Thanks to EtrV for accepting my open offer.
SE Chat Room #2
Posts
Total:
42
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@EtrnlVw
Thanks again for participating. Let's get started. First question:
How do you describe your God belief? To be clear, I am not yet asking you to justify your God belief. I am merely asking you to describe it.
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@Jeff_Goldblum
My God belief is pretty simplistic to begin with, it basically starts with God as the foundation of all that exists or the "backdrop" behind all of creation as everything originates from that Reality. I like to use the term Creator it seems to relay the point pretty accurately, unlike most depictions of God I begin with a Reality (God) with no embodiment. As God is known as being omnipresent I will depict God as more like an ocean of awareness (which everything exists within), consciousness with no specific boundaries. It would basically be akin to energy, actually in my belief it is the conscious activity of the Creator which generates energy, in other words they co-exist.
So obviously my God belief is that it begins with awareness, that being the awareness of "God" and everything from there follows whether it be creation, the universe, souls ect ect.
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@EtrnlVw
Thanks for your prompt reply.
I want to make sure I'm understanding your claim before we proceed further, so I'm going to try to put what you've said into my own words. If I'm getting something wrong, please correct me. Here's what I think you're saying:
You believe God exists, with God defined as an omnipresent awareness (i.e. consciousness) from which all reality flows.
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@Jeff_Goldblum
You believe God exists, with God defined as an omnipresent awareness (i.e. consciousness) from which all reality flows.
Correct
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@EtrnlVw
Great, thank you.
So, on a scale of 0-100 (with 0 meaning "not at all" and 100 meaning "without a doubt") how confident are you that this belief is true?
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@Jeff_Goldblum
So, on a scale of 0-100 (with 0 meaning "not at all" and 100 meaning "without a doubt") how confident are you that this belief is true?
To leave room for whatever the case may be I'll say 90%. I'm pretty confident about it. I don't want to come across as close-minded so I'll leave the wiggle room. I've put a lot of thought and references in this. The ten percent wouldn't be because I doubt myself but because there could be slight variations.
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@EtrnlVw
Very reasonable to leave wiggle room, if you don't mind my saying.
So, next question:
What is your main reason for holding such high confidence in this belief? Note that I encourage you to keep your answer concise. This is an interview and not a debate, so you do not need to go 'all-out' in supporting all your contentions. Ideally, just stick to summarizing the main reason(s) for your belief.
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@Jeff_Goldblum
What is your main reason for holding such high confidence in this belief? Note that I encourage you to keep your answer concise. This is an interview and not a debate, so you do not need to go 'all-out' in supporting all your contentions. Ideally, just stick to summarizing the main reason(s) for your belief.
My beliefs in general (if you wish to label them beliefs) are combination of observation, experience, cross referencing and commonsense.
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@EtrnlVw
Would you mind providing a salient example in which observation/experience made an important contribution to your high confidence?
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@Jeff_Goldblum
Would you mind providing a salient example in which observation/experience made an important contribution to your high confidence?
Sure, since it is my own observations and experience that propel my surety and interest in spirituality I can take those observations and cross reference with a wide range of sources. For example I have encountered spiritual beings myself and what people may refer to as ghosts or spirit bodies. Since I have seen them with my own eyes I can cross examine other religious or spiritual experiences as references. A legitimate way to confirm that souls exist and exist independent of the physical body which has been a religious proposition for ages for example.... would be to confirm that through NDE experiences, OBE's and soul travel/conscious projection.
The interesting thing about the nature of consciousness and the soul existing independent of the physical body is that people can experience things outside the physical sense perception and there's more evidence for spiritual experiences than any other topic period.
So basically when you have your own direct experience and then can cross reference that with many other encounters or witnesses one can have at least a good level of confidence in what occurred. I think cross referencing is one of the more convincing methods to approach spirituality with and whether or not there is anything worth considering. And one thing to be aware of is to correlate with sources that identify with that very same nature.
So with that being said I can piece together a pretty viable platform to build from, and deduce from there what could be possible.
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@Jeff_Goldblum
Just to add BTW for your own curiosity. My platform here is universal, I know we haven't got that far yet but this idea isn't necessarily "mine is right and everyone else's is wrong" type of argument. Other people's experiences and ideas could fit into this proposition because it is all generated from the same Reality. Essentially the very idea or concept of God or gods originate from this Source. So basically there exists a hierarchy of many levels of creation that spring forth from a singular incorporeal foundation. So to back up a hair, when you asked what is my "God belief" I'm starting at the Platform out of which all spiritual beings come from including Gods, rulers, demigods ect ect. And I'm willing to articulate that just wanted to clarify I'm not arguing for any particular God per say. But, there is a singular Source and that is where I'm starting this.
So while I am labeling this universal Platform "God" I'm not talking about embodied Entities or Beings that people have experienced within creation.
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@EtrnlVw
Thank you for your continued participation. I appreciate your detailed responses.
I think I'd like to focus on your observation of spirits as support for your belief. As you put it:
I have encountered spiritual beings myself and what people may refer to as ghosts or spirit bodies.
Two questions:
1) Is it possible for a person to be mistakenly convinced that they have observed a spirit?
2) Assuming you answer "yes" to Q1, what makes you confident that you are not mistaken about having observed a spirit that lends support to your belief?
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@Jeff_Goldblum
1) Is it possible for a person to be mistakenly convinced that they have observed a spirit?
Mistakenly convinced? lol, that's like me asking you if you were mistakenly convinced someone stomped on your foot after you witnessed someone stomp on your foot. An observation is an observation, sure there maybe some factors involved when considering other people's testimonies but when someone has witnessed something and to not take it at face value is somewhat strange TBH. With the amount of spiritual observations involved one has to consider there is relevant evidence, if you were to ever see a spiritual being there's no "mistaken" it. They exist, people see them all the time and did you know about one out of three people have either seen a spirit or had a spiritual encounter? that's an impressive percentage to consider and not just something to sweep under the rug.
One thing I find curious is when people have spiritual encounters why is it always assumed everything but the person encountered an actual event and or being?
Having said that anything is possible I guess but why ignore the obvious? why would I discount my very own observations?
2) Assuming you answer "yes" to Q1, what makes you confident that you are not mistaken about having observed a spirit that lends support to your belief?
I'm not mistaken, I've had several spiritual experiences.....and this happens worldwide which is why I said cross referencing is a powerful tool to understand the spiritual side of our observations. Now, I could blow off my experiences as something other than what they were but how does that deal with the fact that these type of observations have been going on since humans have existed? wouldn't we apply Occam's Razor rather than assuming all these things are anything but what they claim?
There is no reason for me NOT to be confident knowing what I experienced and having huge data base of evidence I can support that experience with, that would be quite silly no?
Sorry about all the questions, my point behind that is so you could consider that it is not very intellectually honest to discount something that is pretty obvious because it doesn't fit in with a materialistic worldview. We should consider all propositions if they have good reason and evidence to back them. Souls either exist or they don't, we would know they do by the amount of eye witness accounts, sources and observations including NDE's or the lack thereof that's how we would judge whether or not something exists....by the actual evidence which in this case would include my own.
Keeping in mind you asked for only one example, so I wouldn't entirely focus on this as a means to get where you want to go although it is relevant. My point here is to show there is reason to consider that the soul exists independent of the physical body, and that falls into the category of Theism.
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@EtrnlVw
He's cherry-picking your long replies to solely focus on experiences that he can mock and discredit you with.
Well hopefully he is more well rounded in his approach, one has to consider witnesses though as a means to understand the spiritual nature of our experiences so I don't mind as long as it doesn't become a fixation so we might as well get it out of the way lol. There's lots of factors to consider beyond that not just this one and I'll get to them all if he wants to. If he mocks people's observations that would be foolish at least in this category, especially with the numbers that are involved and the type of nature we are dealing with.
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@EtrnlVw
He did the same thing with me. He's moving towards it with fauxlaw and athias. He feigns politeness and care while really giving zero shit about your reasoning. His motive is to discredit all believers as mentally ill hallucinating, paranoid schizoid types and he will keep pushing the questions solely to the experiences no matter how much effort you put into your explanation.
He did the same thing with me. He's moving towards it with fauxlaw and athias. He feigns politeness and care while really giving zero shit about your reasoning. His motive is to discredit all believers as mentally ill hallucinating, paranoid schizoid types and he will keep pushing the questions solely to the experiences no matter how much effort you put into your explanation.
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@Jeff_Goldblum
observed a spirit that lends support to your belief?
To put it more simplistic, if I have a proposition or have been presented one I need to be able to support that idea and there are several ways of doing that. One way would be to see if there's anything I have personally witnessed or observed that lends weight to that proposition. That would be a no-brainer and in this case there would be a match, so to add another layer of confirmation I could use other people's observations or witnesses and cross reference those experiences. Now you have first hand experience supported even further by a large data base of observations.
We'll see. I'm willing to let him have his way, I got nothing to run from. BTW you should unblock me, not sure why you did.
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@EtrnlVw
Neither do I, I genuinely don't remember blocking you. Sorry.
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@EtrnlVw
I assure you it is not my intent to selectively quote and/or mock you. I'm sorry RM has become convinced otherwise. If at any time you feel disrespected, you are of course welcome to simply stop participating. I will not harass you about.
Assuming you'd like to continue, I'd like to dig a little deeper into this idea of a) first-hand supernatural experience and b) cross-referencing with others' experiences.
Would you mind providing a specific example of a) and b)?
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@Jeff_Goldblum
Assuming you'd like to continue, I'd like to dig a little deeper into this idea of a) first-hand supernatural experience and b) cross-referencing with others' experiences.Would you mind providing a specific example of a) and b)?
Well I gave you an example, is there something you are unsure of? I could give you more specific examples but as of now I'm not sure if it will be relevant to the point I'm making.
A) would be something I've had my own experience with. This would pertain to application, observations and encounters of my own.
B) would be examining other claims or testimonies of the same nature, to cross reference those experiences with my own. This would include religious sources, non-religious sources, studies/programs that handle these types of experiences. Teachers that are capable of articulating such phenomenon is also a good way to get insights.
I study religion as a whole, so I evaluate a ton of material and literature on the subject.
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@Jeff_Goldblum
The main point I'm trying to convey is not that I've had spiritual experiences per say (even though it's relevant) but that there is an available body of facts and information indicating whether the belief or proposition is true or valid. There is correlating evidence that supports the concepts we hopefully will get into. If we want to have a meaningful conversation about the proposition that the soul exists independent of the physical body for example we would want to justify it by considering the type of evidence that correlates with that claim. So spiritual experiences, religious sources, NDE's, OBE's, paranormal activity and even ghost sightings would fall into that category. It may sound funny but when you examine the amount of evidence that mounts up it is astounding. When you examine it as a whole it is overwhelming to say the least.
So at the very least we could say this particular proposition isn't just a claim, we have something to build off of. Ideally you would at least acknowledge it and then we move forward exploring other aspects involving the same proposition. I'm just trying to give you a starting point.
Assuming I'm not batshit crazy you should give me the benefit of the doubt I know what I observe, what I observe isn't hazy or mistaken it is very clear and unmistakable. It just so happens to line up with a huge amount of the same observations of many others.
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@Jeff_Goldblum
I assure you it is not my intent to selectively quote and/or mock you.
So far I have not had that impression yet.
If at any time you feel disrespected, you are of course welcome to simply stop participating. I will not harass you about.
Cool, actually I really like this approach, I hope you take complete advantage of it. You should feel free to explore any and every idea which is what I was hoping you will do, anything you ask I will give you what I believe to be the most accurate answer worth considering. Be creative!
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@EtrnlVw
At this stage, I understand that you think there is a massive body of evidence supporting your belief. I understand this evidence is based on observation. But I don't yet understand what the evidence is exactly. Has someone seen a ghost? Do things move without any apparent physical cause? Basically, examples would help me to better understanding what this evidence is that has you so convinced.
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@EtrnlVw
So spiritual experiences, religious sources, NDE's, OBE's, paranormal activity and even ghost sightings
I think it would be helpful for me if we could examine this a bit more. My understanding is that this body of evidence is the main support for your high confidence. So, a couple questions:
- Could you explain what NDEs and OBEs are?
- Can you provide a specific example in which you experienced one of these things? Or, if you prefer, could you share an instance of one of these things occurring to someone else?
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@Jeff_Goldblum
At this stage, I understand that you think there is a massive body of evidence supporting your belief. I understand this evidence is based on observation. But I don't yet understand what the evidence is exactly. Has someone seen a ghost? Do things move without any apparent physical cause? Basically, examples would help me to better understanding what this evidence is that has you so convinced.
I'm using the term observation (testimony) and evidence synonymous, as they establish the same thing.
Testimony-
"evidence or proof provided by the existence or appearance of something"
"firsthand authentication of a fact : evidence"
Evidence-
"something that furnishes proof : testimony"
"one who bears witness"
"A thing or set of things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment"
" ground for belief or disbelief; data on which to base proof or to establish truth or falsehood"
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid"
Observation-
"the action or process of observing something or someone carefully or in order to gain information"
"a record or description so obtained"
"the ability to notice things, especially significant details"
"a remark, statement, or comment based on something one has seen, heard, or noticed"
"an act or instance of noticing or perceiving"
"an act or instance of viewing or noting a fact or occurrence for some scientific or other special purpose"
Religion for example is based on observations usually by an original individual source that has been either agreed upon or collectively confirmed. Hinduism for example, is based on their perceived observations of the nature of consciousness and has been successively studied generation after generation through their methods and practices. Buddhist cosmology for example is based around their observations of the cosmos transcendent of the physical realm and is successively examined for generations under their methods of study. Eckankar for example is based upon their observations of the inner soul and soul travel and how that relates to both God and the soul, and they base this under their observational method of study. Native American spirituality is based upon their observations of the spirit worlds which include their observations and communications of ancestral spirits and the societies that extend beyond the physical planes.
Christianity for example is based around the observations of Jesus which include the Kingdom of Heaven and the Father, his knowledge of that Kingdom and all who dwell there and inherit it. Jesus' observation of spiritual principles which form a systematic matrix of laws one can interface with and observe.
NDE's for example are individuals non-religious first hand observations of the soul leaving the physical body which supports the idea that the soul exists independent of the physical body, likewise OBE's and soul projection. Paranormal activity and ghost sighting are average people's encounters with spiritual entities which also support the proposition that souls exist beyond the physical plane. I could go on but perhaps you see where I'm going....this all falls into the category of testimonial evidence which plays a significant role in considering whether or not there are just claims of ideas or if there is claims supported by evidence. Since we are dealing with basically non-physical based phenomenon we would have to consider observations that transcend the physical sense perception and there are ways to achieve this.
Now just to back up a hair, none of the above examples are my reason for believing in the Creator, but in such a discussion with a non-believer I'm presenting this as a means to communicate that spirituality and Theistic propositions are based on observation not thoughts or people's personal opinions.
People have observations and from that there exists a trail of information and facts for people to research and look into. Ghost sightings can come across as a comical source or consideration but if you want to be certain that these types of beings DON'T exist you have to be mature about it and realize that even though it may sound silly the evidence, or amount of encounters is quite astounding. This isn't just limited to people who have seen spiritual beings, this spreads into all the various sources I mentioned which presents a huge data base of testimonials both religious and non-religious. I think it is important that I highlight the fact there are non-religious observations because it paints an unbiased picture. The thing is most average non-religious people don't really understand what they are observing, they don't know what spiritual beings are or what that entails they just know they witnessed something.
Besides this there are other ways of determining logically if a Creator exists, not sure if you read through the "A Challenge to Theists, can you be honest" thread but I presented what I thought was a decent premise. Of course, my opponent wasn't impressed lol but that is besides the point. The part that makes such a thing difficult in the first place to "prove" is that we are dealing with a transcendent Reality and trying to show it exists by means of physical explanations or methods.
To answer your question though, the evidence IS the observations so you have to understand how evidence is defined and what it entails. My experience has been people don't really know how evidence is defined and what is included as evidence. What usually happens is I reveal the definitions and then the argument switches to whether these types of things are strong or weak evidence lol. Nevertheless as you add up the amount of observations it becomes unavoidable and apparent that there is supporting evidence for Theistic propositions, mainly that souls exist or that consciousness survives a physical death. From there we can begin to put things together from more than just an idea.
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@Jeff_Goldblum
- Could you explain what NDEs and OBEs are?
They are an example of the literal soul leaving the physical body. Under normal operations the individual perceives everything through the confines of their body....experiences within the body are perceived through the perceptions conducted by the brain. During NDE's (soul released from the physical body) the observers experience leaving the body and are able to effectively communicate what they observe up to hours after brain death. Their experience takes place outside the confines of the brain and body (away from). This supports the Theistic proposition that the soul exists independent of the material body.
Can you provide a specific example in which you experienced one of these things? Or, if you prefer, could you share an instance of one of these things occurring to someone else?
I can send you a link where there are countless testimonies recorded on a program that shares these experiences along with correlating medical facts. With such a large data base it's probably best you do your own research. If you've never heard of Testimonies that are affiliated with NDE's you should probably familiarize yourself with it.
The experiences I have had personally prove to me that souls exist independent of the physical body. I cross references those observations with what I have listed in this thread.
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@EtrnlVw
I still have quite a few questions, but before I consider asking any more, maybe you should send me that link. That way, I can try answering my questions first and reserve your time for the ones that I cannot answer on my own.