inside of god's own house/temple.
The staff Moses created by Moses was set up and worshipped as a god, which was why the staff was destroyed. The staff was never intended to be a god to be worshipped.
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@Mopac
The staff Moses created by Moses was set up and worshipped as a god, which was why the staff was destroyed.
You Haven't answered the questions have you. You haven't supplied the evidence for your claims. WILD claims.
You aren't even talking about what I Am, you have a nonargument.
This is the argument. Stop being so ignorant and read it slowly.
“You Shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything"
This^^^^^ above^^^^ is the title and theme of this discussion it is what I am and what is being discussed, on MY THREAD. This Is what you have been commenting on and arguing about, stop trying to say we are discussing different things when it is clear to all reading here that is not the case, so stop your deceitful practice
You STILL haven’t provided single shred of evidence that supports this claim of yours that you insist states there are exceptions to this god’s commandment: here is what you have stated for all to see>>
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course.
Where is your evidence?
You have also claimed that the bible explains why it is that “some graven images are acceptable, saying
Mopac wrote: The preceding and following verses clear this up handedly.
Well now why didn’t you say to begin with then? That’s all fine, now is all you have to do is put these verses up and let us see them.
Images in synagogue of all places.
I know. I am not arguing they are there and in existence am I? Ijust want you to explain why is it that ALL graven images are forbidden by gods strict command, yet the temple has gigantic graved images inside and out that go against gods direct command given by god to Moses? These particular graven images didn’t seem to offend god Or Hezekiah? Why!!!?
But the staff with a healing serpent entwined around it and made by Moses at GOD'S personal behest and to gods strict design, Hezekiah found this an abomination!Why?
But if you want real confirmation, ask a rabbi,
I have. and priest and nun.
My Answer to your post 47 that I read and didn't ignore, is that your post 47 doesn’t answer single one of these questions concerning Graven Images that are Taboo on the strict command of god almighty himself?
Back in those days and even for thousands of years since, people worshipped statues and images as being gods.
They did, but we are talking SPECIFICALLY about one kind people only aren’t we: Hebrews/Israelites aren’t we? and the strict commands of their god. Trying to drag all people under one umbrella isn’t going to get you off this terrible dilemma you are now in.
The interpretation that we are not tomake any images, statues, or anything like that is actually very common in a lot of protestant circles,
It doesn’t answer my questions, I don’t care what Christians do and think today, I don’t care who worships graved images in the21st century, so please so stop with the filibustering, simply put up the verses that you say excuses the MAKING of graven images and put up the evidence that god says Graven images can be made “with certain guidelines”.
And of course I would like to see that evidenced for this statement you also made>>
It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.
The bible contradict you. it clearly say ANYTHING, You keep shying away from this fact. You cannot get around it so you have lied instead. show us the verses that prove you right. Show us where god states as you say ; "
"Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines" . The truth is you have no answer and you have lied.
You haven't done any favours to your god but instead did him a great disservice..
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@Stephen
"Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
I have nothing more to say to you but this...
Repent and turn away from your wickedness.
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@Mopac
I have nothing more to say to you but this...Repent and turn away from your wickedness.
This is the extent of Mopac's so called "debating" skills.
Reminds me of the soap box preachers in Hyde Park.
Repent and turn away from your wickedness.
I will think about "repenting" when you show me the evidence you have for these statements you made below.
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course.
What are these "certain guidelines" and where can I read them?
Mopac wrote: The preceding and following verses clear this up handedly.
Then you should have no problem producing these "preceding" and "following" verses and explain to me how they actually explain away this biblical hypocrisy.
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.
So you keep saying, but without evidence to support this claim that goes against gods strict commands not to make "Graven Images anything"
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@Stephen
This is why I accuse you of not listening. I have answered many of these questions multiple times already. Maybe you'd listen better if you didn't break posts up like someone who can't keep their mouth shut when someone is talking to them.
What are these "certain guidelines" and where can I read them?
This might best explain what I am telling you.
Then you should have no problem producing these "preceding" and "following" verses and explain to me how they actually explain away this biblical hypocrisy
"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
You are not to make an image to serve it.
Your totally iconoclastic interpretation is wrong, and besides this being shown by context, it is also shown in Moses' use of images. The only way your interpretation can make sense is for you to call Moses stupid. I am more inclined to believe that you are wrong, and simply being arrogant in your refusal to accept this.
And your last question is answered by the preceding two answers.
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@Mopac
Its astounding that you think repeating the same pointless nonsense over and over is somehow answering questions.This is why I accuse you of not listening. I have answered many of these questions multiple times already.
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@Mopac
Your totally iconoclastic interpretation is wrong,
Yes that is all you have to say and have to fall back on, that good ole' chestnut that it is my interpretation, STOP with the BS, just for once.
It is not MY interpretation; it is what is written by your god. They are not my words or my contradictions. Look below , YOU posted this yourself and it is quite clear, what it says;
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing”!!!!
"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.Thou shalt have no other gods before me.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
So not only does it say DO NOT make ANYTHING it also clear not to bow down to ANY OTHER GOD, he says this because there were, in existence OTHER GODS, as Genesis make perfectly clear.
I know and understand the commandments better than you it seems. These verses do not explain the exemptions you speak about. In fact they reinforce my argument concerning not to MAKE ANY GRAVEN IMAGES as you have posted above yourself. SO, let me remind you again of what you have said:
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course.
Your link does not show any biblical exception or “certain guidelines” that allowed the ancient Hebrews to make ANY Graven images.
I read your link. I don’t know long it took you to trawl for this but you wasted your time. It goes nowhere to explain the exemption you insists existed at the time of Hezekiah or Moses .
And these thoughts of what it means now, today, to a SCULPTOR! in the 21st century certainly didn’t exist at the time the commandments were handed down to Moses, or when Hezekiah decided for himself the healing Serpent Staff made by Moses on his gods strict command and design, was an abomination.
Excuse me if I laugh. ☺☺☺☺☺
So that is a MASSIVE fail again on your part.
A passage from your link. I suggest you read carefully.
“Tobi Kahn, an artist who has thought a lot about this issue. He said it seemed clear to him that the root of the law was idolatry, and because he doesn’t see people worshipping idols or images anymore, and because we don’t know what God looks like, he doesn’t worry much about the issue of graven images. He doesn’t see any problem creating an image of a full human body”.
So let’s see: An artist who makes a living creating and selling his art and teaching art and who was born in 1952 is telling us it is quite alright to create graven images.
So this is your evidence is it? The opinion of 21st century artist giving his views on what he thinks god meant millennia ago by the words; “do not create ANYTHING above or below”? And when King Solomon built the first Temple in the 10th century BC with GIANT GRAVEN IMAGES of heavenly angelic faced Cherubs .
Excuse me if I laugh☺☺☺☺☺
Tobi Kahn is an American painter and sculptor. Kahn lives and works in New York City and is on the faculty at the School of Visual Arts.
None of the above shows me where there are exceptions to the rule as you insist there is. The verses you have produced only reiterate god's command not to make images or bow down to other gods.
Whoever is teaching you their version of these scriptures you should fire with immediate effect?And start learning for yourself. Start with a clean slate and read them as a history. You will discover that there is a lot more to these scriptures than your teachers will ever want you to know.
Oh and you failed again by the way.
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@Stephen
It is not MY interpretation;
Riiiiight
You seriously sound like a religious fanatic, I hope you know that.
And believe me, I know a few.
Not really interested to hear what you have to say anymore, you have been dismissed by me as a lunatic.
Now you can accuse me of not listening, and you'd be right because I just ignored everything you said after this.