US States ENDGAME

Author: Vader

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#1
Vader
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Town wins! (The game fell apart)

ROLES

Vaarka- You are California. Home to Los Angeles with many celebrities, and the infamous Hollywood sign where to your left, there is a gucci store and to your right, there is homeless people sleeping on the streets. If you wanna make it big, come here. You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Danielle- You are Arizona. HOT HOT HOT HOT. Also home to John Mccain, you are essentially hot. Did I mention hot? You are LifeSaver. Each night you may choose to save 1 person of choosing. If a mafia decides to kill them, you will be killed. You win with town

GP- You are New York. Ahh, good ol New York. NYC has 8M people in it, and even has Donald Trump. You are a Stalker 1x. You may learn what actions a certain person did during the night. You win with the town!

Pie- You are Maine. You have good crabs here and have tall lighthouses and fake Portland. You are also the closest north to Canada I think in this game, so share the maple syrup eh? You are Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Ethang- You are Illinois. Home to corrupt leaders and the infamous failed 2016 Olympic bid, you kinda suck. This is my home state so, I like you. Also this home to Kanye West so whoop di scoop di poop on! You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Drafter- 
You are Texas. Big, bad, sexy, Texas. Home of Good Barbeque and some hot women, your just BAD. You are a Cop. Each night you may select a player. You will learn whether that player is Town (innocent) or Mafia (guilty). If roleblocked, you will receive “no result.” You win with the Town.

SCUM

Budda- You are Florida. The sunshine state or aka hurricane death land. Geez bro you catch a break from that now your fish are shooting up from the sea? You are a Goon. You have no special abilities. You win with the Mafia.

Hammer- You are South Dakota. Home of Mount Rushmore and Badlands, you have some pretty cool natural sights and a state I have visited. You are a Goon. You have no special abilities. You win with the Mafia

Overall I felt I did a decent job modding for a noob mod. Sure it wasn't anything compared to Lunatic or Budda. But it was solid. I am going to respond to any feedback about the game in the comment and answer general concerns and statements!

Gameplay: There were many times that Budda looked scummy. Even through DP1, as an active mafia player, I would have scum read him and Drafters guilty find on him really would have made me push a lynch. Drafter almost cost town game, but town comes back and Hammer basically concedes to some extent? Idrk what happened. Activity really sucks. Danielle really didn't play and ethang5 got banned. I will address this soon, but the town did a good job coming back from behind to some extent. 

I have no MVP. It would have been Drafter, but the town decided to VTNL. I would say MVP was mafia for forcing a no lynch.

Modding In Game: People had a lot of concerns about replacements and things like that in game. To my response, it makes the game fair. Ethang5 is banned and Danielle was out. Waiting to get a VTNL is cheap play and I want to make a game as fair as possible. This was the fairest way. To Hammer, it is not bastardizing in fact it was needed. Taking advantage is bastardizing and your strat is unfair.

My mod fluff was out of fun. Sorry if it offended ;/

Theme/Balance: Fmpov, balance was not an issue. A goon mafia has the same role as a town cop. Having a cop/healer/cop 1x vs a 2x town cop is not unfair. It favors town, but it is balanced especially with stalker out first night. I think it was very fair and balance. I will gladly have a debate about this!

I felt like it kinda sucked that there wasn't a premise what sort of Maf v Town subcategories for States are, but if you could classify, it would States I Have Not Visited As Of 10/8/18 minus Illinois vs States I Have Visited. If I had to choose. 

I felt my modding was a 7.5/10. Not best, not worse. LMK down below
#2
drafterman
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I have no MVP. It would have been Drafter, but the town decided to VTNL. I would say MVP was mafia for forcing a no lynch.
I pushed for the VTNL because that's what you do at MYLO. With a CC, there would have been no reason for Town to choose my results over Buddas.
#3
drafterman
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Hammer had me fooled. I thought the last scum was among Pie or Vaarka.
#4
Buddamoose
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@Vader
A goon mafia has the same role as a town cop. Having a cop/healer/cop 1x vs a 2x town cop is not unfair. It favors town, but it is balanced especially with stalker out first night. I think it was very fair and balance. I will gladly have a debate about this!

Ok, go ahead and explain how a goon is the same as a cop. And how does deaths via a game affect overall balance to game at start/overall? 

Did you know beforehand one of the PR's would be killed? 

Having a bodyguard does actually offer less of an advantage. But in an even playered game town starts with an extra lynch than would otherwise be had with seven. 

Classic set up at 7 players has 2 goons, town cop and doc. But it's also a night start, which means mafia get a kill first and PR's get results. This totally changes balance concerns. 

Overall it wasn't a super I'm balanced set-up, really just minor. But you straight rigged the game by adding GP back in when he was killed specifically to get him out of the game.

Then extending LYLO by whole two additional days? Town came back because you fed them that comeback. 3 day DP for DP3 like every previous results in a no lynch. 

Like I said in the chatzy. I can understand frustrations that games fall apart due to inactivity. But thats no excuse for directly countering as a mod the only tool you gave mafia in the game to influence the direction of DP's beyond communication, the night kill. 

In the future, try running replacements by mafia first. If there is reasonable objection, heed it. "We killed this person to get them out of the game" is a more than valid reason. You basically countered one of the fundamental advantages mafia has in the game itself. That is control of which townies remain in the game and which don't. 

If you want to still do it, it's your game, by all means do so, I'll just sit out future ones. 
#5
Buddamoose
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@drafterman
I essentially mirrored you most of DP1. You were rightfully sus if that's what you noticed 😂. You said you buddied me though. Breh, I was up ur ass DP1. Then shallowly deviated when deviating was totally meaningless. 

Idk what GP was going on about emojis. But me sheeping you and deviating only right at the end, was a huge tell 😂. "He's been doing much the same as me, can't exactly scum read him". I saw that and was like, "shit he noticed 😂😂" 


#6
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I essentially mirrored you most of DP1. You were rightfully sus if that's what you noticed 😂. You said you buddied me though.
Yeah, it is what I noticed, and in response I buddied you back with stuff like this: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/426?page=10&post_number=250


#7
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Sorry Buddhasan.
#8
drafterman
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Here are my deeper thoughts into the game.

Budda - I won't claim some sort of magical insight here, but when I get buddied that triggers something of a Spider Sense. You're lucky I was a cop instead of a vig. I was Day Vig once in a game where LordKnukle was buddying me and I blasted him off the face of the planet. If I was vig I would have 100% just NKd you. You were smart to have NKd me because I was going to come out full guns blazing DP3.

GP - I think GP did a good job appearing as Town and unfortunately that's what probably got him killed.

Pie - I regret pushing for his lynch, but as I said I felt the posts DP1 were a bit fluffy. I loved the DP3 analysis though and I think Pie helped save the game in this regard.

Vaarka - I would have wished for a bit more participation. Lots of complaints and confusion about what is going on. If you're going to play mafia, you gotta be active. The reason me and Budda were going on and on for pages and pages were because we were the only ones being active. You can't let the other side control the narrative so as long as they're being active, you have to be active as well. So I couldn't just sit back and do nothing while Budda tried to gear the town towards a mislynch. Rather than complaining about how much there is to read, participate. Engage.

TheHammer - Lurking scum.

Ethang - This is why beginners should always do a beginner game. All he did was provide a distraction exacerbated by his refusal to actually reevaluate the game in response to criticism. I partially blame the rest of Town as the only other person really critiquing his logic was Budda, who (for obvious reasons) did a weak job of it.


#9
Buddamoose
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@drafterman
I won't claim some sort of magical insight here, but when I get buddied that triggers something of a Spider Sense

I'll need to remember this. Usually buddying an active player works decent, but that's if the person isn't inclined to be sus of those who buddy 😂. 
#10
drafterman
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I think mostly here it was because I don't normally consider you the buddying type when you're town.
#11
Buddamoose
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@drafterman
Idk it all depends. Mafia is as much a game of persuasion as it is behavioral analysis fmpov. Like if i have a strong TR on someone, I'ma buddy em or not find it sus if someone strong TR's me then buddies me.

If town can generally get a bloc of 2 or 3 votes together they can usually dictate DP's. The concern would be that scum are in that bloc tho. 

#12
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@Buddamoose
were you mad when I susp you? :) I was gonna confirm by stalking if you didn't kill me.
#13
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@Greyparrot
lol I was a little miffed at the emoji thing. But ur reads are fairly accurate generally and you can lead town to lynches fairly well. So it was a big enough threat to merit removing you. 

Tbh i thought you were cop too 😂
#14
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@Buddamoose
Hahahaha...it was your poker tell.
#15
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@Buddamoose
Fear the parrot.
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#16
Vader
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@Buddamoose
Ok, go ahead and explain how a goon is the same as a cop. And how does deaths via a game affect overall balance to game at start/overall? 
Ok here we go. 

A townie vanilla has literally an useless role. You can only lynch and vote to be lynched in a DP. Mafia goons actually kill. Taking out a townie is vital to the game for mafia. A vanilla town serves less of a purpose in.
Did you know beforehand one of the PR's would be killed? 
No
Having a bodyguard does actually offer less of an advantage. But in an even playered game town starts with an extra lynch than would otherwise be had with seven. 
The odds of a BG hitting a lynched player are 1/7. Very low
Classic set up at 7 players has 2 goons, town cop and doc. But it's also a night start, which means mafia get a kill first and PR's get results. This totally changes balance concerns. 
It was 6 v 2. 1 full cop, 1, 1x cop, and 1 heal vs 2 goons. I see the frustration here, but fmpov as a mod, I felt it was somewhat balanced

Overall it wasn't a super I'm balanced set-up, really just minor. But you straight rigged the game by adding GP back in when he was killed specifically to get him out of the game.
Will be trying to do better balance next time. Not the biggest concern.
Then extending LYLO by whole two additional days? Town came back because you fed them that comeback. 3 day DP for DP3 like every previous results in a no lynch. 
I knew people would be inactive during the weekend + the extended day off. I wanted to give as much time as physically possible for a fair DP. A mafia drainage is bad play especially with replacements. N
Like I said in the chatzy. I can understand frustrations that games fall apart due to inactivity. But thats no excuse for directly countering as a mod the only tool you gave mafia in the game to influence the direction of DP's beyond communication, the night kill. 
I did not directly counter your move. It was either drafter or grey. Grey was the best bet bc he didn't use his power role. Drafter found you guilty NP1. Which one would you rather have? Danielle wen't afk and Ethang5 got banned. It practically in DP2 was a 4v2 in DP2 and Pie gave game balance coming in. Yes it may have been a ehh move, but would you rather have GP or Drafter who already had scum info on you?
In the future, try running replacements by mafia first. If there is reasonable objection, heed it. "We killed this person to get them out of the game" is a more than valid reason. You basically countered one of the fundamental advantages mafia has in the game itself. That is control of which townies remain in the game and which don't. 
I'll take fault for this one. Should've confirmed with mafia it is ok. Busy and kind of frustrated that town was stalling without a vote. Shouldn't have acted that way

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#17
Vader
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@drafterman
In an 8 player game. I would not give a role blocking character for mafia. It leans scum 100%
#18
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Inactivity is definitely bad play, but it's not your job to make town play better. If town engages in bad play, they should lose. Period.
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#19
Vader
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@TheHammer
Fair, but town can't control inactivity or who gets banned. 
#20
TheHammer
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@Vader
If the person that gets banned is town, and they were banned because of their own actions, then town literally did control who was banned.
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#21
Vader
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@TheHammer
But he probably was banned due to other reasons, not for game in general

7 days later

#22
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I knew both scum on d1 because of how much more active and emotional Hammer was being. Budda was using far less emojis and far more serious-toned. The only one who confused me was the trump image guy, he was scummy as fuck.
#23
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@Vader
A townie vanilla has literally an useless role. You can only lynch and vote to be lynched in a DP. Mafia goons actually kill. Taking out a townie is vital to the game for mafia. A vanilla town serves less of a purpose in.

The question was how a town cop is the same as a mafia goon. This doesn't explain how they are magically of equivalent balance. It's pretty clear you think town is somehow magically severely disadvantaged in this game when played on a forum. 

Do you understand this isnt a game really meant for forums? One of the big lessons of the game as it's played in person is that a town with pen and paper will almost always win. The nature of forums balances out the gained advantage of recorded posts that can be re-examined. But it still leaves mafia highly disadvantaged. 

So I'll ask again, because you clearly didn't comprehend the questions:

How do deaths during a game affect balance at game start? Last i checked, deaths in game don't factor much into balance beyond town/mafia ratios. 

How is a mafia goon like a town cop? 

It was 6 v 2. 1 full cop, 1, 1x cop, and 1 heal vs 2 goons. I see the frustration here, but fmpov as a mod, I felt it was somewhat balanced

And im telling you, in a 7 player classic set up with 2x goon and 1x cop and doc, that game is balanced because its night start and it's MYLO D1(4 v 2), unless doc makes a save. That game type has about a 50/50 win ratio when played with 10 min DP's/NP's. 

You had 6 v 2 at D1, no night start, and mafia had to pull off one ML and 2 VTNL's, or 2 ML's and a VTNL. Still only two goons, and now instead of just 10 min, town has 3 days(5 whole days for LYLO, like wtf?!)

knew people would be inactive during the weekend + the extended day off. I wanted to give as much time as physically possible for a fair DP. A mafia drainage is bad play especially with replacements. 

First off, this game doesn't require 100% attention at all times. Holidays happen, that doesn't entitle you to disadvantage mafia in a game where they were already severely disadvantaged by extending the DP two whole days. 

"Mafia drainage?" You mean killing off active players? Bruh it doesn't matter whether you think its "bad play" as if your opinion of that even holds much weight given your apparent lack of comprehension for game meta. Regardless, it doesn't matter how you think any affiliation or player is playing. It's not your business as a mod to counter that. 

Killing off actives and stalling town is a more than legitimate strategy and one of the primary strats even live and in person. Just cause you don't like a strat, doesn't mean you are entitled to actively counter that. Town had 6 days previous to lynch scum and didn't. 

You talk about "fair' but it's pretty obvious you have a perverted sense of fair if you think it's fair to directly count er an already disadvantaged teams strat because their strategy is *gasp* working. 

What next, telling teams that are trouncing another in sports to stop playing defense so well cause the other team cant score? Like TF 😂

Not to mention

I did not directly counter your move. It was either drafter or grey. Grey was the best bet bc he didn't use his power role.

Yes, you did directly counter it. And though it's not fair to town that Ethan was banned, its also equally unfair to mafia when you replace the banned person with someone mafia doesn't want replacing in. The actions of players inside or outside the game doesn't entitle you to rig the game against one side or another. 

Some games die because of inactivity. I've had games die like that too, suck it up and realize the disappointment of that happening doesn't justify, again, countering one of the only tools you gave mafia(the NK), and disadvantage/rig the game to towns favor even more. 

I think its pretty clear your lack of confidence in reads as town as in essence admitted by you previously, has lead you to think town is extremely disadvantaged in Mafia. When in forum mafia, town actually has an advantage not usually present. 

If you think finding scum is hard in forums, try playing the game in person without being able to use a pen and paper to take notes. Vote Count Analysis becomes much harder, lying becomes much easier, contradictions in reasoning aren't easily noticed, and more. 

Even still, in that situation games tend to split 50/50. You can "feel" this game was balanced all you want, that won't change that it wasn't and you made it worse by serving town the win because our strategy of killing actives was actually working. 

Yeah, safe to say, I'll be sitting out any games you mod in the future. Not gonna play in games officiated by someone who thinks playing to win and common strats to accomplish that are unfair. Not seen anything so ass backwards in a long time 

What next? "Bruh, you gotta stop double teaming when ur on defense, it's unfair to the wide reciever trying to run his route and catch the ball, its just bad play." 😂

#24
Greyparrot
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@Buddamoose
#25
Buddamoose
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@Greyparrot
Yeah sure, salt. Please do tell me more about how playing to win a game with an effective strategy and having what little tools that were provided countered by the officiator as "unfair" and "bad play." 

I see you too consider double teaming star players while on defense in a sports game and making the non star players beat you is unfair. You must have been garbage at sports 😂.

This game was the equivalent of a basketball game where one team takes a 10+ point lead because the other team doesn't know how to counter a 2-3 zone trap scheme, so he just starts calling BS blocking and reaching fouls to get the other team back in the game. 

In some parts that kinda behavior doesn't just get you chastised, it gets you taken out back and whooped for rigging a game 😂. Hell yeah I'm salty, most people would be. 
#26
Greyparrot
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I'm just kidding lol.