RELIGION POLL #1: Resurrection

Author: MisterChris
Jesus
Christianity
Religion
Poll
Resurrection

Posts

Total: 140
#91
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@wlws9
........by ignoring my posts which have been granted the last word on the subject. (Posts 84, 85, 87) I was looking forward to a heated discussion. Or is everyone just taking a break?
Allow me then to make the last word on the subject.

There is and never was any such thing as the resurrection of any sort any anyone who earnestly believes such an absurd fairy tale is clearly deluded.

Similarly, anyone who preaches such nonsense is a dishonest liar.
I love it when people blanket their false charges with indirect accusations! Basically, you are saying that all Christians believe in fairy tales and are liars. 

Nice discussion! Not a shred of contrary evidence, just assertions. 

There are 66 different books by around 40 different authors spanning over a thousand years that all have common themes of sin, salvation, redemption, a revelation of God and the Messiah. Prophecy always points to a right relationship with God, judgment, the Messiah, and a new covenant. Prophecy is specific to an Old Covenant people and records their dealing and rebellion against God and God's faithfulness in that covenant. The resurrection is witnessed by at least eight NT writers, who willingly die in proclaiming the message of God's good news in Jesus Christ.

There has never been a figure/Person in the whole of human history who has influenced and changed so many people to live in God's grace by trusting in Him as this Jesus Christ.  You do not recognize His greatness because you do not want to, instead, opposing Him with every fabric of your being (if I am identifying you correctly from your previous alias, if not sorry for the misdiagnosis).

Assuming you are this person:

Why? Why do you spend so much time and energy opposing what you call a fairy tale? Why do you appear so angry over the biblical teachings? Is it not good to love others and want the best for them, to devote oneself to helping those less fortunate, to do what is in one's means to fight against injustice and when possible to give food and shelter to the poor and needy, to change lives for the better? Do you not want others to have hope and inspiration? 
#92
wlws9
wlws9's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 12
0
0
0
wlws9's avatar
wlws9
0
0
0
-->
@PGA2.0
Why? Why do you spend so much time and energy opposing what you call a fairy tale? Why do you appear so angry over the biblical teachings? Is it not good to love others and want the best for them, to devote oneself to helping those less fortunate, to do what is in one's means to fight against injustice and when possible to give food and shelter to the poor and needy, to change lives for the better? Do you not want others to have hope and inspiration? 

Basically, you are saying that all Christians believe in fairy tales and are liars. 
Fair comment.
There is some really great stuff in the Bible which I value highly although you could say that, given that the Bible is "a bible" most of its contents have been assembled from many other publications.

I think most Christians take their faith with a grain of salt and when push comes to shove, most do not believe in God, let alone most of the exaggerated anecdotal accounts in the Bible.
For example, a recent census in Australia revealed that less than 14% of Roman Catholics regularly attend Church.

What I do say is that those who firmly believe that there is a God as master are deluded. I have made many posts giving the proof and if you like I will reiterate.

I object to those who hide behind their own anti-social prejudices and use the Bible or their faith to justify such prejudices, for example, homophobia, abortion, unmarried mothers, euthanasia.

Religion, on the face of it, offers comfort and direction to followers, however, it allows followers to live in a world far removed from reality. When you live a lie, you will tell lies in order to maintain your stance.
#93
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
Just so everyone knows, all the wlw alts are fake accounts by the moron Willows who has again broken into the site to tell us how terrible Jesus is - as a public service, (not because he bitter and has OCD).
#94
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@wlws9
Why? Why do you spend so much time and energy opposing what you call a fairy tale? Why do you appear so angry over the biblical teachings? Is it not good to love others and want the best for them, to devote oneself to helping those less fortunate, to do what is in one's means to fight against injustice and when possible to give food and shelter to the poor and needy, to change lives for the better? Do you not want others to have hope and inspiration? 

Basically, you are saying that all Christians believe in fairy tales and are liars. 
Fair comment.
There is some really great stuff in the Bible which I value highly although you could say that, given that the Bible is "a bible" most of its contents have been assembled from many other publications.
Which makes the Bible even more remarkable since the 40 or so different writers, over 1500 years, have a unified and CONSISTENT message.

I think most Christians take their faith with a grain of salt and when push comes to shove, most do not believe in God, let alone most of the exaggerated anecdotal accounts in the Bible.
For example, a recent census in Australia revealed that less than 14% of Roman Catholics regularly attend Church.
Whether they do or not makes no difference as to the existence of God.

What I do say is that those who firmly believe that there is a God as master are deluded. I have made many posts giving the proof and if you like I will reiterate.
To the contrary, I think those who say there is no God are deluded.

Sure give me two of your best points, and don't copy and paste. State two proofs you believe are your strongest so we can discuss them. 

I object to those who hide behind their own anti-social prejudices and use the Bible or their faith to justify such prejudices, for example, homophobia, abortion, unmarried mothers, euthanasia.
As you and others justify your own prejudices. We could take your examples one by one but I will focus on abortion. 

1. Is the unborn a human being?
2. Should all human being have intrinsic value? (I.e., should the law be equally applied or should some groups of human beings be above the law they enforce on others)
3. Is killing innocent human beings just?

Look forward to your answer to these three questions.

Religion, on the face of it, offers comfort and direction to followers, however, it allows followers to live in a world far removed from reality. When you live a lie, you will tell lies in order to maintain your stance.
I question who is removed from reality - the believer or YOU? I say it is those who deny God. I believe they are the ones living and telling the lie.  
#95
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@wlowsi9
I question who is removed from reality - the believer or YOU? I say it is those who deny God. I believe they are the ones living and telling the lie.  
I think it is one very big misunderstanding that theists make in stating that non-believers are denialists.
I'm speaking of the Christian God specifically. There is no other.

Since there is not one iota of evidence as to the existence of God, there is nothing to deny in the first place.

Another denial. 

There is all kinds of evidence for God. With the biblical God there are 66 writings that state over and over again that God said or God spoke. These manuscripts confirm with other external evidences of the times places, people and events. The internal consistency and unity of the Bible is another evidence. Prophecy is another. External to the Bible are the many questions that cannot have certainty without a deity that fits the biblical description.  

198 days later

#96
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
What is the best argument for/against the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus, and why?



The apostles didn't even hang around to witness Jesus die at his crucifixion.  And the stories of the resurrection and who seen him first vary. 


Of the four Gospellers Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they between them only agree on two points: that it was on the third day after the crucifixion Jesus’ tomb is found empty and that the Magdalene was one of those that made the discovery. On all other point all four disagree in their narratives.

This is not to mention that in Mark's original believed to be the earliest gospel according to scholars and tell us Mark never contained the story of Jesus' resurrection but was a later addition by Luke and Mathew. 

And Christians simply have to accept that; no one actually witnessed Jesus actaully being resurrected from the dead ritual, they only witnessed an empty tomb and an empty tome is proof only that the tomb was empty.

Anyway: 
Who returned to the tomb and resting place of Jesus’ corpse?  Take your pick!

“ In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre”. Matthew28:1 KJV

“Now when the Sabbath was passed, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome bought spices that they might come and anoint him”. Mark 16: 1-3 KJV.


“Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James and the other women with them”. Luke 24:10 KJV.

John mentions no one else but Mary;
“Now on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early while it was still dark”. John 20:1 KJV



 Paul doesn’t mention the miraculous ascending into heaven event either, no empty tombs, no disappearance from the grave of the physical body,no physical resurrection, no physical appearances of a Christ who would eat, or that Jesus was elevated physically into heaven after a given time. To Paul the body of Jesus who died was degradable,weak, and physical.

#97
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
No sure what resurrection really means. Jesus didn't come back to life and keep living. His soul crossed over. He didn't walk around alive for years after he died. He appeared to people. I know several mediums who can talk to and see the dead too. 
#98
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,783
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
 I know several mediums who can talk to and see the dead too
Wow, they must have huge brain lesions.


#99
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@FLRW
Says a psychic 
#100
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
No sure what resurrection really means.


 It is the belief that a person can be brought back to life from the "dead" after lying in a grave or tomb  stinking and rotting for days, weeks months or even years.  John: 43-44 & Matthew 27:52 


Jesus didn't come back to life and keep living.

He did according to scripture, well for just over a month anyway..  Ask Thomas, he asked for real, solid and physical evidence of resurrection and by all accounts he got it ,John 20:27.   yet Jesus forbid a woman to touch him at all.  Odd Thomas would doubt  at all in the first place though isn`t  it ?   Considering  that he had already witnessed a resurrection before Jesus was killed? 


His soul crossed over.

Can you explain how this happened?  


I know several mediums who can talk to and see the dead too.

Only several people?  There are millions that see  and talk to Jesus on  a daily basis, if you choose to believe them.  Could you ask these mediums to ask Jesus would he  like to return to my house so I could interview him, and get back to me on that?

70 days later

#101
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@MisterChris
The best evidence for his resurrection.  

Ok, let me think.  

still thinking. 

Duh! - nah you get me there.  


#102
Nevets
Nevets's avatar
Debates: 35
Posts: 57
0
3
9
Nevets's avatar
Nevets
0
3
9
-->
@MisterChris
MisterChris asked...
RELIGION POLL #1: What is the best argument for/against the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus, and why?

The best argument for the resurrection is the alleged 513 witnesses that attested to seeing Jesus after his death.
The best argument against the resurrection is the billions that did not attest to seeing Jesus after his death. 
#103
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Nevets
The best argument for the resurrection is the alleged 513 witnesses that attested to seeing Jesus after his death.
The best argument against the resurrection is the billions that did not attest to seeing Jesus after his death. 
What about those who think seeing him is irrelevant to his resurrection or not?


#104
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
If the soul is eternal we all resurrect at death, just not with our body. 
#105
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
If the soul is eternal we all resurrect at death, just not with our body. 

 But Jesus, by all accounts resurrected bodily, didn't he?  He sat and had a meal and a drink with his disciples.  Do souls eat and drink?  Thomas poked his wounds, didn't he?   Lazarus was "raised from the dead" bodily? The scriptures tell us that " all the graves opened and all the bodies were raised bodily and went walking into the city" .Matthew 27:52

It mentions nothing at all about souls , Witch. The bible only speaks of a bodily resurrection.
#106
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,783
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
Wow, I bet the Pope is glad we didn't have smart phones back then.
#107
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
No idea what the details the visions of Jesus after his death were.  
#108
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
I have just given you the undeniable biblical details , Witch. 
#109
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
The Bible is myth not fact. No proof Jesus is a real person. If they are saying his body rose up then I suppose it did there. But that is not a thing that happens on Earth. 
#110
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
The Bible is myth not fact.

And I haven't said or even suggested it was, have I Witch?

I said "undeniable BIBLICAL details" . But is it  fact that the bible talks only  of  bodily resurrection.


 

If they are saying his body rose up then I suppose it did there.

But you have just said above that  the bible is "myth"




But that is not a thing that happens on Earth. 

Well according to the bible it did happen on earth. It is a fact that the resurrection of the body of Jesus is written about in the bible. 
#111
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
And the Bible is myth. So it can say what it wants to. 
#112
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
And the Bible is myth. So it can say what it wants to. 

It can . but then  why say this>?      "If they are saying his body rose up then I suppose it did there."#109






#113
Matthew_18
Matthew_18's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 19
0
0
0
Matthew_18's avatar
Matthew_18
0
0
0
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
The Bible is myth not fact. No proof Jesus is a real person. If they are saying his body rose up then I suppose it did there. But that is not a thing that happens on Earth. 
The Bible is real and it is only the self-righteous who could ever claim otherwise. It is the most coveted book in existence. That the body of Christ rose is undeniable and I think your point clearly explains the confusion many heathens find it difficult to understand; the resurrection is purely a spiritual thing and has no worldly application whatsoever.
#114
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Matthew_18
I didn't say it wasn't real, I said it's myth.  The Bible is myth like any other religious text. There is no proof any of the stories that happen in myth happen on Earth. There is a reason for that.  And  don't call me names again. 
#115
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Matthew_18
the resurrection is purely a spiritual thing and has no worldly application whatsoever.

 Oh ffs!  You believers are al the fkn same!. You will even deny what is actually written in these scriptures.

Did Thomas touch the wounds of a body or a spirit?John 20:27-29

Do spirits eat and drink ?Acts 10:40-41

Did Lazarus float out of his tomb or walk? John 11:43-44

Did all those dead people rise from their graves bodily and walk into the city. Matthew 27:52

Is it ANY wonder that you Christians  are mocked!!!?
#116
Matthew_18
Matthew_18's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 19
0
0
0
Matthew_18's avatar
Matthew_18
0
0
0
-->
@Stephen
We are mocked only by those who lack the cranial capacity to articulate themselves other than by profanities. Anything you say in that sort of context is invalid.
#117
Matthew_18
Matthew_18's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 19
0
0
0
Matthew_18's avatar
Matthew_18
0
0
0
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
I didn't say it wasn't real, I said it's myth.  The Bible is myth like any other religious text. There is no proof any of the stories that happen in myth happen on Earth. There is a reason for that.  And  don't call me names again. 
Myth and not real are saying the same thing. I did scan my post and it is clearly obvious that I did not call you by any names at all least of all by one name. 
#118
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Matthew_18
Myth and not real are saying the same thing. 
Myth is a story that can't be proven there is nothing that says it didn't happen somewhere else. 
#119
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Matthew_18
Try answering  the questions and show how the resurrection according to the bible is speaking only of a "spiritual" resurrection.

I will agree that Paul contradicts the four gospels. But then Pauldoesn’t mention the miraculous ascending into heaven event either, no empty tombs, no disappearance from the grave of the physical body,no physical resurrection, no physical appearances of a Christ whowould eat, or that Jesus was elevated physically into heaven after agiven time. To Paul the body of Jesus who died was degradable,weak, and physical. 


We are mocked

You are mocked because the second that you are under fire you start reinterpreting the bible, and putting words into the mouths of the authors of, and characters in, these unreliable and ambiguous scriptures.

 I personally do not believe that a  corpse of a dead man that had been laying rotting and stinking for three days was resurrected back to life, but that is not what there bible or the church teaches and preaches , is it?  And now you come along and will have it that the bible doesn't teach bodily resurrection when it clearly does. 


Did Thomas touch the wounds of a body or a spirit?John 20:27-29

Do spirits eat and drink ?Acts 10:40-41

Did Lazarus float out of his tomb or walk? John 11:43-44

Did all those dead people rise from their graves bodily and walk into the city. Matthew 27:52


#120
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Jamball

Resurrection can only ever be sp[iritual 

So these BIBLICAL verses are not true then?




Did Thomas touch the wounds of a body or a spirit?John 20:27-29

Do spirits eat and drink ?Acts 10:40-41

Did Lazarus float out of his tomb or walk? John 11:43-44

Did all those dead people rise from their graves bodily and walk into the city. Matthew 27:52