Jeff Goldblum Challenge - Making Sense of Atheism

Author: PGA2.0

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ethang5
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@zedvictor4
You can keep pretending your mantra is truth.

Exactly what I was thinking about you...
Why? Unlike you, I do not claim to have a mantra.

...But don't be mad...Some people are reality challenged.
I tend to like reality challenged people.

Works both ways....that's the reality.
Errr. No. You can say it both ways, but it only works on people who are actually reality challenged. On the religion board, they are easy to spot. They are atheists who claim that religion is nothing but myth, but spend every waking hour on the religion board repeatedly  spouting the same silly anti-theist clichés ad-nauseum.

They are loads of fun. Never learning, never growing, never progressing.
EtrnlVw
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@Envisage

Again I have problems with the term "come to be".

It's pretty obvious there was a succession of events or processes that led to the current development of the universe, if there was a succession of events where the universe underwent a process of evolution there also was a point in time those processes began. In other words if we travel back in time there was a period where those processes had not yet began to take place. So technically (unless you wanted to be silly) we could say there was an "origin" (the point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived) of those events, and if there was a point or place where those processes began or arose we could speculate or argue what that origin could be or what initiated those processes.

One of the things that might confuse people is using the words origin of the "universe" or origins of "existence" because you could argue perhaps the universe was always in a state of existence and that existence itself has no origin. But observing the things WITHIN the universe it's apparent what we currently observe was not there in the past and so it can't be argued or denied that there was a point at which events began to produce what we currently observe WITHIN the universe.
So perhaps it would be more accurate (for both parties involved) to ask "what are the origins of the developments within the universe" or better yet "how or why do processes occur within the universe". Basically the Theist is attempting to account for the development of our world experiences and what we observe within the universe. I argue that processes can be associated with intelligence and that inanimate forces may not have the capacity to produce intelligent results through such processes, that it takes a mind (intelligence) to understand and formulate a process and from a Theist point of view it's unavoidable there was agency involved bringing about the current state of the universe.
When we look at what these processes have produced including intelligent creatures and sentient beings, the end results appear to have intention and the processes themselves appear intelligent. Arrangements, sequences, patterns, order, structure, orchestrations, processes, construction,  production, building ect ect  can be associated with agency….the very development of this universe appears to be associated with intellect through thought or the products of awareness. The processes themselves and the forces involved act as if they are aware.
That is the basis of our inquiry, the grounds for our premise. 

BrotherDThomas
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@ethang5


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Ethang5,

Regarding your ever so wanting post #28. l

Let's deduce your problem of RUNNING AWAY from your BIBLE STUPID POSTS down to its irreducible primary, okay?  You will be BIBLE STUPID again because that is part of your modus operandi, where understandably, you can't help yourself.   Therefore, be rest assured that Jesus and I will be there once again to embarrassingly correct you again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, to your blatant cluelessness of the JUDEO-Christian Bible!  DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE FORTHCOMING PREMISE? 

Remember when I told you to get a hold of Amazon and start ordering as many boxes of DEPENDS that you can fit within your abode? Huh? Then do it post haste if you haven't already done so, because you're going to need them because from now on if you step out of line biblically, you are going to have Hell to pay with your further embarrassment, understood? 

You are excused once again, until you make another grasping for straws quote.

.
EtrnlVw
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@BrotherDThomas
Let's deduce your problem of RUNNING AWAY from your BIBLE STUPID POSTS down to its irreducible primary, okay?  You will be BIBLE STUPID

Are you (Bible) STUPID, or just another obsessed (Bible) CRAZY person? 
PGA2.0
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@Envisage

Lemme try.

Origins of:

1) existence
The sentence of "origin of existence" makes no sense. Something either exists or it doesn't.
How things come to be then. 
Again I have problems with the term "come to be".

I imagine this question makes perfect sense in your head, either that or you are not articulating your thoughts very accurately. 

If your question is "How have all things that exist have come to exist as they are today?", that question makes sense, and I can try and answer it.


if your question is "How/why does anything exists at all?" that that question also makes sense, and again I can try and answer it.

But if your question "what is the origin of existence?" then that is incoherent to me, I do not understand what you are trying to ask, since it seems to me you ae treating "existence" as a type of  "thing" that can be talked about in the same way as a statue, or a tree.

If you want me to talk past you than I can try in futility to answer the question in its original form and fail as anyone else here has tried to.
I think semantically you are playing word games. You know very well this is centred on accounting for the how/why anything exists at all. Start with the universe, then consciousness/life, then morals.

How/why does the universe exist? Did it begin or is it eternal? If it began, does it have a cause? If it began, what is that cause? Do you have a reasonable explanation for how and why?
How/why does life exist? Does consciousness come from something devoid of it? Is that reasonable and a more plausible explanation?
How/why do morals exist? What are they? Is there such a thing as right or wrong, a fixed measure to compare good and bad against, or are such things just changing preferences?

The aim: I am asking you to assess whether it is more reasonable to believe we and everything exist because of a necessary mindful being or because of chance happenstance.  


2) The universe
Don't know. Can freely speculate, but don't know.
If you don't know then what is more reasonable to believe? What view is able to make sense of existence. What view is more reasonable in making sense of the universe?
Define "view".

I assume you mean "the view with a god, or the view without a god" and I am happy to answer that if that if what you are asking.
Yes.


3) life
Don't know. Can freely speculate, but don't know.
The what is more reasonable to believe. Explain what you believe and let's take a look at the reasonableness.

I already stated I believe I don't know. Do you want to rephrase your question more explicitly (I assume it requires similar phrasing to=== Q2) so I can answer it more to your satisfaction?

Note that I would normally be more charitable in discussions and not request rephrasing, but I assume we have very different terminology, culture and viewpoints, and it would all too easy for me to say something that doesn't answer the question as you envisioned it in your head.
That is fine. I hope we can work towards an understanding by asking the right questions. It may take some time to iron out our terminology. 

So you stated you don't know. Fine. I was asking you for an explanation. Which do you think is a more reasonable explanation for life, 1) it always existing (our transitory, temporary life and being coming from necessary eternal life and Being) or 2) somehow life came from something non-living. 


 4) logic
Humans developed it.
So, without human beings, there would be no such thing?
Note that when I speak of logic, I think of formal axiomatic logical systems, such as those used in mathematics, or rules of inference etc.

I see no reason why other species or aliens couldn't develop logic themselves.

I assume your question is better rephrased as:
"So without beings to reason, there would be no such thing as logic?"

To which I answer "Yes". Since logic doesn't exist as a thing outside of the mind.
Great! So you believe logic is a mindful process. Do you think a necessary eternal being is its origin or chance happenstance somehow caused us to think logically? Which is more reasonable to believe of those two options or do you have a third? 

I contend that we seem to "discover" laws and principles for the way things work (the operation of the universe and what is necessary for our logical thought processes). These "natural laws" we express in mathematical formulas or principles. We did not put those principles into operation, we discover them. The operated before we human beings existed, or would you say otherwise and based on what? I think it reasonable to believe these principles were still true, still operating before human beings or life forms existed in this universe.  We call these principles anthropic cosmological principles. 


We rely on rules of inference that even if we deny are self-evidentiary necessary in making sense of things. These self-evident inferences we call the laws of logic. Thus, they too are outside our individual mindful processes. They do not require that we believe in them but exist independently of us and are necessary for us to make sense of things.


PGA2.0
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@Envisage


Now, logic is not dependent upon you but it is dependent upon thinking being. Without God (i.e., materialism or empiricism) how does something that is non-living, non-conscious, develop into something that is and is this more reasonable to believe than logic comes from an eternal necessary Being? 
You do realise that logic systems with completely different axioms to those we commonly use in math etc. can and have been developed that have zero application or relevance to reality as we experience it right? You can even have entire mathematical systems that are inconsistent. The systems and axioms are wholly dependent on thinking beings.
I am not aware of what you are speaking about. The concept of twoness is not dependent alone on your mind believing it. It is independent of your thought process or mine yet without such concepts of twoness our understanding of numbers would be meaningless. Furthermore, I would argue the concept of twoness is not a physical thing, thus it is not empirical. Would you agree or disagree?

Now, if it is not a physical thing, how does it arise from a strictly material universe? How does what is, physical matter, then turn into something intangible and abstract?

5) truth
The sentence of "The origin of truth" makes no sense. either something is true or it is not.
Okay. Is truth mind-dependent? Does truth depend on being or is there such a thing as truth without "being" to perceive it? If truth has its origins from beings you still need to jump the hurdle and develop how conscious beings come from physical matter devoid of consciousness. If truth is not an abstract mindful process then it cannot be known or explained. 

And when I speak of truth, I speak of the truth of origins. How do you know your view of origins is what corresponds to reality unless a necessary mindful Being has revealed origins? 
This falls into the same category of thing as Q4. So redress these arguments to that.

Truth falls under epistemology, and a lot of that will depend on your view of logic systems, which define within themselves "true" and "false". To state there is "truth" outside of imaged systems such as logic makes zero sense to me, thus #4 should be addressed first.
So, truth is mind-dependent but it is not dependent on your mind or my mind for its existence. You might say it is another self-evident principle which again I argue is reasonable to believe a necessary mind is behind our perceptions of truth. Denying the truth does not make something less true if it is in fact true at all. The principle is that which is true cannot at the same time and manner be false. A thing is what it is. It cannot be both what it is and not what it is.

The question now is, do you discover a truth that exists outside yourself or do you just make it up and because you believe it then it is true? If you choose the former then truth seems to exist regardless of whether you do or I do but it is again a mindful thing. 

Is it reasonable to believe a necessary mind is its source? Or is chance happenstance what leads to things being true? I again think the reasonable answer is the former. If we think the thoughts or read the written revelation of such a necessary mind we can discover and know the truth. 

6) morality
Nihilism works fine as  a meta ethical theory. Describing human behaviours and what human behaviours people would generally most prefer I don't categorise as morality. If you do though then I encourage you to read "Sapiens: A brief history or humankind" for some good speculation.
Develop that nihilistic thought. What do you mean? 
There is no such thing as inherent right or wrong on any level. They are all imagined orders/realities.
So something can be right and wrong at the same time? Thus, as an example, it is not inherently wrong to kill innocent human beings for pleasure.

If you believe it is right then it is right for you? If you believe it is wrong then it is wrong for you. Again you state absolutes (no such thing) that if true is self-refuting, thus, illogical to believe. 


Neither do I classify behaviour as morality for the following reasons: How does an 'ought' come from an 'is.' A behaviour is. It is a description of something taking place. A preference is a "like," a personal taste. I like ice-cream. Does that mean you SHOULD like ice-cream too? 

"Ought" is defined within whatever imagined order you subscribe to. I do not subscribe to any, so asking me how "ought" comes from an "is" makes no sense, since "ought" makes no sense outside of an imagined order "such as a religious order, but certainly not exclusive to a religious order".
Imagined order subscribed to? Ought makes no sense to you - it is nonsense to you. You imagine one thing, I another, and nothing is what should or must be, just a preference? I cut in line in front of you because I believe I am privileged!!! Nothing wrong with that. You condone the taking an innocent human life (abortion) because you do not think there are self-evident principles involved like equality and justice. They are just preferences that you either like or dislike

So, in other words, you make right and wrong a preference since there is no ought. You don't think it ought to be followed. Do whatever. 

What you want me to do is just recognize right and wrong as a description, a behaviour that is liked or disliked, not a must, ought,  should --> a prescription. Why should I do what you describe or believe if I do not want to do it? No reason. Since you have no ultimate or fixed standard that you can point to I'll do as I please and what I want.  
I believe we are indeed in trouble if we adopt your relativism. It begs the question of why I must like what you like for that is all you offer. Or you congregate with other like-minded people and force your likes on others since there is no prescription of what is the case. It is just the imagined order of subscription, to your mind. IOW's, your relative subjective tastes or preferences are not what I ought to do because you believe them. There is nothing compelling me to accept your likes. IOW's, you have no absolute or fixed standard of what right means. IOW's, you have no best that you compare right and wrong against. You just make it up. You have no expectation of me following what you believe until it gets personal and I do something you do not like. Then is when it appears that there is an ought. I ought not to hurt your family members for no reason. I ought not to make fun of you because of your skin colour or height or because you do not live as well off as I do financially. The problem with your relativism is that you can think it but it is not practically lived. Some things are definitely wrong. If you don't think so, step this way. You are the next in line for someone's evil purposes. How do you recognize right and wrong from the standpoint of moral relativism? 

You do not "subscribe to an imagined order. Anything goes. 

zedvictor4
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@ethang5
Ha Ha.

You were just describing yourself....

Though the content may be different.... the condition is exactly the same.

Good one.

We're obviously peas in a pod you and I....Both loads of fun.
BrotherDThomas
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EtrnlVw,

YOUR SORROWFUL AND PATHETIC POST #34: "Are you (Bible) STUPID, or just another obsessed (Bible) CRAZY person? "

WAIT, you have me on block, remember?!  Since you had to tattletale on me for making your existence within this forum uncomfortable because of your outright biblical idiocy of the scriptures, I am to leave you alone, REMEMBER?  Therefore why are you poking a stick to wake up the lion in which I represent relative to your weakness? Huh?  

I suggest that you look down the front of our pants and see if you still have balls, if you do, then remove me from being blocked and let's discuss how equally BIBLE STUPID you are in relation to ethong5, get it?  Now, if you remain silent to this post, it will be assumed that when looking down your pants, you couldn't find your balls, therefore you have to be put back upon the sidelines where you belong, get it?  Sure you do.

NEXT?

ethang5
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@zedvictor4
It's OK Zed, you're not the only one who wants to think he's "like" me.

You said you had a mantra, I didn't. You wish to pretend I do too because in your mind, that would make us similar. I'm used to the admiration.

But unlike the genius Dee Dee, at least you know you're a load of fun. Landover might be the perfect place for you. Check out their website.
ethang5
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@BrotherDThomas
WAIT, you have me on block, remember?! 
Most people do Dee Dee. You post repetitive shtick remember? Everyone knows your posts are devoid of real content.

But Ethan likes you. Ethan won't block you. As long as you're willing to parade your... ahem... special talents... Ethan will be here for you.

I referred Zed to your Landover Church. Perhaps now he too will start posting repetitive shtick and use all caps like an obsessed internet loon. Wouldn't that be fun?

Barney
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@zedvictor4
***
Regarding #37, I am not noticing any obvious CoC violations.  We can dislike a post, without it breaking the rules. 

-Ragnar, DM
***
zedvictor4
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@Barney
Just tit for tat, friendly jibes... Mr Ethan gives as good as he gets.
Barney
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@zedvictor4
Just tit for tat, friendly jibes...
That represents a reason I am glad we de-emphasized insults in the new CoC.
PGA2.0
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@Envisage
Lemme try.

Origins of:

1) existence
The sentence of "origin of existence" makes no sense. Something either exists or it doesn't.
How things come to be then. 
Again I have problems with the term "come to be".
I get it. I understand what you are saying. Yet things come to be all the time. We witness a new life, a new existence coming to be. I'm asking you how did existence come to be? There are a cause and effect. What caused the universe?

Time began if there was a beginning. If not it is meaningless to speak of time in eternity. In this physical universe, if that is all there is, materialism/empiricism, there can't be a time before the beginning, if you believe the universe began and if you are looking to explain everything physically. So what you seem to be preaching is self-creation - something coming from nothing or an eternal universe or multiverse.  Explain your origins. Is the universe eternal or did it begin?

I imagine this question makes perfect sense in your head, either that or you are not articulating your thoughts very accurately. 
Yes, it does. We witness the beginning of things all the time. Is there a point we can trace that back to or is the universe eternal? I'm asking for your explanation for the origin of life and the universe, and explanation for their existence.


If your question is "How have all things that exist have come to exist as they are today?", that question makes sense, and I can try and answer it.
Is that not what I said? How did origins come to be? How did the universe come to be? How did existence of life come to be?

If you believe that empiricism or materialism is all there is (i.e., no eternal Creator) - things - then how did they come to be if they had a beginning?


if your question is "How/why does anything exists at all?" that that question also makes sense, and again I can try and answer it.
Yes, if you think there is a reason then how and why and you seem to suggest you have an answer? I'm interested in the plausibility of it. Is that not what I have been asking all along, for you to make sense or give the most reasonable explanation if you think God is not it. 

But if your question "what is the origin of existence?" then that is incoherent to me, I do not understand what you are trying to ask, since it seems to me you ae treating "existence" as a type of  "thing" that can be talked about in the same way as a statue, or a tree.
If your explanation is empirical then existence has to be explained in terms of the physical. 

If you want me to talk past you than I can try in futility to answer the question in its original form and fail as anyone else here has tried to.
It is a two-way street. That is why we question what others mean. You are just as guilty of stringing me along and hiding in semantics.


2) The universe
Don't know. Can freely speculate, but don't know.
If you don't know then what is more reasonable to believe? What view is able to make sense of existence. What view is more reasonable in making sense of the universe?
Define "view".

I assume you mean "the view with a god, or the view without a god" and I am happy to answer that if that if what you are asking.
Worldview, the way you look at life and existence of it and the universe and what you build upon to explain such things. 

3) life
Don't know. Can freely speculate, but don't know.
The what is more reasonable to believe. Explain what you believe and let's take a look at the reasonableness.

I already stated I believe I don't know. Do you want to rephrase your question more explicitly (I assume it requires similar phrasing to=== Q2) so I can answer it more to your satisfaction?
And I have explained that if you don't know then how do you know your explanation is more reasonable than any other? Can you say that empiricism from chance happenstance is more reasonable than creation? When you deny God what do you have left??? You no longer have intentionality. You no longer have an ultimate purpose. You no longer have reason coming from a reasoning and necessary being. 

Note that I would normally be more charitable in discussions and not request rephrasing, but I assume we have very different terminology, culture and viewpoints, and it would all too easy for me to say something that doesn't answer the question as you envisioned it in your head.
But of course!


 4) logic
Humans developed it.
So, without human beings, there would be no such thing?
Note that when I speak of logic, I think of formal axiomatic logical systems, such as those used in mathematics, or rules of inference etc.
Then how do you explain, without a Creator that is, that we can explain how the universe works via mathematical and logical principles that are not physical in themselves (grasp hold of twoness, show me the laws of logic). We discover these principles, we don't invent them. They have their existence before you existed or I existed. Thus, it is much more reasonable to believe a necessary, eternal/outside of time, Being is responsible for them rather than chance happenstance. 

I see no reason why other species or aliens couldn't develop logic themselves.
That just takes the step back further. How did these aliens or other beings get to be? Are they eternal? Are you saying they are our creators? Are they the creators of the universe? Do they then exist outside of time? What is the reasonableness of your evidence? Do you have any? Is it more reasonable than the biblical God? I say no. Give me your proof/evidence if you believe this. If you have none then my evidence is more reasonable. 

I assume your question is better rephrased as:
"So without beings to reason, there would be no such thing as logic?"

To which I answer "Yes". Since logic doesn't exist as a thing outside of the mind.
How does reasoning begin from something that was devoid of it? We agree it needs a conscious, mindful being. 


Now, logic is not dependent upon you but it is dependent upon thinking being. Without God (i.e., materialism or empiricism) how does something that is non-living, non-conscious, develop into something that is and is this more reasonable to believe than logic comes from an eternal necessary Being? 
You do realise that logic systems with completely different axioms to those we commonly use in math etc. can and have been developed that have zero application or relevance to reality as we experience it right? You can even have entire mathematical systems that are inconsistent. The systems and axioms are wholly dependent on thinking beings.
Completely different? How would you differentiate without using the laws of logic - the laws of identity, non-contradiction, or middle exclusion? Both require mindful beings to be known. Why do we find principles that explain our universe that we can express by mathematical formulas? These principles seem to be before we (humanity) came to be or do you disagree? How reasonable is that last statement, in your opinion? 

5) truth
The sentence of "The origin of truth" makes no sense. either something is true or it is not.
Okay. Is truth mind-dependent? Does truth depend on being or is there such a thing as truth without "being" to perceive it? If truth has its origins from beings you still need to jump the hurdle and develop how conscious beings come from physical matter devoid of consciousness. If truth is not an abstract mindful process then it cannot be known or explained. 

And when I speak of truth, I speak of the truth of origins. How do you know your view of origins is what corresponds to reality unless a necessary mindful Being has revealed origins? 
This falls into the same category of thing as Q4. So redress these arguments to that.
Addressed. The laws of logic would have to be prior to those of mathematics for us human beings to do and understand mathematics. 

Truth falls under epistemology, and a lot of that will depend on your view of logic systems, which define within themselves "true" and "false". To state there is "truth" outside of imaged systems such as logic makes zero sense to me, thus #4 should be addressed first.
Number 4 answered. You can't do mathematics without first having these basic principles of logic. 

Beginnings, origins, the existence of first life is something neither of us was there to experience. The truth of such things must be explained in one of a few ways. I argue they come down to two explanations - we are here because of a Creator or we are here by blind, indifferent chance happenstance. Again, which is more reasonable to believe for you? Once you identify we can examine how reasonable the one you choose is. 


6) morality
Nihilism works fine as  a meta ethical theory. Describing human behaviours and what human behaviours people would generally most prefer I don't categorise as morality. If you do though then I encourage you to read "Sapiens: A brief history or humankind" for some good speculation.
Develop that nihilistic thought. What do you mean? 
There is no such thing as inherent right or wrong on any level. They are all imagined orders/realities.
So, you do not believe in self-evident truths, like the laws of logic or for there to be equality for justice? Right and wrong are qualitative values. What is your starting point for qualitative values? Is it the human mind? Which human mind(s) since we are relative beings? If you do not have a "best" or ultimate unchanging ideal to compare right and wrong to then how can you ever arrive at better? Better in relation to what? Do you just arbitrarily choose something you like and call it right? 


Neither do I classify behaviour as morality for the following reasons: How does an 'ought' come from an 'is.' A behaviour is. It is a description of something taking place. A preference is a "like," a personal taste. I like ice-cream. Does that mean you SHOULD like ice-cream too? 

"Ought" is defined within whatever imagined order you subscribe to. I do not subscribe to any, so asking me how "ought" comes from an "is" makes no sense, since "ought" makes no sense outside of an imagined order "such as a religious order, but certainly not exclusive to a religious order".
I'll have to work around that statement to find out what you mean. Imagined order? That would not really be the case. Does that mean there is a case in which it would be? 

The Nazis subscribed to the imagined order that it was right to kill Jews. They don't like the Jews so they prefer to kill them. Kim Jong-Un subscribes to the imagined order that what he prefers is the right. Because he believes it, it IS what he likes, you ought to also. If not, off with your head! It is not his personal like that you like the opposite of what he likes. Abortion advocates subscribe to the imagined order that it is right to kill innocent human beings. They like to choose to kill or not to kill innocent human beings so you should too.

The problem with moral relativists is they cannot recognize right. Everything is shifting. They have no fixed measure. 

What do these examples have in common? I would say they are all preferences, a personal taste, what IS, what someone likes. How does that make them right? (right meaning what everyone should do, what the ought to do)

What do the three examples share in common? They turn description (something that is observable, a physical behaviour) into a prescription (an intangible) thus violating the is/ought fallacy. How do you cross that bridge? 

ethang5
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@PGA2.0
@Envisage
I am greatly enjoying the exchanges between PGA and Envisage. If only the religion board could have more of such mature and civil discussions! Thanks guys, I look forward to more.
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@ethang5
If everyone remains mature and civil then maturity and civility will abound.


ethang5
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@zedvictor4
I agree.
zedvictor4
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@ethang5


Are you up late or up early?