Naruto Mafia DP1

So, I urge you two to call off the nuclear warfare... For now, anyway. If new evidence emerges, we can discuss... But I see little use in continuing drilling that rabbit hole further.

Meh it's not really a nuclear war now lol it's kinda simmered down into a friendly discussion of the rights and wrongs of playing mafia. Still think he's scum but I'm ok leaving it up to a cop or whoever. Very much want to lynch GP

i dont think pattern is scum but so far hes proven himself to be unhelpful towards town an is wasting our time 

VTL pattern 

I make up over a sixth of the total posts.

I have my suspicion of at least 1 scum but there is no way I can mount a case on DP1 against him. Tracking is the easiest way to check.

Because there were 12 players, so it had a perfect 9 to 3 town to mafia ratio. It's really unlikely to put 3-P's in games like those where the ratio is perfect

This is what you sound like:

You (mafia): Haha guys I'm third party rekttttt

Town: Uh  that doesn't make sense because of the perfect ratio + behavioral reasons *lynches you*

You: HOW DARE YOU LYNCH ME, I COULD'VE BEEN THIRD PARTY

...but you weren't

For the investigating you stuff, sure lol. But the lynch was justified

Supa: "Second, you seem to want to be kept alive, if you won already, you shouldn't care", "I have a strong time believing that justification at all. It just seems like a cop out fmpov", "Because I had a feeling your scum buddy was gonna try to drive the train away from you and focus on someone else. Furthermore, I think this is a gambit that you are doing to prevent yourself from getting lynched, playing the "third party" role. I have a hard time believing that was your motivation. I think you did that to prey on a noob. With GP, you were much more subtle and outted yourself in general", "Lunatic literally has no utility to town besides his "support." You don't even know if he's lying. ", "I still think your bullshitting this entire thing. It just seems to convenient IMO",  "2) it's a 12 person setup, the optimal formula is 9v3, a 9v2v1 is a disadvantage.", "3) yes, but i believing you are lying just by behavior, and yes i am aware. i am saying you are lying", 

Did Supa have some bad reasons for voting you? Absolutely, but he had some very good ones too. The vote wasn't unsubstantiated in the slightest.

"A guilty means you are anti town, whatever your role is. "

He's technically right, the drafterman list cops 3-P who can win with town as innocent. I was too busy to say this in the DP. He didn't know that ofc but still.

Also, warren literally says this: "For what it's worth I have [put third parties] in 10 player games before."

Also if I recall correctly, during one of the quickfires you literally said that we should policy lynch 3p's lol. I could be wrong tho

Also intermission, you said this in that game and I meant to respond but forgot but I was reading over everything and this made me remember: "Speed is a new mod, he literally asked me for help balancing his last game. And you... Well, how do I put this nicely?"

New is a stretch, and just because I'm a new mod doesn't mean my style of counting 3p's is incorrect lol

They agreed with his reasons. That's not a crime (although I'm sure there were some that voted with out thinking lol so you'd be justified for being mad at them)

...but you weren't, so this is a moot point lol

So this is really just you being mad that your gambit didn't go how you planned lol

Clearly you did hear plenty of solid reasons as outlined above

Totally different. In my game I literally said there was a 3P at the start lol. And the lynch would not have happened anyway because the factors that led us to lynch you in the first place would've been different (e.g., the ratio would've been acceptable for 3P, your attitude would've more closely matched your attitude when you were lyncher in my game, etc.).

And if the factors weren't different well then you would've been lynched because logic pointed towards you being scum

Linking his is more efficient than typing out the exact same stuff lol. And the vote stuff is valid, just not allowed by the COC. As long as you can clearly explain the reasons if directly asked, you're justified.

I'm saying that whether or not it was anti-town is irrelevant because it's towny. And he did eventually explain his motivations.

I've read literally everything so try again.\

Looking back I think it was because you were roleplaying, the way you did it make you seem pompous and self-assured which caused an air of aggression, at least to me.

And I should've said tunneled, being aggressive isn't inherently scummy

OMGUS doesn't necessarily have to involve voting, it can be just general scum reading. You've scum read literally every person who has said something negative about you and a lot of them have given reasons.

I've been in your spot multiple times, but I never self-voted, hence why you self-voting makes me think you're scum lol.

II'm very busy so linking Chris' post for example is just easier for me if I have to catch up on like 10 pages before going back to work. Next time maybe just ask "why are you voting me" instead of insta-scum reading someone

Also I didn't realize you were bald lol

Look at skittlez, I asked him to justify a read and he doubled down and voted me because of it.

There's actually very few set ups where you can actually consider thirdparties balanced. You've probably noticed I rarely put them in games I mod, andthat is why. They really only make sense in small game situations like 6 playercounts, 1 maf, 1 3rd, and 4 towns. And mods should count them towards townnumbers when factoring the win imo for best balance. All that aside, we have noway of knowing how a mod will design a game with thirds. Your own game, the oneI wasn't lynched in, the balance made even less sense as it allowed for like 1mislynch. Not shaming you for an old game, just pointing out that most modsdon't really consider the balance implications when designing the game. Theyhave a character that to them makes most sense as 3p and just throw it in andhope for the best.

The part with you quoting town? Yeah didn'thappen. Supa is the only one who mentioned anything about numbers not makingsense (again refuted above) and literally everyone else just voted. 

If it was justified, I'd have liked to have heard why during the game, not after it ;-) Also supa was a hypocrite that game. In Stormlight he got mislynched dp1 before he even knew he had a wagon. He had a right to be pissed off there. But then went and did it to me in dp1 of the very next game. Remember he was "gut" reading me without a reason from DP1 based on a ridiculous argument (that was wrong btw) about mod psyching how roles were set up. 

All of his "behavior" arguments were unsubstantiated 100%. Saying you read someone based on behavior and not explaining what that behavior is, isn't a behavioral read. It was a gut read. How do you respond to a gut read logically? You can't, and in general lynching people off gut reads alone is not encouraged the same way vigging people on them isn't. 

Most mods usually mod 3ps as guilty as status qou, though I like drafters method. I think common understanding is 3p = guilty regardless of intent.

Also, warren literally says this: "For what it's worth I have [put third parties] in 10 player games before."

Which is what I was saying...

You're probably thinking of Pie. I'm generally pretty against policy lynches in general. I think the only one I've pushed is policy lynching troll behavior like greyparrots.

Like I said, accounting for 3p's your generally gonna have badly balanced matches. That doesn't mean a mod is or isn't likely to include one in their games.\

People didn't say that. They just voted. You can assume they agreed with his reasons, but thats an assumption, and you know what they say about assumers...

And you wouldn't have cared if you were wrong lol.

That's even worse of a problem. That's "Bearman" logic. Bearman was lynching me in this game saying even if I was town he was justified. The mindset of "I'm not gonna learn from being wrong because I don't care" Is a slippery slope that leads to making repeat mistakes.

The point is I would have liked to have been given the time of day and on almost any game of DDO I would have. The fact that players are too lazy to even care to think about why someone would or wouldn't do something and just vote on something based on face value says a lot about the current mafia community. 

Post game, not in game.

The ratio was off from the start what you mean lol.

And if the factors weren't different well then you would've been lynched because logic pointed towards you being scum

But I wasn't.... OH sh1t see what I did there ;-)

 Skittlez/cookie is really the only one who made it pretty clear that he had no real reasons for lynching you

Linking his is more efficient than typing out the exact same stuff lol. And the vote stuff is valid, just not allowed by the COC. As long as you can clearly explain the reasons if directly asked, you're justified.

To the bolded: But not many people actually do that. Both in debating and in mafia. I've asked multiple people to justify themselves this game. So far your among very few that have.

Look at skittlez, I asked him to justify a read and he doubled down and voted me because of it. Btw I don't see you point to OMGUS at that haha.

I'm saying that whether or not it was anti-town is irrelevant because it's towny. And he did eventually explain his motivations.

Explaining motivations= not guilty? 

If you become a cop I'd love to be your local robber.

Cop: "Sir did you just steal that thing?"

Robber: "Yeah but you see I really needed that thing, so ya know..." 

Cop: "Ah okay, well now that I know your motivation I guess your free to go."

These are the facts:

Ousting doctors is bad for town.

Bear, not being brand new, should know this.

Bear doubles down and defends his action.

Bear never directly admits his mistake, but later in replies refers to it as a mistake.

Why does Bear have an excuse to do an anti-town thing? Would you let me get away with something like that?

I've read literally everything so try again.\

If you have, then you mis-understand what aggression is.

Pattern is a logic spren who doesn't understand human emotions, so I must have been roleplaying badly if I came off as pompous. There were certain points I was literally just qouting things from the book in situations where it humorously seemed like it fit haha.

OMGUS doesn't necessarily have to involve voting, it can be just general scum reading. You've scum read literally every person who has said something negative about you and a lot of them have given reasons.

This is objectively not true. Again, not every response to someone is necessarily suspecting them lol. 

I don't usually self vote either, but I was feeling at a boiling point after the way the last few games have gone. And now I am genuinely more okay with the idea of a lynch of myself anyway. At least someone gave me the time of day and responded to something. Even though you are wrong, I am happy dying in circumstances where I got to say my piece and can confidently say it was listened to and reasoned with. I wouldn't judge you as hard in the endgame.

I asked you why you were voting me several times, remember? Your response to me was "For the third time, read this post" and thus the circle spins back around....

Yeah TheFlyingSpaghettiMonster really had it out for me in the gene pool.

i never actually lynched him when everyone was hopping on the wagon i voted for him later on cuz he was wasting our time ( still kinda is ) 

that being said i pulled my vote off of him cuz GP is our best lead rn 

ill stand by my vote earlier but patterns acting as if i scumread him and was hopping on a bandwagon when all i did was VTNL an said that if i had to choose between him or u itd be him 

I think it's pretty clear at this point both Speed and Pattern are townies, but this nuclear war is still interesting to watch

Speed: Lets use town to check peole.

Also Speed: Let's kill off a town checker cause I don't like quiet people on DP1 who don't engage in theatrical DP1 drama.

That's a niche thing on your part, and I got  a lot of negative feedback about that playstyle, because it made the game no fun when people could auto detect if I was town or not.