um, what?
Oh btw it's a class 6 felony to wear a mask in Virginia if you are over 16, with very few specific exceptions, nice that gov' blackface is allowing the citizens to wear them for now.
WHO stands by recommendation to not wear masks
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
They're saying that they aren't certain that having the public wear masks will actually help. Having seen some people wearing masks and how they use them, i'm not sure they're wrong. I've watched several people lift up their mask to rub their face (because it is hot under the mask) then put it back. So if regular people don't use the masks correctly, they don't provide much benefit, they could even theoretically make it worse.
But primarily they are saying that giving these masks to regular people when there is a critical shortage for front line workers only endangers the front line workers potentially making the crisis worse. They are saying that the primary focus for PPE (personal protective equipment) needs to be front line workers.
I am not necessarily arguing that they are correct. but you seem to be confused by what they are saying.
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@HistoryBuff
I'm not confused actually even though the messages from different organizations and "authorities" seem to contradict each other.
have you search something like "effectiveness of masks" ?
incase you didn't know you have to have a "fit test" for the n95 for it to actually work properly.
Dr. Harp said there is no definitive evidence that cloth masks decrease transmission of the coronavirus.
Some types of cloth work better than others. Multiple layers and tighter weaves are better. “Theoretically, then, any face covering will reduce the number of virus particles that reach the open air,” noted Dr. Harp.
Commercial surgical masks marketed for212 medical use had mean particle removal efficiencies from 50-75% when worn as designed but up to 90%213 when snugged to the face under a nylon layer. Cloth masks tested had widely varying mean particle214 removal efficiencies (<30% to near 90%), with some cloth masks achieving similar filtration efficiencies as215 commercial surgical masks. However, in general, surgical-style cloth masks had poor fit (i.e., performance216 was greatly enhanced with the nylon overlayer) compared to cone-shaped masks, and masks with good217 material filtration performance tended to have a filter layer (e.g., meltblown BFE85 filter layer) in addition218 to two layers of cotton or non-woven fabric.
basically if you can breathe comfortably, it's not working for you.
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@Greyparrot
and she lectures people on guns too lol you'd think her husband or whomever wouldn't have let her make a fool of herself like that, but I guess he's just a dumb or dumber than she is.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
basically if you can breathe comfortably, it's not working for you.
ok, then maybe i understood your opening statement. the "um, what?" made it sound like you either didn't understand or you thought this was a crazy statement. However everything you just described basically backs up the statement they made. So i fail to see what your point was in this thread.
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@HistoryBuff
as I said "the messages from different organizations and "authorities" seem to contradict each other."
you see governor blackface has made it a crime NOT to wear a mask, however https://youtu.be/NUHsEmlIoE4 that was from March 8th, then https://edition.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/05/27/dr-fauci-intv-coronavirus-wear-mask-sot-nr-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/ and when you add in the WHO recommendation you don't find it contradictory?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
That person was placed in a retirement home because he had COVID. Crazy policies coming from Whitmer. If you are young and have COVID, go hang around dying people....
What madness.
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@Greyparrot
the power abuse, control and incompetence by elected officials isn't is obvious as when cops do it and often far more deadly but they keep voting them into office, go figure.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
as I said "the messages from different organizations and "authorities" seem to contradict each other."
so? there is insufficient information to determine what the objectively "best" policy is. That leads to different people coming to different conclusions. That is totally normal.
you see governor blackface has made it a crime NOT to wear a mask, however https://youtu.be/NUHsEmlIoE4 that was from March 8th,
again, so? There is insufficient information to determine what the objectively "best" policy is. So governments are doing the best they can to keep their people safe based on what information they have.
then https://edition.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/05/27/dr-fauci-intv-coronavirus-wear-mask-sot-nr-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/ and when you add in the WHO recommendation you don't find it contradictory?
it's pretty much the same answer. there is no conclusive "right" answer. If there were an infinite number of masks available and everyone knew how to use them correctly (and actually did that) then i'm sure it would be an easy recommendation that everyone should use them. But there is a critical shortage of masks, so encouraging private citizens to buy them up when medical professionals (who are at much higher risk) need them desperately. And people aren't using them correctly, which massively undercuts their usefulness and might theoretically increase people's risk.
Life is complicated. There isn't a single, cut and dry, best answer that everyone should do. You are trying to paint that as some sort of failure or problem, but this is just the nature of the real world we live in.
IMO they're lying for the same reason the CDC lied earlier this year: to prevent runs on PPE by the civilian population. We have a good supply in the US now, but the WHO is advising countries all around the world and some of them are experiencing shortages. If they told people that masks worked everyone would go out and buy them in those countries.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
We have a good supply in the US now,
do you have any sources that confirm this? I have heard there are critical shortages among medical professionals. If this is not true please provide a source.
If they told people that masks worked everyone would go out and buy them in those countries.
in the article linked, they aren't saying people shouldn't wear masks. They said there isn't conclusive proof they help and that when medical professionals are critically short, they need to get priority access to them. I have seen lots of people lately using masks wrong and touching their face anyway. I don't find it hard to believe that they may not be very effective for the average person who can't/won't use them properly.
No one gave a shit about all the other just as deadly viruses, why do they care now? All media and govt hype and hysterics. The media and govt lemmings fall in line. I haven't changed the way I live and don't ever plan to. I wont live in fear in the very world I was born into. There are risks everywhere, you are safe from nothing. Corona virus is about 100th on the list of things that could kill me tomorrow. I have had to tell a lot of mask Nazis to fuck off and die though. So that has changed. Having to tell more people to get away from me and fuck off. That has changed. I keep to myself , not talk to anyone unless necessary, mind my own business or bother anyone. Seems, from my experience and 56 years of living, not many can do that.
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@sadolite
No one gave a shit about all the other just as deadly viruses, why do they care now?
what viruses would those be exactly? The reason that corona is so bad is that it is quite deadly, but also spreads extremely easily. There are lots of other diseases that are more deadly, but their extreme symptoms tend to make them obvious which makes containing them much easier.
Corona virus is about 100th on the list of things that could kill me tomorrow.
given that you have made it clear you do not take the proper precautions and that you appear to be in an age bracket which would put you at increased risk of death, I'd say it is much higher on your list than you seem to think is.
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@HistoryBuff
I'm guessing you are one of those mask Nazi's and like to play dumb by saying what other virus's
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@HistoryBuff
We have a good supply in the US now,do you have any sources that confirm this? I have heard there are critical shortages among medical professionals. If this is not true please provide a source.
Hard data is hard to find, but the chart in this https://time.com/5823983/coronavirus-ppe-shortage/ shows that a majority of facilities in the US had at least a week's supply. The US has the manufacturing capacity and technical expertise to increase production by switching over product lines, many countries do not. The USA is also the largest consumer market in the world, is immensely wealthy, and so can throw its weight around in the now strangled global PPE market. Compare that to a country like Nepal, which was experiencing even heavier shortages, has no manufacturing capability for up to standard PPE, and lacks the socioeconomic heft to throw their weight around in a market in which demand has skyrocket to unprecedented levels.
These smaller, more poor countries are very much reliant on supplies from international organizations like the WHO or UNICEF, and so their unique situation warrants intense rationing. The US, relatively, is in a much better condition, and so can apply a different standard.
in the article linked, they aren't saying people shouldn't wear masks. They said there isn't conclusive proof they help and that when medical professionals are critically short, they need to get priority access to them. I have seen lots of people lately using masks wrong and touching their face anyway. I don't find it hard to believe that they may not be very effective for the average person who can't/won't use them properly.
The idea that home-made masks are there to protect you, and that you can 'invalidate' your protection in some way by touching the mask, is a common misconception. The utility that they hold is in slowing down the breath which you expel, which limits the distance that anything which you exhale will eventually travel. This, combined with social distancing, limits person-person spread through airborne particles. This is by far the most common form of transmission; transmission via fomite (which is why you shouldn't touch your face) is much less common. The only way to wear the mask 'wrong' in this context is to not have it fully cover your nose and mouth. If you breath in your nose and out your mouth, you could even leave your nose out, if you have a physically intense job and it is hot.
There are masks which have much stricter protocols for use and which are meant to protect you by filtering out viral particles. These are typically fitted products, are expensive, and should be retained for medical professionals and first responders. Homemade masks, or even surgical masks, will do nothing to protect you personally from the virus; the weave is not tight enough to filter out the causative agent.
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@sadolite
I'm guessing you are one of those mask Nazi's and like to play dumb by saying what other virus's
this doesn't appear to be a complete sentence. I don't know what you are saying.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Hard data is hard to find, but the chart in this https://time.com/5823983/coronavirus-ppe-shortage/ shows that a majority of facilities in the US had at least a week's supply.
i'm looking at your source and it seems to contradict you. look at that 1st graph. It says 20% of hospitals have no supply of masks. 41% have less than a week's worth. only 11% of respondents had enough supplies to last more than 2 weeks. That seems like an extremely critical shortage.
The US has the manufacturing capacity and technical expertise to increase production by switching over product lines, many countries do not.
ok, but at present hospitals cannot guarantee they can provide their employees with protective equipment. Until that is resolved it is irresponsible to get people who should be staying inside to buy up the masks they need.
The USA is also the largest consumer market in the world, is immensely wealthy, and so can throw its weight around in the now strangled global PPE market.
There is a worldwide shortage of masks. Everyone needs them, everyone is short of them. Are you arguing that america should buy up all the masks in the world so that average people can wear them (incorrectly) for probably no benefit while doctors in other countries die due to not being able to get medical equipment?
These smaller, more poor countries are very much reliant on supplies from international organizations like the WHO or UNICEF, and so their unique situation warrants intense rationing. The US, relatively, is in a much better condition, and so can apply a different standard.
but your own source says that 61% of hospitals have less than 1 week's worth of supplies. that is a critical shortage. rationing is very much warrented.
There are masks which have much stricter protocols for use and which are meant to protect you by filtering out viral particles. These are typically fitted products, are expensive, and should be retained for medical professionals and first responders. Homemade masks, or even surgical masks, will do nothing to protect you personally from the virus; the weave is not tight enough to filter out the causative agent.
I don't believe this article is about homemade masks. It appeared to be about medical masks like n95 masks. I'm not sure if the WHO has an official recommendation about that.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
here ya go
Previous research also shows that surgical masks can be almost as efficient as N95 respirators at reducing influenza infection among health care personnel. This is because they protect the nose and mouth from larger droplets from coughs and sneezes. It is unknown whether this is true for COVID-19.
huh, makes you wonder why masks were never recommended during flu seasons....
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
ok, your own quote says that it is unknown if surgical masks are effective against covid so I fail to see how this is useful.
huh, makes you wonder why masks were never recommended during flu seasons....
because people wouldn't wear them. people are throwing an absolute fit over wearing them now for a disease that is 6-30 times deadlier than the flu. Do you really think people would wear them for the flu?
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@HistoryBuff
they never promoted or informed the public in any meaningful way about wearing masks during flu season have they?
anyone who has u.r.i. symptoms should be encouraged and voluntarily wear a mask if they are able.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
they never promoted or informed the public in any meaningful way about wearing masks during flu season have they?
what is your point? I don't see how your question is relevant to what we are talking about.
anyone who has u.r.i. symptoms should be encouraged and voluntarily wear a mask if they are able.
has anyone ever told them not to? again, what is your point?
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@HistoryBuff
Hard data is hard to find, but the chart in this https://time.com/5823983/coronavirus-ppe-shortage/ shows that a majority of facilities in the US had at least a week's supply.i'm looking at your source and it seems to contradict you. look at that 1st graph. It says 20% of hospitals have no supply of masks. 41% have less than a week's worth. only 11% of respondents had enough supplies to last more than 2 weeks. That seems like an extremely critical shortage.
By global standards it's very mild. The idea that we will ever be anywhere near our situation in normal times under these circumstances is completely detached from reality.
The US has the manufacturing capacity and technical expertise to increase production by switching over product lines, many countries do not.ok, but at present hospitals cannot guarantee they can provide their employees with protective equipment. Until that is resolved it is irresponsible to get people who should be staying inside to buy up the masks they need.
It won't be resolved. We can't operate in a fantasy world where there are magical solutions to structural supply issues like this.
The USA is also the largest consumer market in the world, is immensely wealthy, and so can throw its weight around in the now strangled global PPE market.There is a worldwide shortage of masks. Everyone needs them, everyone is short of them. Are you arguing that america should buy up all the masks in the world so that average people can wear them (incorrectly) for probably no benefit while doctors in other countries die due to not being able to get medical equipment?
I'm definitely in support of America buying up as much masks as possible, so that average people can wear them (correctly) for great benefit while doctors in other countries figure out their own problems.
These smaller, more poor countries are very much reliant on supplies from international organizations like the WHO or UNICEF, and so their unique situation warrants intense rationing. The US, relatively, is in a much better condition, and so can apply a different standard.but your own source says that 61% of hospitals have less than 1 week's worth of supplies. that is a critical shortage. rationing is very much warrented.
That's not how supply chains work. That data doesn't mean that one week after that graph is published, those hospitals in the red will be out of masks. If production is being ramped up (combined with aggressive action in the international market), then supplies of masks will continue to flow into hospitals, and those red areas will shrink. And we are rationing masks already.
There are masks which have much stricter protocols for use and which are meant to protect you by filtering out viral particles. These are typically fitted products, are expensive, and should be retained for medical professionals and first responders. Homemade masks, or even surgical masks, will do nothing to protect you personally from the virus; the weave is not tight enough to filter out the causative agent.I don't believe this article is about homemade masks. It appeared to be about medical masks like n95 masks. I'm not sure if the WHO has an official recommendation about that.
The article is clearly about facemasks, which are very different from respirators.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
here ya goPrevious research also shows that surgical masks can be almost as efficient as N95 respirators at reducing influenza infection among health care personnel. This is because they protect the nose and mouth from larger droplets from coughs and sneezes. It is unknown whether this is true for COVID-19.huh, makes you wonder why masks were never recommended during flu seasons....
In general the East Asian principle of wearing masks when sick has a lot to be said for it, and I think that their cultural practice of doing so has contributed to the largely successful containment of the virus in Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and Vietnam. I think that wearing them while not sick is only really warranted with an exceptionally contagious pathogen like COVID-19.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
By global standards it's very mild. The idea that we will ever be anywhere near our situation in normal times under these circumstances is completely detached from reality.
60% of hospitals could run out of critical supplies within days, that is not mild. That is critical. If those supplies run out you could see the medical system collapse as all the medical staff get sick.
It won't be resolved. We can't operate in a fantasy world where there are magical solutions to structural supply issues like this.
i'm not pretending there is a magical solution. I'm saying giving medical masks to the general populace when 60% of hospitals are critically short of supplies is nuts.
I'm definitely in support of America buying up as much masks as possible, so that average people can wear them (correctly) for great benefit while doctors in other countries figure out their own problems.
this is exactly the sort of mentality that is going to cost america in the long run. I understand america 1st. But this kind of mentality is "america only". Basically fuck the entire world, we want you all dead. That does not help. Both because if outbreaks get out of control in those countries (because all the doctors are sick) then it will re-spread to america. but also because all those other countries are not going to want to co-operate with the US if they all see america as evil assholes. Which they will if the US is actively trying to kill their doctors.
That's not how supply chains work. That data doesn't mean that one week after that graph is published, those hospitals in the red will be out of masks. If production is being ramped up (combined with aggressive action in the international market), then supplies of masks will continue to flow into hospitals, and those red areas will shrink.
that graph doesn't say that those hospitals are getting enough masks though. it says they don't have enough to last the week if they don't get more. You say production has ramped up enough to cover what hospitals need, but i haven't seen any evidence that this is true. Just a graph that says 20% of hospitals are already out of critical supplies and another 40% have less than a week's worth. If there really is enough production to cover all hospitals, then great. But so far you have provided no evidence this is true. And many, many doctors and nurses are saying they don't have enough.
The article is clearly about facemasks, which are very different from respirators.
this is a quote from the article:
"There also is the issue that we have a massive global shortage," Ryan said about masks and other medical supplies. "Right now the people most at risk from this virus are frontline health workers who are exposed to the virus every second of every day. The thought of them not having masks is horrific."
They are talking about medical masks. they are not talking about masks people make at home.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
In general the East Asian principle of wearing masks when sick has a lot to be said for it, and I think that their cultural practice of doing so has contributed to the largely successful containment of the virus in Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and Vietnam. I think that wearing them while not sick is only really warranted with an exceptionally contagious pathogen like COVID-19.
I agree, however the W.H.O. and others disagree with regards to people who are not sick.
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@HistoryBuff
has anyone ever told them not to?
because you think the average person would know to before covid? isn't the job of the CDC to inform the citizens?
what is your point?
again, if it's really about saving lives then why didn't they get out the information about masks long ago to minimize all the flu deaths that could have been prevented? They didn't bother to inform then, for flu etc, but NOW it's mandatory because flu deaths don't matter apparently, or other pneumonias which could be prevented by masks.
apparently the surgical and homemade masks are far more effective against flu than covid but we just hear crickets about that don't we.
Have you seen anyone or anything asking people to save masks for this coming flu season which may also include covid? neither have I.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
because you think the average person would know to before covid? isn't the job of the CDC to inform the citizens?
2 things. 1) they can't even get people to wear masks for a disease many, many times more deadly than the flu. Sadly, they have to take the stupidity and intransigence of people into account when making recommendations. Telling people to do things you know they won't do is counter productive. it makes them less likely to listen to other things you have to say.
2) how do you know what their recommendations were previously? I certainly don't. What the CDC recommends for flu season is not something 99% of people would ever have heard of.
again, if it's really about saving lives then why didn't they get out the information about masks long ago to minimize all the flu deaths that could have been prevented?
see my 2 points above.
Have you seen anyone or anything asking people to save masks for this coming flu season which may also include covid? neither have I.
lol the world is in a massive crisis right now, and you are pissed that they aren't giving recommendations for what to do for a lesser problem that is months away? Priorities man.
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@HistoryBuff
By global standards it's very mild. The idea that we will ever be anywhere near our situation in normal times under these circumstances is completely detached from reality.60% of hospitals could run out of critical supplies within days, that is not mild. That is critical. If those supplies run out you could see the medical system collapse as all the medical staff get sick.
That is mild. The graph was also of current stock, not rate of replenishment, at a time when production was being ramped up. Don't take more information from a data set than it is giving you. Common rookie mistake ;)
It won't be resolved. We can't operate in a fantasy world where there are magical solutions to structural supply issues like this.i'm not pretending there is a magical solution. I'm saying giving medical masks to the general populace when 60% of hospitals are critically short of supplies is nuts.
Not if it reduces pressure on hospitals by flattening the curve of infection rate.
I'm definitely in support of America buying up as much masks as possible, so that average people can wear them (correctly) for great benefit while doctors in other countries figure out their own problems.this is exactly the sort of mentality that is going to cost america in the long run. I understand america 1st. But this kind of mentality is "america only". Basically fuck the entire world, we want you all dead. That does not help. Both because if outbreaks get out of control in those countries (because all the doctors are sick) then it will re-spread to america. but also because all those other countries are not going to want to co-operate with the US if they all see america as evil assholes. Which they will if the US is actively trying to kill their doctors.
The idea that other countries make major geopolitical decisions based on something like mask purchasing tactics in naive, and in the end is just a cope. America is the world's only superpower, that comes with benefits for its citizens.
Our only competitor is also the one precipitating the crisis in the first place by hoarding masks (which they produce the bulk of), so it's not like we're giving them room to make political inroads by exploiting the crisis. I don't want to rest of the world dead, but if it's us or them then I chose us. That's what being a citizen of a country ought to mean.
That's not how supply chains work. That data doesn't mean that one week after that graph is published, those hospitals in the red will be out of masks. If production is being ramped up (combined with aggressive action in the international market), then supplies of masks will continue to flow into hospitals, and those red areas will shrink.that graph doesn't say that those hospitals are getting enough masks though. it says they don't have enough to last the week if they don't get more. You say production has ramped up enough to cover what hospitals need, but i haven't seen any evidence that this is true. Just a graph that says 20% of hospitals are already out of critical supplies and another 40% have less than a week's worth. If there really is enough production to cover all hospitals, then great. But so far you have provided no evidence this is true. And many, many doctors and nurses are saying they don't have enough.
This graph is from April. Have we had catastrophic hospital failures since then? No. The only reason hospitals are closing/laying off staff is because they are being financially choked by bans on elective surgeries, which are their bread and butter.
The article is clearly about facemasks, which are very different from respirators.this is a quote from the article:"There also is the issue that we have a massive global shortage," Ryan said about masks and other medical supplies. "Right now the people most at risk from this virus are frontline health workers who are exposed to the virus every second of every day. The thought of them not having masks is horrific."They are talking about medical masks. they are not talking about masks people make at home.
Doctors also use surgical masks depending on the context, which are available in US drug stores and are being worn fairly widely in the US. When I saw a doctor due to having the flu in February he had a surgical face mask on, not a respirator. In the medical/biotech field, you typically call respirators respirators and surgical masks 'face masks' because they're different things. I've worked in biotech, and nobody ever called a respirator a 'mask' because, well, it's not a mask. The article is talking specifically about 'face masks', so surgical masks or the less effective homemade masks that people are using will fall under that category. Respirators should not be used by the general public.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
In general the East Asian principle of wearing masks when sick has a lot to be said for it, and I think that their cultural practice of doing so has contributed to the largely successful containment of the virus in Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and Vietnam. I think that wearing them while not sick is only really warranted with an exceptionally contagious pathogen like COVID-19.I agree, however the W.H.O. and others disagree with regards to people who are not sick.
Everyone, healthy or sick, buying masks during flu season every year would precipitate exactly the sort of supply crisis we're experiencing right now, so isn't feasible policy. This is why the WHO is currently contradicting the CDC and lying about masks protecting the general public. It has everything to modifying consumer behavior, and nothing to do with objective, scientific fact.