COC in Mafia?

Author: PressF4Respect

Posts

Total: 32
Topic's author
#1
PressF4Respect
PressF4Respect's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,159
3
8
11
PressF4Respect's avatar
PressF4Respect
3
8
11
Recently, there was a statement made that, had it been made outside of a mafia game, could have possibly warranted moderator action. In light of this, there is one issue that I feel deserves attention.

Should the COC apply to mafia games? If so, then to what degree? Should the whole COC apply, or just certain portions?

What do you guys think?
#2
Crocodile
Crocodile's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 1,156
3
4
10
Crocodile's avatar
Crocodile
3
4
10
yes it should. mafia is part of the forum, there's no reason it should be an exception.
#3
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Crocodile
100% agree.
#4
warren42
warren42's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,888
3
3
6
warren42's avatar
warren42
3
3
6
I personally think there should be some leeway but by and large they should. (Then there's going to be some obvious exceptions, for example, advocating for the "killing" of other users, as we know that it's within the context of the game.)
#5
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,403
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
No. The game is psychological for a reason. If there’s a problem let the process take place and leave the decision to the mods.
#6
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,988
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
There are already rules about mafia that are established. However, mafia is a game of manipulation and arguing, so you tend to get more aggressive when playing the game itself. Competition fuels battles. We should not be banned based off these bouts. I don't think getting tazed in the balls is a threat is in any way endangering you, especially in a simulation based game. If the threats turn constant, then actions should be taken, but most of the time this doesn't occur. I have been told off many times in mafia and I don't sit and cry about it on a forum. If you believe the same rules and expections for the CoC should apply to mafia, you are not mentally strong 
#7
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,988
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@Crocodile
The CoC already does apply, however it givers leniency due to the simulation based nature which is mafia. You have to interrogate and get your point through by any means. It is harsh, but that's mafia. If you believe that's abuse, you are not mentally strong. 

#8
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,988
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
Granted, I do think oro's statement was a bit unconventional, and a bit shocking, it should be up to the host
#9
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Vader
If you believe that's abuse, you are not mentally strong. 
If you don't believe that gang-bullying andverbally harassing a user who is simply in a game to have fun and play well is abuse, you are mentally broken and refusing to get therapy rather than they themselves being 'weak' for feeling unhappy about it. Bullying is not okay, stop victim-blaming.
#10
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,988
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@RationalMadman
You were not being bullied. You were voted off because you were inherently being anti town.
#11
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,988
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@RationalMadman
Being voted off is not a bully complex, it's a simulation based game where logic and reason result in the vote of someone to be lynched. There were many case reads against you that proved you were acting scummy, hence why we voted you
#12
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Vader
This isn't about me, Speedrace has been bullied brutally by Wylted and I've been informed that this was treated leniently. I know this because it was me who reported Wylted/Singularity's posts as I was reading mafia to think 'should I get into this game?' and the first thread I saw had Wylted/Singularity being unbelievably racist towards Speedrace making disgusting racist jokes. I had no idea until this recent incident that he wasn't sufficiently punished for it.
#13
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Vader
Just because I was a victim, doesn't make this about me. What happened is an example of a systemic issue.
#14
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,988
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@RationalMadman
This is true, and the only reason he was not banned was because a stupid rule that moderators can be targetted to harassment without any action. This led to Wylted's blatent racism where no action was taken, which was mistake. That rule has changed
#15
Crocodile
Crocodile's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 1,156
3
4
10
Crocodile's avatar
Crocodile
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5
But you do think, "taze your genitals" is a bit overboard right? I'm not saying it's bannable material but at least a harsh warning would do.
#16
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,403
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Crocodile
But you do think, "taze your genitals" is a bit overboard right? I'm not saying it's bannable material but at least a harsh warning would do.
I think it was a joke and not a legitimate threat, so know. I prefer the following of Brandenburg v Ohio
#17
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Crocodile
Specifically the letters 'IRL' on top of it.
#18
warren42
warren42's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,888
3
3
6
warren42's avatar
warren42
3
3
6
I think it was a joke and not a legitimate threat, so know. I prefer the following of Brandenburg v Ohio
I agree with your conclusion but this is a terrible argument. Just because you cite a SCOTUS ruling doesn't mean that this falls under that jurisdiction. That case has nothing to do with how a private website and its moderators decide to enforce their code of conduct. If I made a website and said that users can't say the word "poop" I could enforce that and it wouldn't be illegal. It's not an infringement on someone's rights under 1A when it's a private business or organization doing so. You can argue that they still should allow free speech, but it seems like by saying you prefer following the case that you think the case applies here.

Either the argument is bad because it's wrong or it's bad because it's unclear.
#19
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,486
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
For easy reference, here is the post in question (#221):
Added07.03.20 10:01AM
-->@RationalMadman
-> @oromagi
You are confused. I can be lynched and still win. In a ga.e where death is inevitable, I do not need to pander to you and beg for mercy. Go ahead, do not think for one second you are owed a claim by me more than you owe me your claim. You're not town, I do not fear the rushed bandwagon here, I do not fear losing either. Do what you want.

Non-responsive.  IRL I would taser your genitals about now. 

ZAP!

Why won't you answer the question?  Please provide character claim now.

And here is the public moderation action (#410):
Added07.03.20 09:51PM
-->@oromagi
***
Regarding: #221, two things:
  1. It is understood to be a hypothetical statement, as the odds of you all being kidnapped into a real life game like this are null.
  2. Mafia games are by nature mostly self-regulating. Whatever bad thing someone says in a game, is for better or worse, their tactic in that game.
That said, please tone it down in future. 
***

With that done, I need to address some myths that have been circulated ad nauseam:
  1. There was no moderator intervention!
    As seen above, clearly there was; and before any threads were made about it too. That we did not jump to a ban, is not the same as no action.
  2. The lack of any intervention was due to favoritism!
    Again, there was intervention to discourage this type of thing in future. Further, Mafia games being less regulated has been the standard for awhile, with many easy to find examples, even ones where it goes against the alleged favorite (Total Drama Island).
  3. User_2006 quit the site in protest!
    I'm going to believe User_2006 when he says that is false.
#20
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Barney
Want me to  quote myself retorting you in the main subforums thread? 
#21
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,486
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
-->
@RationalMadman
You may respond as you wish. However, you might be having a comprehension problem. Your opinion of someone receiving a public warning against something, seems to be that such is an endorsement instead of opposition (#13): "Why is it ok to say that just because it's a mafia game? Why is it ever okay to say what he said???"
#22
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Barney
Why do you think he's your friend? Tell me, I want to understand.

#23
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,486
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
-->
@RationalMadman
You might be having a comprehension problem.
#24
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Barney
What's the problem with my comprehension. :) That your verb 'soft warn' was BS and really you patted him on the back and giggled along with what he said? Na, I got no comprehension issue. I've seen you come down harder on Stephen and Disgusted for less severe things. Oromagi should be hard-warned, no soft anything.
#25
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Barney
He hasn't even genuinely said sorry or posted on any of the threads relating to the issue. Why is that?

The most he said is some artificial 'I want the ratman to feel welcome' speech in the mafia game, which was hardly a heartfelt apology.

#26
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,486
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
-->
@RationalMadman
I have made no references to any friendships in this conversation.


really you patted him on the back and giggled along with what he said?
Please point to where I giggled or did anything to imply such?


I've seen you come down harder on Stephen and Disgusted for less severe things
As per the CoC: "The specific consequence will depend on the severity and frequency of the violations..."

In the bans on both stephen and disgusted their patterns along with ignored warnings are referenced as causing it to rise to the point of banning. So yes, this is consistent that people are warned prior to being banned.
#27
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Barney
You keep taking this personal, it is not personal. There is beef but it's between Oromagi and me. You are meant to an unbiased arbiter of the rules, you let him get free wins vs banned users but I can't just because I'm smarter/better at spotting them for you. You don't even understand how much you favour him but that doesn't matter because at least you have the guts to favour him, Virtuoso has been silent this whole time hiding behind you, that's a coward-move from a head mod to do to their vice/deputy.

You are not the issue, the fact Mafia games aren't moderated strongly by default is a major issue.


#28
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,403
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@warren42
I agree with your conclusion but this is a terrible argument. Just because you cite a SCOTUS ruling doesn't mean that this falls under that jurisdiction. That case has nothing to do with how a private website and its moderators decide to enforce their code of conduct. If I made a website and said that users can't say the word "poop" I could enforce that and it wouldn't be illegal. It's not an infringement on someone's rights under 1A when it's a private business or organization doing so. You can argue that they still should allow free speech, but it seems like by saying you prefer following the case that you think the case applies here.

Either the argument is bad because it's wrong or it's bad because it's unclear.
I know it’s not applicable. I’m just saying that’s the standard I’d prefer with regards to the server as a whole but definitely mafia games. Obviously a private organization can do what it wants. My apologies for being unclear.
#29
warren42
warren42's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,888
3
3
6
warren42's avatar
warren42
3
3
6
-->
@ILikePie5
Alright, sorry for putting words in your mouth there
#30
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,403
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@warren42
Alright, sorry for putting words in your mouth there
No worries man