Dying and Rising God/Jesus myth

Author: Stephen

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#1
Stephen
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The Philosopher Celsus critisised Christians for trying to pass off the Jesus story as a new revelation when it was actually an inferior imitation of pagan myths. He asked:

" Are these distinctive happenings unique to the Christians - and if so, how are they unique"? Or are ours to be accounted myths and theirs believed? What reasons do Christians give for the distinctiveness of their beliefs?  In truth there is nothing at all about what the Christians believe, except that they believe it to exclusion of the more comprehensive truths about god"    Indeed, and well said that man. 
How could pagan myths which predate Christian beliefs about their god-man Jesus by hundreds if not thousands of years (in the case of Mesopotamian myths and legends) have so much in common with the life  story ' one and only  savior ' Jesus ?


The common thread  that relates all the gods and heroes of many cultures and religions is the myth that these deities,  for one reason or another , die and then after their corpse's  have been left stinking and rotting in one kind of a tomb or grave for days on end, they have suddenly and for reasons  explainable, have  just, hey presto!  sprung back to life.!!!   like is was all magic trick. <<<<< there may be some truth to that yet. 

It also appears that many of these - once dead for a few days and come alive again gods - have another thing in common, they are all, or many of them are born of virgins where some god/ or ghost or spirit as come unto them while they slept and then come into them thereby impregnating them with the new god or hero them. 

Examples:
Gautama Buddha:  born of the virgin Maya  Around 600 BC

Dionysus:  Greek god, born of a virgin in a stable and turned water into wine !!!

Quirrnus:  born of a virgin and known as a Savior.

Attis:  born of a virgin in Phrygia around 200 BC

Indra:  born of a virgin in Tibet around 700 BC.

Krishna: Hindu god, born of a virgin devaki around 1200BC.

Adonis:  Babylonian god born of a virgin ishtar. 

Zoroaster: born of a virgin around 1500 BC.

And there is Mithra.  Mithra is particularly problematic for Christians as I once explained here #12 and here's why:

Christianity/ Christians, who have adopted all kinds of myths and legends  (and gods) ,from many cultures will deny anything that shines a light on how fraudulent their `religion` actually is.  The whole foundation of their/christian ideology comes from Persia.  Before the Christ there have been many dying and rising gods born of "virgins" but the one in particular that is awkward for Christians is the cult of Mithra; born of a virgin, in a stable on 25 December  over 600 years before Christ!!!! Mithraism is an off-shoot of the more ancient Persian cult of Zoroaster which was introduced into the Roman Empire around 67 BC.

Zoroastrian beliefs and doctrines include immortality, a sacramental meal, a savior god, resurrection, last judgment, heaven hell and a few other things that I  can't remember off the top of my head.  Yet you can guarantee that Christians will have it  that Mithraism/ Zoroastrianism are both pagan religions, while denying that their own religion has very firm foundations in both these `pagan` cultures.

So, over the centuries it can be clearly seen that many innocent young girls have been giving birth to children of gods and if the Romans had decided to adopt any other one of these dying and rising gods born of virgins, then we may have been reading things like   ' Attis loves you,  '  or  `Quirrnus saves '   in the back windows of modern vehicles today in the 21st century.







 










#2
fauxlaw
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@Stephen
Does it bother you at all that no surviving manuscript of Celsus' On the True Doctrine exists, and is only known in its best completion by a critic, Origen, whose Against Celsus, allegedly quoted Celsus extensively? Alleged.
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@Stephen
@fauxlaw
What a fantastic post, Stephen.


I wondered about the cross commonalities, and you have articulated it very well for me.    Fauxlaw, my perspective on Stephen's post is a high-level inquiry about the multiple similarities between religions around the world that are all  BC/BCE and Christianity claims.    

He highlights very clearly the multiple areas of similarities that certainly brings forth a valid question.    So how does Christianity reconcile these similarities and try to make a superior claim them?  Questing if original text from one of those other religions misses the point.

I am watching this with immense curiosity.

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#4
Stephen
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@ FAUXLAW.   


 Yet another comment from the hit  and hide  dirty  forum coward mk II.

Does it bother you

NOPE!  Does it not  concern you that your man-god Jesus is certainly not the first dying and rising  deity. Or the first man-god to be born of a "virgin, in a stable, and was able to turn water into wine"? Allegedly







#5
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@fauxlaw
Does it bother you at all that no surviving manuscript of Celsus' On the True Doctrine exists, and is only known in its best completion by a critic, Origen, whose Against Celsus, allegedly quoted Celsus extensively? Alleged.
Not only this,  but these pagan religions have scant early manuscripts found before AD100 and the bulk comes from around AD300 and beyond. Jesus warned after His departure savage wolves would try to undermine the church. If Stephen wants to make these claims he needs to show convincing evidence that the earliest records mirror the pagan beliefs, not the other way around, that these pagan belief expand and borrow from Christianity.                                                                                                                    Stephen needs to show the references that he alleges Christianity borrows from and the earliest manuscripts available as to there similarity. How did these pagan teachings change over time?
#6
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@Stephen
Does it not  concern you that your man-god Jesus is certainly not the first dying and rising  deity. Or the first man-god to be born of a "virgin, in a stable, and was able to turn water into wine"? Allegedly
Did I say Jesus was the first of myths to be born to a virgin in a stable, etc? Find my statement of those and give them to me. Not me, said the cow to the little red hen. But you sure do like to invent with abandon, don't you? Keep it up; you're lookin' good to a blind man.
#7
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@CaptainSceptic
my perspective on Stephen's post is a high-level inquiry about the multiple similarities between religions around the world that are all  BC/BCE and Christianity claims.    
Until you realize, as I reminded Stephen, that his first source was not original to that source, but a critic's quotation of him. And many others have depended on this second0-hand witness? A critical second-hand witness. That there are other myths is not at all recent news, just as it is not exactly news that creation, the flood, Moses in the reeds, Abraham sacrificing Isaac, Elijah riding to heaven on a chariot, etc, etc, etc have similar stories up the yin-yang without a paddle.

So what? Mankind thinks alike around the world? Not news, either. And that does not take high-level inquiry. So much for window dressing.
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@Stephen
@fauxlaw
So what?  Mankind thinks alike around the world?
We are getting somewhere,   So you admit that there are similarities "up the yin-yang without a paddle"

However, you have dodged Stephens question (which I have as well)


Why does Christianity have the right to claim ownership to what you have admitted is a global similarity.



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#9
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@ FAUXLAW.    Yet another comment from the hit  and hide  dirty  forum coward mk II.


And I  just cannot remember which library  the original manuscripts for  Jesus  the Nazarene Jew king "son of God"  who walked on water, healed a blind man but not blindness,  a cured a leper but not leprosy,   are housed in.  But I can tell you which library they certainly are not housed in: National Library of Israel!!!!!! Jesus was a Jew, who believed himself to be king of the Jews , and not King of the Christians.

Strange though, it is said that they paid millions for Issac Newton's papers yet not a single paper or text or manuscript about or written by your born of a virgin Jesus. I guess it is because  he was just too much of  your  common,  run - of - the - mill, dying and rising god of which there are plenty to choose from.

Did I say Jesus was the first of myths to be born to a virgin in a stable, etc?

 Nope and I never said you did. Interesting that you at least acknowledge that your  Nazarene agitating Jew was NOT the first mythological "virgin born son of a god"....... by thousands of years. 


#10
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@CaptainSceptic
it was a bad post
#11
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@CaptainSceptic
If you, Stephen, and I all have a red apple in our hand, can we not all claim it? Why should I be singled out as the interloper? Because it's popular to do that, today? Bad reason, my friend. Just a bad reason. Did I start a string saying I have a red apple, and neither of you did? So, since you both also have a red apple, or maybe my apple is not a red as yours, or you laugh because my apple does not look like an apple at all, or is the last apple from the tree, you're both entitled to tell me my apple is a myth? 

Nope, an objective judge would cry foul. There's just not that many of them around, yeah?
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@Stephen
@fauxlaw
Fauxlaw,  That is great to hear (read)!!!  I am glad that you acknowledge that Christianity is not "the" religion, but one of many potentials, all equal.  All area red apples.

That is a very mature approach.  I wish others had that same intelligence.


#13
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Oh no!  FAUXLAW has jumped off the deep end once again!  As if his incoherent post in another thread wasn't enough with its abhorrent English, misspelled words, and convoluted subject matter, now FAUXLAW has chosen "Apples" in his next embarrassing forte into metaphysical abstracts!    :(

FAUXLAW EMBARRASSING QUOTE # 49237498:  "If you, Stephen, and I all have a red apple in our hand, can we not all claim it? Why should I be singled out as the interloper? Because it's popular to do that, today? Bad reason, my friend. Just a bad reason. Did I start a string saying I have a red apple, and neither of you did? So, since you both also have a red apple, or maybe my apple is not a red as yours, or you laugh because my apple does not look like an apple at all, or is the last apple from the tree, you're both entitled to tell me my apple is a myth? "

HUH? 

I keep telling the membership that FAUXLAW has been truly possessed by Satan Himself!   Are there any exorcists in the membership that can help FAUXLAW because my praying to Jesus about FAUXLAW's ungodly MO has not worked!  HELP!


.


#14
Melcharaz
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Its an intresting claim, i never thought christians came up with the idea of God being man or ressurecting. Krishna for example has been a long standing example.

I dont believe there is a need to reconcile anything, the idea of a God on earth in a mans image is very common, what is uncommon about Jesus is the idea of God dying for man to save him. 

The most unique idea christianity introduces is God himself living in a creature of sin. Krishna doesnt do that, buddha doesnt either, you could argue bra-hman introduced himself in creation, but not specifically in man and leaving out others. Shintoism hints on it, but never addresses God as that spirit.  

So many other religions dont have God being avalible to enter mankind specifically to save him.

#15
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@Melcharaz
Its an intresting claim, i never thought christians came up with the idea of God being man or ressurecting. Krishna for example has been a long standing example.

I dont believe there is a need to reconcile anything, the idea of a God on earth in a mans image is very common, what is uncommon about Jesus is the idea of God dying for man to save him. 

The most unique idea christianity introduces is God himself living in a creature of sin. Krishna doesnt do that, buddha doesnt either, you could argue bra-hman introduced himself in creation, but not specifically in man and leaving out others. Shintoism hints on it, but never addresses God as that spirit.  

So many other religions dont have God being avalible to enter mankind specifically to save him.
Yep! You've nailed it!

The funny part is that a number of people who claim to be skeptics fall for this trick. They're skeptical about Christianity, but apparently don't know that, yes, atheists will lie. When the Zeitgeist movie came out, people fell for their Jesus/Horus scam like 19th century westerners buying up bottles at medicine shows.

In a similar thread, I posted a comparison chart showing uncanny similarities between The Titanic ship, and a fictional ship called the Titan written 14 years earlier. And between Abraham Lincoln, and John F. Kennedy. The similarities are probably more profound than the alleged similarities between deities and Jesus.

It's a common trick, and it's shocking to see how many fall for it. Basically, focus on similarities, and ignore the differences. Uncanny parallels could probably be made with Hitler and Napoleon, or Mussolini and Jerry Seinfeld.
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#16
Stephen
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@ FAUXLAW.    Yet another comment from the hit  and hide  dirty  forum coward mk II.



If you, Stephen, [...........]  Why should I be singled out as the interloper?

Listen. You came to this thread. I certainly didn't drag you here kicking and screaming. But then you not only come to this thread and comment 4-5 times, you commented without leaving the opportunity for me to address you AND your comments directly. This is cowardly practice by someone who simply doesn't want to read or listen to other peoples opinions and certainly do not want to even consider, for a split second, that others just may have  valid and real points. . Yet here you are addressing me DIRECT and  BY NAME personally.  If you have me on block then it shouldn't be allowed for you to carry on this cowardly  weasel-like practice of commenting and then running away. 

Because it's popular to do that, today?

Stop whining and playing the victim.  Address the subject matter or leave the thread.  I am not bothered about your personal beliefs or that you have a  faith.  I am though concerned with what it is that you have faith IN!. DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE!!!!!

So away with your victim-hood and woe is me. I don't care that your  feelings are hurt. 

Christians have taken myths from many mystery schools and wrapped them around a very real human being who simply wanted to free his people -JEWS  -  from the Roman yoke  and -  according to many -  paid with his life.  That is the REAL biography of your Christ.  Jesus was a JEW not a Christian. He taught at a JEWISH temple not a Christian church. He preached to JEWS not Christians He returned from the Egyptian mystery schools to save JEWS, not Christians. He was king of the JEWS not king of the Christians. Get over it princess.

From my understanding, Jesus king  and high priest of the JEWS, would have been totally appalled that a whole new religious ideology had sprung up in his name.

Read this very slowly and learn something from your own scriptures, JUST FOR FKN ONCE!!!! you whining little tart.  I have even given you a clue



Matthew 22:41-45
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
    under your feet.”’
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”





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#17
Stephen
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@CaptainSceptic
Fauxlaw,  That is great to hear (read)!!!  I am glad that you acknowledge that Christianity is not "the" religion, but one of many potentials, all equal.

Not so quick there, Captain.  Tertullian the  early Christian author was not on the same bus as fauxlaw is pretending to be on.   No!

Tertullian called the myth and mystery of Mithras -  the Devil's  "diabolical mimicry " .  Tertullian has it that the devil " whose business it is to pervert the truth" had the audacity to  preempt the exact circumstances of the coming of Jesus and  the divine sacraments over a thousand + years before the event :

" he baptises his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the Sacred Mount and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras.  Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread and brings in the symbol of resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the Devil that copies those of the divine" <<<<<<<< this was the utter desperation that Christians went to explain away the striking similarities that the Christian cult has with the ancient Mithras/Zoroastian  pagan cult of Persia.

So we see, that the church fathers created one of the most absurd explanations. They had  actually declared that the Devil had plagiarised Christianity by anticipation in order to lead people astray!  Knowing that "the true son of god" was to come to earth, the Devil had copied the whole story of the life of Jesus over a thousand years advance.
Bravo Mr Satan Devil  Lucifer, what a clever little creation of god you are.
#18
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@Stephen
Whosoever  thought up the first god hypothesis did and did so for a reason.

So what were their reasons?

I would suggest that some people deliberately overlook the obvious,  in pursuit of the spiritual.

Also, embellishing the hypothesis is probably just a case one-upmanship.

Our god was born of a virgin...Ah, but our god was born of a virgin and he died and rose again and we also have the biggest pointiest buildings in the world and the best songs and the smelliest incense...so there....Ah, ours is best and yours is rubbish and you do the praying thing all wrong...so we will cut off your f***ing head....Ah, but we sit about all day humming and contemplating....  D'oh!
#19
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@Stephen
Krishna's mother had 7 children before him. Also, Isis had sex with the dead body of Osiris.
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@Dynasty
Krishna's mother had 7 children before him. Also, Isis had sex with the dead body of Osiris.

Indeed. There were so many to choose from. Had Christians chosen any other mystery school myth  we may have had car stickers proclaiming
`Marduk Loves You`< Babylonian  Or ` Tammuz Saves`<Sumarian
#21
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@Stephen
Most, if not all of these have been refuted, for those who are open minded enough to search.
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#22
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@ronjs
Most, if not all of these have been refuted, for those who are open minded enough to search.

What do you mean, refuted? I think it is accepted that these dying and rising gods were all myths,  as was the born of virgin son of god Jesus also a  myth,  except to those who believed them to be true, which in the case of the god man Jesus, happen to be Christians.
#23
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@Stephen

Are there really a number of gods who have biographies shockingly similar to that of Jesus of Nazareth? Names that are commonly included in this group of so-called similar gods include Mithras, Dionysus, and Osiris, among others.
This image is one version of this attack on the deity of Christ that is continually circulating online. Some claim that other gods share the attributes of being virgin-born, being born on December 25th (which is not in the Bible, by the way), performing the same kinds of miracles Jesus did, dying (in some cases being crucified), and miraculously resurrecting from the dead.
Let’s examine several of the pagan gods that Christianity is alleged to have plagiarized, as well as three of these ‘shared’ life events: a virgin birth, death, and resurrection.
Mithras
Unless you consider emerging fully grown out of a rock being born of a virgin, this god already has one strike against being similar to Jesus. Certainly, he must have been crucified, right? No. Actually, Mithras didn’t even die–he was believed to be taken to paradise on a chariot when still alive. Since he didn’t die, he didn’t resurrect from the dead. Three strikes, you’re out!
Dionysus
Also known as Bachus, Dionysus doesn’t fare much better. He was said to be conceived out of an affair between Zeus and a mortal woman, Semele. After Zeus’ wife, Hera, found out she tricked the mortal into demanding that Zeus reveal himself in all his glory. He begrudgingly agreed, knowing that this would kill her. He was, however, able to rescue Dionysus and sewed him (or his heart) into his thigh until he was born. This is the claim for his ‘rebirth’–a far cry from the death and bodily resurrection of Jesus.
Osiris
There is no birth story recorded in regards to Osiris. He was eventually killed by his own brother, torn into 14 pieces, and strewn about Egypt. His sister (and wife), Isis, gathered and buried almost all of the pieces. Osiris became the ruler of the underworld as the god of the dead. Some versions of the life of Horus say that Osiris was magically reassembled by Isis and impregnated her before becoming ruler of the underworld. Even if this version is to be preferred, it is worth noting that, unlike Jesus, Osiris would have been brought back to life by another rather than by his own power.
Horus
As mentioned above, most versions of the birth of Horus are the result of a sexual relationship between Osiris and his wife-sister Isis. Some claim that Horus was crucified, but this is not only unsupported by history but is a major anachronism. Crucifixion was a Roman method of execution put into practice thousands of years later. They may as well say that Horus was killed in a motorcycle crash!
Rather than being crucified, most versions of the Horus myth do not have a death recorded at all. In some instances, it was believed that he merged with the sun god, Re, and each sunrise is a symbol of him being reborn each day. Again, this is hardly parallel to the resurrection of Jesus.



What do you mean, refuted? I think it is accepted that these dying and rising gods were all myths,  as was the born of virgin son of god Jesus also a  myth,  except to those who believed them to be true, which in the case of the god man Jesus, happen to be Christians.
But accepted by who?

Basically many people who have fallen for a scam. Again, it's a common trick. It's basically focusing on similarities, and ignoring differences. We could do this with user profiles. Someone could look at our profiles which are very similar (no information), and conclude that you and I are the same.

Why do these sensationalists bother to do this? Maybe not for money (unless they wrote a book), but people readily believe it. The irony is that a number of the people who believe the claims also claim to be skeptics.

#24
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@Stephen
I don't want to assume you didn't catch this but....

Indeed. There were so many to choose from. Had Christians chosen any other mystery school myth  we may have had car stickers proclaiming
`Marduk Loves You`< Babylonian  Or ` Tammuz Saves`<Sumarian
I believe Dynasty was emphasizing that these women were not virgins.
#25
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@Stephen
 Mithra; born of a virgin,
could not be more wrong


The iconic scenes of Mithras show him being born from a rock
You really have to stop watching zietgeist, its wrong
#26
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Gautama Buddha:  born of the virgin Maya  Around 600 BC

Dionysus:  Greek god, born of a virgin in a stable and turned water into wine !!!

Quirrnus:  born of a virgin and known as a Savior.

Attis:  born of a virgin in Phrygia around 200 BC

Indra:  born of a virgin in Tibet around 700 BC.

Krishna: Hindu god, born of a virgin devaki around 1200BC.

Adonis:  Babylonian god born of a virgin ishtar. 

Zoroaster: born of a virgin around 1500 BC.
All wrong- cant just make up lies out of thin air
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#27
Stephen
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@RoderickSpode

I don't want to assume you didn't catch this but....

Indeed. There were so many to choose from. Had Christians chosen any other mystery school myth  we may have had car stickers proclaiming
`Marduk Loves You`< Babylonian  Or ` Tammuz Saves`<Sumarian
I believe Dynasty was emphasizing that these women were not virgins.

Not all of these god-men were of virgin birth

Many of them were all the same person know by different names in different mystery cultures and settings. Mithra/Persia is a good example:  AKA   Osiris in Egypt -  Dionysus in Greece - Bacchus in Rome/Italy -  Attis  in Asia Minor - Adonis in Syria and so on.  The myth that has been wrapped around your god man Jesus is a combination of all of these BC myths.
And you seem to be missing my point. I am not saying your god-man Jesus didn't exist and is a 'mythical' character . I am saying Christians have  swaddled him in all of these myths of  these earlier miracle working ancient gods born of virgins. See #16





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@Dr.Franklin
 Mithra; born of a virgin,
could not be more wrong

You really need to learn to read, Frankie, lad

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#29
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@RoderickSpode
Are there really a number of gods who have biographies shockingly similar to that of Jesus of Nazareth? Names that are commonly included in this group of so-called similar gods include Mithras, Dionysus, and Osiris, among others.
This image is one version of this attack on the deity of Christ ..........

Its not an "attack" on Christ or Christians. You lot always have to play the  victim at every given chance.   I believe I have made myself more than clear and on hundreds of occasions now. So here it is again for the billionth time note underlined in bold>>>

Christians have taken myths from many mystery schools, myths and legends and wrapped them around a very real human being who simply wanted to free his people -JEWS  -  from the Roman yoke  and -  according to many -  paid with his life.  That is the REAL biography of your Christ.  Jesus was a JEW not a Christian. He taught at a JEWISH temple not a Christian church. he was a JEWISH priest not a Christian Priest. He preached to JEWS not Christians. He returned from the Egyptian mystery schools to save JEWS, not Christians. He was king of the JEWS not king of the Christians.  And he didn't perform a single "miracle". never,at all. And  you have four anonymous gospels that cannot even agree on the facts which day your god-man was born or  was crucified..

From my understanding,  Jesus king  and high priest of the JEWS  would have been totally appalled that a whole new religious ideology had sprung up in his name. 

The whole pint of this thread is that your god-man is not the first alleged dying and rising god of which there have been many. So stop your whining, and playing victim and accept it for what it is. 

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Deb-8-a-bull
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You don't  kill a bloke that can perform miracles. 
You simply cut out there voice box and throw them in a dungeon  and get them to do stuff. 
Jesus  would  be turning water into wine 13 hours of the day. 
Healing worthy  people  for 2 hours.  
Followed  by 2 hours of instant bucket o' fish. 
Day after Day.