Moses and Sargon

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 19
Topic's author
#1
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,618
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
It is common knowledge now that parts of the earlier Old Testament are stories of even older stories that come from Mesopotamia, today Iraq. The Flood story and the Creation story are all later versions of much older epics written down by the Sumerians. which brings me to the question of the story of Moses. 

Part, if not all of the Moses story is also from a much older Mesopotamian myth concerning  King Sargon of Akad.  Akad  was the name of a Mesopotamian city and its surrounding area. 

In Exodus 2-3 we read :   "And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink".

And, over a thousand years before the Moses story we have this coming from the Mesopotamian epics;

My changeling mother conceived me, in secret she bore me.
        She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen [tar and pitch] she sealed my lid.
        She cast me into the river which rose not over me (1,000 plus years prior Biblical Moses),
        The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water.
        Akki, the drawer of water, lifted me out as he dipped his pot.
        Akki, the drawer of water, [took me] as his son and reared me.

Does this make the Moses story a complete fabrication?  Did Moses even exist? Was he just an invention of the Israelites? Or simply a story taken and adopted ( for reason at tis time , unknown? ) by the Israelites. 

This isn't the only story from the Mesopotamian region that tells of babies in reed baskets either . It concerns  a race know to the  Sumerians as Anunnaki (  Anakim in the Old Testament)


“among the bulrushes, in reed baskets have I them found.
Ninki to the foundlings a likening took, as her own children she raised them.
Adapa she called the foundling boy, the girl she called Titi”.


#2
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Stephen
Paul Revere fashioned copper pots. So, in fact, did my sixth great grandfather in 1625 in Wells, Maine. Did the one invalidate the other?
Over how many generations did different peoples of the earth invent and employ the wheel. Did one invalidate the others?
Who made paper? 
A million other such events occurred worldwide. Did any invalidate the others?

Take your Moses and Sargon stories and accept that both likely occurred and neither invalidated the other.
#3
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,463
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
-->
@fauxlaw
Paul Revere fashioned copper pots. So, in fact, did my sixth great grandfather in 1625 in Wells, Maine. Did the one invalidate the other?
Yes it does. You probably had no sixth great grandfathers! 🤣
Topic's author
#4
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,618
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2

@FAUXLAW

And here he is again , the forum coward mark II, . chasing me around the forum .


Take your Moses and Sargon stories and accept that both likely occurred and neither invalidated the other.

Opinion.  And NO!!!  I don't accept that both,  or all three come to that,  actually occurred as individual and completely separate events. And they are not coincidental either.

The Moses story from beginning to end is riddled with faults and blinding mistakes. For instance, moses is not even a name it is a title. There is the fact that the moses story has it the Pharaoh's  daughter adopted moses  and raised him as a prince, yet not a single person asked where this "prince " came from. Don't make me laugh. 


This babies, bitumen and bulrushes bullshit story has definitely been lifted by the Israelite scribes  from the Mesopotamian legends as have other Genesis and Exodus tales. And it is there, as plain as day for anyone who cares to see for themselves. It is not a hard subject to research especially today when information is at one's fingertips. Unlike in my time when hard study and hours in a library were the order of the day.

Sargon of Akad has it that :

The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water.
        Akki, the drawer of water, lifted me out as he dipped his pot.

And over a THOUSAND YEARS LATER!!!!! Pharaoh's daughter  says  :


Exodus 2:10  When the child grew older, she took him to Pharaoh's daughter and he became her son. She named him Moses, saying, "I drew him out of the water." 

And you are trying to tell us/me  that these stories - over a THOUSAND YEARS APART -  are not the same and have nothing in common.  Get a grip lad. 
#5
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Stephen
zeitgeist has been debunked before
#6
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Barney
You probably had no sixth great grandfathers! 
Oh, but I did. The one I speak of immigrated from Scotland and set up shop in Maine in 1625 after arriving in Boston earlier that year. His name was John. My direct lineage through my father goes back to the 12th century. Sorry, did I miss advising that I am LDS? Genealogy is in our blood. I'm also a direct 4th generation descendant of Brigham Young.
#7
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,463
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
-->
@fauxlaw
But Paul Revere fashioned copper pots a century later. There could not have been earlier people who did likewise. Not only must those other people not have fashioned any copper pots, but they could not have existed at all! 🤣
#8
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Barney
What? No copper use specifically for cookware before Paul Revere? What history says that? It is well documented that Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans used copper to fashion cookware. Copper is plentiful, easily tooled even when cool, and is a great conductor of heat; all properties useful in making cookware. Copper was the first metal used in large scale for cooking, tooling, jewelry, etc. And my sixth great grandfather worked it in 1625, by which time it was a worldwide material in use.
#9
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,463
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
-->
@fauxlaw
But Paul Revere... Therefore, Egypt, Greece, and Rome never existed. 😎
#10
Singularity
Singularity's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 1,013
2
3
8
Singularity's avatar
Singularity
2
3
8
-->
@fauxlaw
He just gave one example. Space is limited, there are a lot of stories from ancient sumeria dated centuries before the bible that have similarities to the bible stories that you can't just dismiss. The pre flood kings were listed in sumerian myths first. https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/creation-myths/is-genesis-1-11-a-derivation-from-ancient-myths/ As was the flood. We have a tale of Gilgamesh saving every earth animal before a global flood took place. The bible appears to be stories derived from earlier civilizations and repackaged. The story he mentioned is not a similar story found in the bible, I mean come on. It is the same exact story
#11
Singularity
Singularity's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 1,013
2
3
8
Singularity's avatar
Singularity
2
3
8
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Zeitgeist took some liberties to prove a point, the bible stories are not unique to the bible though. parralelism aside which is a thing and can account for some similarities the zeitgeist movie pointed out, does not explain things too close to not be talking about the same thing, such as the sumerians and the pre flood kings. 
Topic's author
#12
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,618
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Singularity
He just gave one example. Space is limited, there are a lot of stories from ancient sumeria dated centuries before the bible that have similarities to the bible stories that you can't just dismiss.

 He and all Christians, can, will and do.  Christianity/ Christians, who have adopted all kinds of myths and legends  (and gods) ,from many cultures will deny anything that shines a light on how fraudulent their `religion` actually is.  The whole foundation of their/christian ideology comes from Persia.  Before the Christ there have been many dying and rising gods born of "virgins" but the one in particular that is awkward for Christians is the cult of Mithra; born of a virgin, in a stable on 25 December  over 600 years before Christ!!!! Mithraism is an off-shoot of the more ancient Persian cult of Zoroaster which was introduced into the Roman Empire around 67 BC.

Zoroastrian beliefs and doctrines include immortality, a sacramental meal, a savior god, resurrection, last judgment, heaven hell and a few other things that I  can't remember off the top of my head.  Yet you can guarantee that Christians will have it  that Mithraism/ Zoroastrianism are both pagan religions, while denying that their own religion has very firm foundations in both these `pagan` cultures.

I will create a new  thread on the subject of the many dying and rising gods.  when I have the time.
#13
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@Dr.Franklin
+100,000,000

We never seem to see quotations directly from their alleged sources. They pretty much always seem to originate from an author(s) claiming direct quoting from various sources. The quotes comparing Jesus and Horace from the *Egyptian Book of the Dead are complete fabrications. And I'll demand the same proof with Sumerian/Mesopotamian texts.


*Maybe the Zeitgeist con-artist crew were thinking of a book written about The Grateful Dead performing by the Egyptian pyramid?
#14
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
Of course then again maybe the sinking of the Titanic is a myth taken from a novel about a ship called the Titan....about 14 years earlier!

Titanic Titan
Both could sail faster than 20 knots
25 meters longer
Both sank in the North Atlantic

The Titanic sank, and more than half of her 2200 passengers and crew died.
The Titan also sank, and more than half of her 2500 passengers drowned
Both carried the minimum amount of lifeboats
"Unsinkable" sank after hitting an iceberg
Key Similarities
Third screw propellers
Were seen as "unsinkable" ships
She was the largest craft afloat and the greatest of the works of men.
Works cited
The similarities between the Titan and the Titanic
Vol XCIII, No. 311
Both had shortages of life boats
14 years before the Titanic sank

#15
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
And what about this so called president named John F. Kennedy (who all know to be a fictional president based off of the life of Abraham Lincoln?


Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.
Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.
The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain seven letters.
Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.
Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.
Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.
Both were shot in the head.
Lincoln’s secretary, Kennedy, warned him not to go to the theatre.
Kennedy’s secretary, Lincoln, warned him not to go to Dallas.
Both were assassinated by Southerners.
Both were succeeded by Southerners.
Both successors were named Johnson.
Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.
John Wilkes Booth was born in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald was born in 1939.
Both assassins were known by their three names.
Both names are comprised of fifteen letters.
Booth ran from the theater and was caught in a warehouse.
Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theater.
Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.

#16
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
Some similarities within both historical accounts and myths will be inevitable. Like a deity coming back to life from the dead. A particular mythological character for instance may get cut into little pieces who's body parts miraculously come back together bringing the character back to life. If someone wants to make this sound like Jesus' coming  back to life, they will throw in the word resurrected to make the mythological character sound like a predecessor to the Gospel account.

Some similarities within historical accounts and mythology will probably inevitably be influenced by another. But we can't assume the first  who put them into writing were the originators since the earliest historical accounts and myths were probably given orally.

Johnny tells a real account of something that happened in his life to Jimmy.

Ten years later Jimmy decides to write down that compelling story from Johnny.

A year or two later Johnny decides to write his story down on paper as well.

Someone reads the story from both Johnny's and Jimmy's writings.

The person notices differences in their version.

Who's account is more likely to be the accurate/most accurate one?
Topic's author
#17
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,618
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@RoderickSpode
  I'll demand the same proof with Sumerian/Mesopotamian texts.

Then get reading.    Royal Library of Ashurbanipal. 


They pretty much always seem to originate from an author(s) claiming direct quoting from various sources.

Christians believe the gospel accounts are eyewitness accounts  but never can explain and prove their origin , this is not to mention that they cannot even agree on when they were composed.  Goose Gander

#18
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Singularity
it was flat out lies
#19
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@RoderickSpode
possible