Lazarus. The "raising".

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Part (1)

This has to be the strangest story in the Gospels: the “raising” of Lazarus.
 
 From beginning to end it is vague, ambiguous and at one time just plain silly.
 
It has Jesus not being able to make up his mind and not seeming too bothered about this person he “loved”. It has suicidal followers and confused women and there are even hints that it all could have been a staged affair.  And in my opinion for this story to be included in the scriptures it has to mean something other than the “miracle” the gospellers want us to believe it is.
 
The first thing anyreader of the gospels will notice is that this “miracle” appears only in John’s Gospel although, it is now known that the story once appeared in Mark's gospel but has since been expunged. So here, right away, we have a why? And a why?
 
 
It begins with Lazarus falling sick and his sister Mary (the one who had anointed Jesus Earlier) sending word to Jesus of the “sickness” and who had decided it was a nice day and would take a stroll down to the river Jordan for the day which was about a mile away. John 11:1-3 KJV.
 
On arrival they blurted out that Lazarus “who he loved” was sick. Jesus’ response is somewhat dismissive with him saying Lazarus is not going to die and decided that there was no urgency to Lazarus’ “sickness” and decided to extend his holiday down by the river for another two days and even contemplated taking an excursion into Judea were it was known that the Jews wanted to “stone him”. 11:4 -8.
 
Jesus then makes comment about a man stumbling around in the dark
 
But then tells his disciples that Lazarus is asleep and then he tells them “plainly” that Lazarus Is now dead!
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death:but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly,Lazarus is dead.
So above, so far we have Lazarus, sick but not in any critical danger of dying, Jesus not worrying too much about and tarrying & dallying a further “two days longer”. Lazarus“asleep” and then, Lazarus is dead  which is in  complete contrary to what Jesus said at verse 11:4. He is not going to die.
 
 How did Jesus even know that Lazarus was dead? When they were still at the river location?
 
Then there is this enigmatic and ambiguous statement from Jesus himself:
 
“And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him”.11:15. ?????
 
“And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there” ?
 
 Why was he “glad”? And why for their sakes”?
 
“to the intent ye may believe”?
 
“Believe what”?  This Is beginning to sound all put up in advance.
 
 Still, they“go to him”, the now dead Lazarus.
 
But not before saying this enigmatic and outrageous statement:
““Let us also go,that we may die with him.”!!!!!? 11:16
Yes, you read that correctly. These apparent suicidal disciples or at least one, wanted to “die”with Lazarus!
 
Why?  They were one minute having a nice relaxing tarry and a chat down by the river where there was no sense of urgency about his “sick” friend who he “loved”, next minute, this disciple suggests he and all those that were there should go die too.
 
And it simply has to be recognised; that there are absolutely no mentions or indications at this point that Jesus is even contemplating raising Lazarus from the dead!  Or even spoke of raising the dead Lazarus or anyone else.

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Part (2)

On arrival back at Bethany the centre of Jesus’ operations, ne of the women do seem too happy about the situation, so it appears on the face of it, they this woman didn’t expect any miracles that day either when she says:
 
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 11:21.
What even causes her to believe that just by Jesus being there he could have saved her brother from a “sickness that wasn’t unto death”?
Maybe she didn't know the script?
 
 We get to the“raising” of the man he loved.
 
And when he thus had spoken,he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
 And he that was dead came forth,bound hand and foot with grave clothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
 
Yes , just like that, Jesus Raised him from the dead and off  he went, not a please or thank you or how the hell did you do that?
 
 
 So nothing seems to explain at all Jesus’ carelessness and indifference. It appears that Lazarus was closer to Jesus than even his disciples.
  The Scriptures never mention if Lazarus was ever a disciple, it is never explained.
Why did Jesus love this person seemingly above all other never explained
 
Lazarus was on a hitlist but never explained: Why? What had Lazarus done to deserve to die...again?
 
“Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
But The chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus”.
John 12:9-11
 
 
 
He didn’t even attend the crucifixion and after being raised from the dead himself, that’s gratitude for you. Didn’t this man owe Jesus his life?
 
And another anomalies in the fact that, this once dead now raised person who Jesus so, so loved,is never ever mentioned in the scriptures again. He vanishes completely and altogether. Unless of course, like many other characters in these scriptures,Lazarus also has another name or two?
 
The whole of thispeculiar, odd and enigmatic story can be read here: KJV
 
 
 



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@Stephen
Your first point ignores the text:

It has Jesus not being able to make up his mind and not seeming too bothered about this person he “loved”. It has suicidal followers and confused women and there are even hints that it all could have been a staged affair.  And in my opinion for this story to be included in the scriptures it has to mean something other than the “miracle” the gospellers want us to believe it is. - STEPHEN
1) Not able to make up His mind?
We are told as early as verse 4 that Jesus did not go then (when Lazarus was sick) because it was for the glory of God and His glorification that He tarry. Jesus not being able to make up His mind is not what the narrative tells us. It tells us there is a reason He did not go right there. 

4 But when Jesus heard this, He said, “This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.”

6 So when He heard that he was sick, He then stayed two days longer in the place where He was.

'So' in verse 6 refers back to the reason of verse 4.

'So' in verse 14 Jesus again reiterates that the reason He did not go earlier was for their benefit so that they might believe He had the power over death, "I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe."

14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.”

Thus, Thomas could say, "Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.” 

If Lazarus was dead and Jesus was going to raise him, then Thomas would reason that if he died Jesus could do the same, per Jesus' previous statements:

John 5:25 [ Two Resurrections ] Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Following up on this statement regarding resurrection, Jesus reiterates it in John 11 that also collaborates with what He stated in verse 4, for His glory and the glory of God. 

21 Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”

Again, this reinforces Thomas' understanding of
dying
that He would be raised again. 
***
Next, onto your objection to the mention in only one gospel. J.P.Holding gives an answer which I will condense and provide the link:

  1. there is NO requirement for ANY gospel to contain ANY specific events at all...it is ALL a function of what the authors were trying to focus on
  2. John points out that there are MANY events that were not recorded in his gospel---there is no reason to believe that the other gospel writers believed their accounts were exhaustive!!!
  3. Jesus did resurrections in the Synoptics that are not mentioned in John; therefore, we should not be surprised that John has some that the Synoptics didn't mention.
  4. There are many, many events in the Synoptics that are NOT mentioned in John...and there is evidence that John KNEW the Synoptics, and simply supplemented them, mostly with
    material
    they did NOT select to include.


***

Your next point is simply a restatement of your earlier point:

On arrival they blurted out that Lazarus “who he loved” was sick. Jesus’ response is somewhat dismissive with him saying Lazarus is not going to die and decided that there was no urgency to Lazarus’ “sickness” and decided to extend his holiday down by the river for another two days and even contemplated taking an excursion into Judea were it was known that the Jews wanted to “stone him”.

Again this point is answered with Jesus' statement in verse 4. The reason He did not go was so that they would learn a lesson about trusting in Him and who He claimed to be. The reason He did not go was so that the Father and He would be glorified. People would learn that what He said about being the truth and the resurrection was indeed true.

***
Regarding verses 11-14 you said:

So above, so far we have Lazarus, sick but not in any critical danger of dying, Jesus not worrying too much about and tarrying & dallying a further “two days longer”. Lazarus“asleep” and then, Lazarus is dead  which is in  complete contrary to what Jesus said at verse 11:4. He is not going to die.
And it did not END in death, for Lazarus was resurrected.

KJV - "This sickness is not unto death"
NIV - “This sickness will not end in death."
NASB - “This sickness is not to end in death"

What is the object lesson here? It is that those who believe in Jesus, even if they die they will live because they will be raised from death to life again, and spiritually that is what happens when one is born again. Spiritually their relationship with God is new and alive at the new birth, which is spiritual in nature. 

***
Your next quip:

 How did Jesus even know that Lazarus was dead? - STEPHEN

The logical answer? He was lead by the Spirit of God and He was in constant communion with His Father:

Matthew 12:18 “Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

John 8:38 I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

***

So you have made a big mountain out of a molehill. 

Continuing in next post.

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@Stephen


But not before saying this enigmatic and outrageous statement:““Let us also go,that we may die with him.”!!!!!? 11:16
- STEPHEN

Yes, you read that correctly. These apparent suicidal disciples or at leastone, wanted to “die”with Lazarus!
 
Why?  They were one minute having a nice relaxing tarry and a chat down by the river where there was no sense of urgency about his “sick” friend who he “loved”, next minute, this disciple suggests he and all those that were there should go die too.
 
And it simply has to be recognised; that there are absolutely no mentions or indications at this point that Jesus is even contemplating raising Lazarus from the dead!  Or even spoke of raising the dead Lazarus or anyone else.

- STEPHEN
No, you read into it an "apparent suicidal disciple." Before this event Jesus had spoken on being the resurrection and life and that those who believed in Him would never die and that those who are dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and live (John 5:25). The disciples risked persecution and death by being followers of Jesus. 

John 5:25-26
Two Resurrections
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;


That hour was NOW here. Lazarus, a dead man, would hear His voice and live. 

So, on your two charges, they are both reasonably dispelled by that one passage. There is a mention that Jesus will raise others from the dead, plus it is reasonable to believe through inference and induction, that Thomas remembered and understood this (John 5:25) and was willing to trust Jesus with his life. Another reasonable explanation would be since Jesus saw Jesus' miracles and remembered His resurrection narrative he reasoned Jesus could raise him from the dead also.

Suicide is different from self-sacrifice. Suicide is taking your own life. With self-sacrifice, it can be giving your life for a cause in the sense of using it to fulfill that cause by making that cause your life's work.

***

On arrival back at Bethany the centre of Jesus’ operations, ne of the women do seem too happy about the situation, so it appears on the face of it, they this woman didn’t expect any miracles that day either when she says:
 
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 11:21.
What even causes her to believe that just by Jesus being there he could have saved her brother from a “sickness that wasn’t unto death”?
Maybe she didn't know the script? - STEPHEN


His miracles, for one. Who He claimed to be, for another.


***

Yes, just like that, Jesus Raised him from the dead and off he went, not a please or thank you or how the hell did you do that? - STEPHEN
This is a jump to conclusions because it is not mentioned in the text. There were obviously lots of things omitted from the narrative but the message Jesus wanted the reader to get is there.

***
 
 So nothing seems to explain at all Jesus’ carelessness and indifference. It appears that Lazarus was closer to Jesus than even his disciples.
  The Scriptures never mention if Lazarus was ever a disciple, it is never explained.
Why did Jesus love this person seemingly above all other never explained
 
[1] Lazarus was on a hitlist but never explained: Why? What had Lazarus done to deserve to die...again?
 
[2] “Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
But The chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus”.
John 12:9-11

[3] He didn’t even attend the crucifixion and after being raised from the dead himself, that’s gratitude for you. Didn’t this man owe Jesus his life?  
- STEPHEN
[1] This is all pure speculation on your part. The rule of Scripture is that Scripture interprets itself. The context and other relevant verses explain the narrative.

Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead to never die again. 

Romans 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

1 Corinthians 15:20 [ The Order of Resurrection ] But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

Colossians 1:18 
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the
dead,
so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.


Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to eternal life.

[2] The chief priests were plotting Lazarus' death because of jealousy and resentment. Many people who heard of his resurrection were coming to see him, and some were believing in Jesus because of him. 

11 because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus.

[3] Again, an omission from the text is not something you can read into the text anything you please without being guilty of eisegesis unless there is sufficient reason from other texts to do so. 

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...Jesus not being able to make up His mind is not what the narrative tells us.
Wrong that is what it clearly suggests. I say it appears that he couldn’t make up his mind because : 1st, he said Lazarus would not die. Then he said Lazarus was “sleeping”.  “Sleeping” is put down to the disciples not understanding that when Jesus said “sleeping” what he actually meant was  Dead!  No these silly stupid illiterate disciples didn't understand the difference between only sleeping and DEAD!. I see.This is after he had told his disciples categorically, that Lazarus’ sickness was not life threatening.
...John 11: 4 “When Jesus heard that, he said, this sickness is not unto death.
But it turns out that Lazarus was very sick, his illness was life threatening and Lazarus did die. There is no getting away from it. Jesus got it wrong.
 ..It tells us there is a reason He Did not go right there. 
Yes and for all his tarrying he got it wrong. Lazarus was dead. Even one of the women commented that if he had come sooner he may have saved Lazarus; indeed he actually says he wouldn’t have died:
 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
... 'So' in verse 6 refers back to the reason of verse 4.
And Lazarus DID die and Jesus was wrong.
 ....14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,
He did, didn’the? And very clearly and plainly. So plain in fact there is no room for mistranslation or misinterpretation even into day’s modern English language,DEAD means DEAD! Which contradicts his earlier statement that Lazarus’“sickness” was not until death, doesn’t it?
...15 and I am glad for your sakes that I Was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.”
 Believe what?  
...Thus,Thomas could say, "Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.” If Lazarus was dead and Jesus was going to raise him, then Thomas would reason that if he died Jesus could do the same, per Jesus'previous statements:

Oh stop it. Why in the world would this man want to die and encourage others to die along with him? And you have missed the point that Jesus had showed no intention or inclination before hand or mentioned anything about resurrecting Lazarus from the dead.   He Didn't say:  "Lazarus is only sick but if he does die I will bring him back to life, so let us not be concerned or worry ourselves and extend our little break another two days- DID HE?
 And There is no mention whatsoever that they did DIE along with Lazarus either is there?

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Next,onto your objection to the mention in only one gospel. J.P.Holding gives an answer which I will condense and provide the link:
 1.there is NO requirement for ANY gospel to contain ANY specific events stall...it is ALL a function of what the authors were trying to focus on

I agree, they wanted to tell us the story that they wanted us to read and not necessarily the whole gospel truth.
 
2.Jesus did resurrections in the Synoptics that are not mentioned in John;therefore, we should not be surprised that John has some that the Synoptic mention.
He did. I am only surprised he only “raised”three people in all of the years of his ministry. The question for me is: why didn’t he “raise”  the "greatest prophet" John the Baptist after such a cruel degrading murder by Herod?
 
 
Your Next point is simply a restatement of your earlier point:Again This point is answered with Jesus' statement in verse 4..
 
 Yes that will be the verse 4 where we have Jesus telling his disciples that Lazarus wouldn’t die and then he eventually spells it out that he was wrong, makes excuse for being wrong “ all but for the grace of god” etc etc, (or you are interpreting that way) and tells then admits Lazarus has actually DIED!
 
What is the object lesson here? It is that those who believe in Jesus, even if they die they will live because they will be raised from death to life again, and spiritually that is what happens when one is born again. Spiritually their relationship with God is new and alive at the new birth, which is spiritual in nature. 
 That is a purely faith based assumption and illogical an one too. I knew you couldn't explain this story away without there being a "spiritual" explanation.

 
your next quip...  How Did Jesus even know that Lazarus was dead? - STEPHEN
 
The Logical answer? He was lead by the Spirit of God and He was in constant communion with His Father:
 Yes I just knew you would have to bring in the spiritual and the mystical to try to explain away this enigmatic, problematic, ambiguous anomalous biblical story about the wonder of resurrection. 

Your problem is you do not understand what is meant by "raised from the dead"

So you have made a big mountain out of a molehill. 
  You would just love those reading here to believe that. You still have explained part one, to my mind.

 

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Your first point ignores the text:
All his points ignore the text.

Really? You can't tell that Stephen is just a flamer? And a clumsy, silly one at that?
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"And There are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." John :(21:25)

Indeed There were: such as,
 
To Jesus and his party all those around them and outside his circle were referred to as the dead. This then should begin to explain the meaning of “raising” performed by Jesus and co. It is that simple.
It was part of latter stages of an initiation to one of the higher ranks of the Jesus movement called the - Living. The living was a movement not unlike the Jewish Essenes(which Jesus and the Baptist are also believed to have belonged to) but slightly more liberal.
 
In layman's terms if you weren’t one of them, you were "dead". To be one of them- the living -  you had to be"raised from the dead" (and usually rich) which Lazarus and his family was - Funny how Jesus’ entire close inner circle just happens to be rich & connected.
Lower ranks were known as water, lepers, and the poor (who incipiently was a secret reference to the Essene community at Qumran) and by a few other titles of lower rank.
 
 For instance; story of Jesus’ first  so called Miracle, water into wine  is simply the equivalent of the saying  “making a silk purse out of a sows ear”;  i.e. improving on something, making something better than it was before from something inferior. 
But it appears on close reading of these scriptures that Jesus was going around and “raising”any Tom Dick or Lazarus into the movement. In fact he was doing it en masse and to the annoyance of the authorities and John the Baptist.
Christians have been duped by their church fathers sometimes inadvertently but mostly intentionally.
 
People Reading and or studying the New Testament in the 21st century have a lot more information to go on than those studying just 50 years ago. We have the Dead Sea Scrolls containing nearly a thousand manuscripts that explains many of the enigmatic,anomalous and ambiguous verses in the scriptures. And explain just who many of the biblical New Testament characters were. There is also the Nag Hammadi findof 1945. There are also the so called Lost Gospels (which were more likely hidden) of many of the New Testament players such as Judas Iscariot, Mary Magdalene.There is also the original Gospel of Thomas that does not even mention the death and the resurrection of Jesus? and Marks orginal has Lazarus very much alive in the "tomb" waiting to be "raised". 
 Faith is one thing. Blind faith is another.
 
The Myth of Christ has served us well pope Leo X (1475-1521)


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“And came they to Bethany, and a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And coming she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him “son of David, have mercy on me”. But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straight away a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the Tomb. And straight away, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, loved him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looked upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days, Jesus, Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan”. Mark. The Secret Gospel.





“Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, let us also go, that we may die with him”.John:11-16.
Makes a lot more sense  now doesn't it. It should now be obvious to any open minded and level headed reader as to  what  exactly it was that "doubting" Thomas  was suggesting. He simply wanted  to be "raised" to a higher status or rank than just a mere foot soldier of the lower ranks of Jesus' movement..

Morton smith professor of ancient history , tell us:

-“such initiations and their accompanying rituals were common enough in Palestine in Jesus’ time. They often entailed a symbolic death and rebirth, which were also called by those names: sequestration in the tomb which became the womb for the acolyte’s rebirth; a rite, which is now called baptism a symbolic immersion into water; a cup of wine, which was identified with the blood of the prophet or magician presiding over the ceremony. By drinking from such a cup, the disciple consummated a symbolic union with his teacher, the former becoming mystically ‘one’ with the latter. Significantly enough, it is precisely in these terms that St Paul explains the purpose of baptism. And Jesus himself uses the same term at the last supper as Professor Smith points out, Jesus’ career is very similar to those other magicians, healers, wonder workers and miracle of the period”7.We read further from the New Testament that Jesus raises Lazarus;


Professor Smith is one of many learned  scholars and highly educated authors who subscribe to the point that "raising the dead" was simply part of a more complicated initiation ceremony ..


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Post 6: 

...Jesus not being able to make up His mind is not what the narrative tells us. - ME
Wrong that is what it clearly suggests. I say it appears that he couldn’t make up his mind because : 1st, he said Lazarus would not die. Then he said Lazarus was “sleeping”.  “Sleeping” is put down to the disciples not understanding that when Jesus said “sleeping” what he actually meant was  Dead!  No these silly stupid illiterate disciples didn't understand the difference between only sleeping and DEAD!. I see.This is after he had told his disciples categorically, that Lazarus’ sickness was not life threatening. - STEPHEN
No, you are wrong on both accounts. Verse four explains the reason He did not go at once to Lazarus. If He went immediately He would not demonstrate His power to resurrect. The purpose was for His glory and the glory of God that He tarried. Lazarus' death was not his final outcome, for Jesus was going to resurrect him to the glory of God. 

John Calvin states:
4.Now Jesus, having heard this, said, This sickness is not to death. He intended by this reply to free his disciples from anxiety, that they might not take it amiss, when they saw him giving himself so little concern about the danger of his friend. That they might not be alarmed, therefore, about the life of Lazarus, he declares that the disease is not deadly, and even promises that it will be an additional occasion of promoting his own glory. Though Lazarus died, yet as Christ soon afterwards restored him to life, he now declares, looking to this result, that the disease is not to death

Adam Clarke's commentary:
Verse 4 
This sickness is not unto death - Not to final privation of life at this time; but a temporary death shall be now permitted, that the glory of God may appear in the miracle of his resurrection. 
https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/commentaries/acc/john-11.php#.W67fKGhKhPY

The Expositors Greek Testament:

“This illness is not to death, death is not the end towards which it is making. But that Jesus knew that death had already taken place (John 11:6 and John 11:17) or was imminent is evident from the following clause, but He knew what He would do (John 6:6) and that death was not to be the final result of this illness. The illness and death were for the sake of glorifying God (cf. John 9:3)...This is further explained in the clause “that the Son of God may be glorified by means of it,” i.e., by means of this illness; cf. John 13:31. “In two ways; because the miracle (1) would lead many to believe that He was the Messiah; 

Many others express the same sentiment. They understand the context.

John Gill's Commentary:
this sickness is not unto death;
it was to issue in death, but not in death which was to continue, or under which Lazarus was to continue till the general resurrection; for though he should die, yet he should be so quickly restored again to life, that it scarcely deserved the name of death. The Jews distinguish between sickness and sickness; there are some that are sick, the greater part of whom are, 
"for life"; and there are others that are "sick", the greater part of whom are, "for death" , or are sick unto death, whose sickness issues in death; but this of Lazarus's was not to be unto death, at least not finally:
but for the glory of God;
of his power and goodness in raising him again:
that the Son of God might be glorified thereby;
that is, that his glory, as the Son of God, might be made manifest in the resurrection of him from the dead; see ( John 2:11).




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@Stephen
Yes and for all his tarrying he got it wrong. Lazarus was dead. Even one of the women commented that if he had come sooner he may have saved Lazarus; indeed he actually says he wouldn’t have died:
 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
... 'So' in verse 6 refers back to the reason of verse 4.
And Lazarus DID die and Jesus was wrong. - STEPHEN
Jesus did not get it wrong. Lazarus's death was for the glory of God. Lazarus death was not permanent. The purpose was so that He would demonstrate the power of God and resurrect Lazarus. Thus He could say, Lazarus is not dead or the sickness is not to death. The purpose of the whole narrative is focused on this truth of the resurrection and living in Christ, not dying.


 ....14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,
He did, didn’the? And very clearly and plainly. So plain in fact there is no room for mistranslation or misinterpretation even into day’s modern English language,DEAD means DEAD! Which contradicts his earlier statement that Lazarus’“sickness” was not until death, doesn’t it?
...15 and I am glad for your sakes that I Was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.” 

 Believe what?  - STEPHEN

It shows that Jesus has the power over death, and those who die, even though they die, will live again (resurrection). 

Here is the central message of the chapter:

John 11:24-26 (NASB)
24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Here it is again: "he who believes in Me will live even if he dies."

As many have said, death was not Lazarus' final outcome and Jesus was looking to this outcome.
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...Thus,Thomas could say, "Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.” If Lazarus was dead and Jesus was going to raise him, then Thomas would reason that if he died Jesus could do the same, per Jesus'previous statements: - ME

Oh stop it. Why in the world would this man want to die and encourage others to die along with him? And you have missed the point that Jesus had showed no intention or inclination before hand or mentioned anything about resurrecting Lazarus from the dead.   He Didn't say:  "Lazarus is only sick but if he does die I will bring him back to life, so let us not be concerned or worry ourselves and extend our little break another two days- DID HE?
 And There is no mention whatsoever that they did DIE along with Lazarus either is there? - STEPHEN

You stop it. He was willing to die because he believed death would not be his final end if he lived for Christ. Jesus had told His disciples that He had the words of life and death. They believed this. They did not desert Him because of His teachings (John 6:60-69). 

John 5:23-25 (NASB)
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Two Resurrections
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

Matthew 16:24 [ Discipleship Is Costly ] Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

I believe Thomas is expressing his desire to follow Jesus and is not afraid to follow him through persecution to death, which is what the Jewish chief priests threaten him later in the chapter. 

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Jesus did not get it wrong. Lazarus's death was for the glory of God. Lazarus death was not permanent. 
 
I can see why it is that people like you unfortunately do eventually get mocked. You say Lazarus’ death was for the Glory of God. What does that actually mean? And why Lazarus? Why not  the widowed Mrs.Pie Maker down the lane struggling to make a living for her family but still had served her god all her life?
 Was it because she wasn’t rich enough and didn't have a single influential friend in the Palace or the Sanhedrin Council or in the conclave of the Priesthood. Because this is exactly the pool of influential people from which Jesus gathered his disciples.
 
It shows that Jesus Has the power over death, and those who die, even though they die, will live again (resurrection). 
 
That is simply a robotic, indoctrinated response based PURELY on faith.
 
Here is the central message of the chapter:“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
And when was the last day? It seems it was the last day just happened to be the very same day Lazarus was “raised” then doesn’t, it, you silly man? Or was there another “last day”?
 But it couldn’t have been could it. Because It appears life went on in that part of the world even after Jesus was “DEAD”.
 
You are doing what all faithful do; you are trying to explains away these explainable with other unexplainable verse from the same source.
 
Here it is again: "he who believes in Me will live even if he dies."
 
Andhere it is again: you are basing all of your responses on faith. It doesn’t work. These questions and queries I am highlighting need good, sound positive answers.You are simply telling me I have to “believe”, but nothing you have said thus far has been convincing enough for me to “believe”, at all. In fact you have furthered my conviction that there is another story underneath this false narrative you call the “gospel truth”. It is nothing of the sort and couldn’t be further from“the truth”
 
I believe Thomas is expressing his desire to follow Jesus and is not afraid to follow him through persecution to death, 
 
Do you now?>>> “not afraid to follow him through persecution to death”<<< you say.  I see.  Well putting aside the fact that Thomas is only famous for “DOUBTING”the resurrection”, where was he come the crucifixion?
 
Was he at the foot of the cross praying for Jesus while Jesus himself was  “DOUBTING” his father and  pleading:
"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
 
NO! he wasn't.

He ran away with all the other wanted Galilean zealots who had been forced into hiding, including Lazarus.

“But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also [as well as Jesus] to death” John 12:10.

 Wake UP! There is beyond doubt another story going on here.

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Here is the central message of the chapter:“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
And when was the last day? It seems it was the last day just happened to be the very same day Lazarus was “raised” then doesn’t, it, you silly man? Or was there another “last day”?
 But it couldn’t have been could it. Because It appears life went on in that part of the world even after Jesus was “DEAD”.
 
You are doing what all faithful do; you are trying to explains away these UN - explainable with other UN - explainable verse from the same source.
 

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"Again, this reinforces Thomas' understanding of
dying
that He would be raised again."

That isn't dying and where does Jesus say he will raise Lazarus.
The disease will not result in death then Jesus didn't raise him from death, it was a con job for the gullible.

"Jesus did not get it wrong. Lazarus's death was for the glory of God. Lazarus death was not permanent."

How many instances of non permanent death do you know of? Mentioning deaths declared by doctors don't count, I require deaths declared by your god and corroborated by witnesses.

"everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die."

Well he got that wrong, as evidenced by everyone he spoke to or did none of them believe?
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@Stephen
Jesus did not get it wrong. Lazarus's death was for the glory of God. Lazarus death was not permanent. 
 
I can see why it is that people like you unfortunately do eventually get mocked. You say Lazarus’ death was for the Glory of God. What does that actually mean? And why Lazarus? Why not  the widowed Mrs.Pie Maker down the lane struggling to make a living for her family but still had served her god all her life?
 Was it because she wasn’t rich enough and didn't have a single influential friend in the Palace or the Sanhedrin Council or in the conclave of the Priesthood. Because this is exactly the pool of influential people from which Jesus gathered his disciples.
 - STEPHEN
"People like me?" What kind of person is that? You are making a sweeping generalization because I am a Christians, and your view is that all Christians are mocked.

I stated that Lazarus' death was for the glory of God because the text reads just that. 
4 But when Jesus heard this, He said, “This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.”

The sickness did not end in death, for Lazarus was raised to life. That was not his final fate until the resurrection of the dead. Jesus showed, to the glory of God, that He had the power of life and death. What is more, His message was/is that those who die, even though they die, they live. Martha knew there was a resurrection of the dead, so she knew Lazarus would be one day be raised to life again. She did not think it would happen that day.

24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 

I will explain the last day reference further down in this post, but the points I want you to notice FROM THE TEXT is that she believed in a day when the dead would be resurrected, and that resurrection was to everlasting life, not this temporary physical life we experience here on earth. 

The next point I want you to notice FROM THE TEXT is that Jesus says that those who believe in Him "will live even if he dies." Not only this but those who believe in Him, even though they die (physically) they will never die (spiritually to God). The death that Adam experienced in the Garden was not a physical death. That came later when God barred humanity from the tree of life in the Garden. If they had eaten from that tree, Scripture tells the reader they would have lived forever. Scripture also tells the reader that on the very day that Adam ate the fruit he would die. THIS IS A SPIRITUAL DEATH. We are told that very day that he was barred from the Garden and that close relationship he and Eve shared with God until this point in time.

Genesis 2:15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” 

So, there are two deaths, not one. There is a physical death and there is a spiritual death. There is a spiritual reality taught in the Bible, just like there is a natural or physical reality. 

1 Corinthians 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

If you have not been regenerated by God then how are you going to understand the spiritual reality conveyed in the Bible? Can you see the types and symbols on the pages of the OT points to Jesus Christ? I believe, for the most part, you are blind to these spiritual truths. 

It shows that Jesus Has the power over death, and those who die, even though they die, will live again (resurrection). - ME
 
That is simply a robotic, indoctrinated response based PURELY on faith. - STEPHEN
 
Yes, it is on faith - faith in the text and its message. It is reiterating from the biblical text. It is taking the topic of the resurrection presented in this chapter and also using the lessons learned from other references, other chapters, other gospels, other epistles, and combining the teaching for a better understanding. 

Continue with next post

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@Stephen

Here is the central message of the chapter:“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” - ME
And when was the last day? It seems it was the last day just happened to be the very same day Lazarus was “raised” then doesn’t, it, you silly man? Or was there another “last day”?
 But it couldn’t have been could it. Because It appears life went on in that part of the world even after Jesus was “DEAD”. - STEPHEN 

The "last days" is a term used frequently in both testaments, and in the OT it can refer to other nations or the nation of Israel specifically. In the NT, to my knowledge, it speaks to the nation of Israel and the prophecies that primarily concern Israel. The "last day" is a reference to THE day in which God would judge the living and the dead and the righteous will be granted everlasting life and the unrighteous would be separated from His presence forevermore. This judgment is a judgment when the Lord Jesus Christ would return. That coming as seen through Preterist's eyes (can be justified), was a coming in judgment, not a physical coming, and happened in AD 70 with the abrogation of the OT ritual and worship system (OT economy). 

Other terms that are used in conjunction with "the last days" are the last day, the day of wrath, the day of judgment, that day, the day, the end of the age, the time of judgment, THIS GENERATION, and others.


Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB)
God’s Final Word in His Son
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

The letter/epistle to the Hebrews was concerned with those who had professed Jesus as Lord then turning back to a dead religion and a soon to be dead covenant (Hebrews 8:13). These Jewish professors of Christ were being convinced by the Judaizers to turn back to OT worship. The author shows these Jews the superiority of Jesus against the ritualized system of worship that we call the OT economy. Notice in the passage quoted that God spoke through the prophets. Who did God send prophets to? He sent them to the Mosaic Covenant people who were being disobedient to Him by chasing after foreign gods and the worship of idols. God continually warned them through the prophets and teachers He sent to them to turn back to them, finally sending His Son, whom they crucified. I believe the last days is a forty-year period in which God gives Israel to repent and turn to Him through the ONE means He has given them - His Son. John the Baptist was the last of these OT prophets,and first of the NT prophets, sent as the Elijah to come. 

Hebrews 3:7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 “Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

The Peril of Unbelief
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

The last day would be the last day of that generation, the day when the "Book of Life" was opened. 

Matthew 24:34 (NASB)
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

(i.e., judgments previously mentioned along with all the signs)

Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB)
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Everything spoken of yet unfulfilled in the OT and NT had to be accomplished before the Law of Moses was met completely and taken out of the way for believers. To show this was done, God made it evident by destroying the very temple worship and atonement system these people relied on to make atonement for their sins (i.e., animal sacrifices).
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"Again, this reinforces Thomas' understanding of dying that He would be raised again."  _ ME

That isn't dying and where does Jesus say he will raise Lazarus.
The disease will not result in death then Jesus didn't raise him from death, it was a con job for the gullible. - DISGUSTED

The whole purpose of raising Lazarus was to show He had the power of life and death in Him, and it confirms His teaching of John 5:25-26 with a demonstration of that power.


"Jesus did not get it wrong. Lazarus's death was for the glory of God. Lazarus death was not permanent." - ME


How many instances of non-permanent death do you know of? Mentioning deaths declared by doctors don't count, I require deaths declared by your god and corroborated by witnesses. - DISGUSTED

Personally, I have never seen one but I believe that Jesus has power over life and death because He is our Creator. I know of the biblical accounts plus I have heard of people having near-death experiences, where they were considered clinically dead and revived either by defibulators or resuscitation. What was amazing about Lazarus was that he was in a tomb for a number of days.  

"everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die." - 


Well he got that wrong, as evidenced by everyone he spoke to or did none of them believe? - STEPHEN


Here again, you do not understand that the Bible speaks of two types of death - spiritual and physical death. 

There is evidence from the Scripture that Jesus saved the twelve apostles, which would include Paul since Judas was never considered one who would be saved. 

Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

John 17:7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the on of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

So His death was for the purpose of saving them and all who believe and place their trust in Him. They would not see death, for believing in Jesus results in regeneration to new life. Paul writes of this:

2 Corinthians 5:17 
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

How could Paul say that he had died with Christ when he was still alive?

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

He meant that the life he lived he lived to the glory of Christ. It was Christ working in him to bring glory to God. 

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What is it that convinces me that what I have posted above at post 8 and 9 are more truthful and more accurate concerning “raising the dead” than those accounts put to us by these gospellers?

Well, the gospels of course.

It appears to be that, as quick as one can be “raised” from amongst the dead into the Jesus movement, one can be just as quickly expelled from it. That is to say,one can be “raised from the dead” and then dead again for some rule breaking misdemeanour,as did happen twice to a lovely couple named Ananias and Sapphira his wife, according to Acts 5:1-11.KJV.

Read this account carefully, it is quite an amazing story.
Acts 5:1-11 King James Version (KJV)
5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said,Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained,was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young menarose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered to her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead,and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
 So this couple above are dead now simply for holding back a little money for themselves instead of donating all their income to the movement.

AND, if that isn’t enough to convince anyone about this strange ritual of “raising dead people” back into life, (and then throwing them back onto the “dead” pile) I Believe that this verse from Matthew supports perfectly my belief at post above, concerning Jesus’ inner circle called the - living - and anyone outside of it being referred to as “the dead”. It concerns man who wants the day off to bury his father.
 
“And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead”.Matthew 8:21-22.KJV 
 I'd like to see how that happens. Yet it is never explained how the dead can actually "bury the dead". 

Anyone, I mean anyone who is level headed and open minded would be absolutely stunned by what is truly an absolute anomalous and truly an enigmatic statement from Jesus Himself.

There can be only one explanation for what appears on the face of it, to be  -  absolute and senseless nonsense coming from the lips of Jesus himself:

From my  post 8 above>
To Jesus and his party all those around them and outside his circle were referred to as the dead. This then should begin to explain the meaning of “raising” performed by Jesus and co. It is that simple.
It was part of latter stages of an initiation to one of the higher ranks of the Jesus movement called the - Living. The living was a movement not unlike the Jewish Essenes(which Jesus and the Baptist are also believed to have belonged to) but slightly more liberal. 
 
In layman's terms if you weren’t one of them, you were "dead". To be one of them- the living -  you had to be"raised from the dead" (and usually rich) which Lazarus and his family was - Funny how Jesus’ entire close inner circle just happens to be rich & connected.
Lower ranks were known as water, lepers, and the poor (who incipiently was a secret reference to the Essene community at Qumran) and by a few other titles of lower rank.
 
Two different gospellers giving different accounts about the condition of the same  so called "dead girl".Jarius' daughter

Mark: and when he saw him, he fell at his feet, And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.

 Matthew: and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
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17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” 

So, there are two deaths, not one. There is a physical death and there is a spiritual death. There is a spiritual reality taught in the Bible, just like there is a natural or physical reality. 

Where is this spiritual death mentioned here?
When did it happen?
How do you know?
You just fabricated it?
Is that adding to the bible as you are admonished not too?

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It seems even though this girl was "raised" before their own eyes they simply didn't understand what "raising of dead people " was all about".

Mark 9:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
My they are confused lot. One minute sick, then sleeping the dead, then raised from the dead, then dropping down dead again.. I think I can understand why it was that they found it all very it was all very confusing.



Hecame and raised her up by gentlytaking her hand. Then the fever left her and she began toserve them. (Mark 1:31, NET)

Sothey kept thematter to themselves, questioning what this rising from the dead might mean.(Mark 9:10, ESV)
 

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17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” 

So, there are two deaths, not one. There is a physical death and there is a spiritual death. There is a spiritual reality taught in the Bible, just like there is a natural or physical reality. 

Where is this spiritual death mentioned here?
When did it happen?
How do you know?
You just fabricated it?
Is that adding to the bible as you are admonished not too?

Where is it mentioned? It is a logical deduction. Adam did not die physically that day, yet he was barred from the Garden and no longer walked with God (i.e., relationship). In fact, they were barred from the Garden and from taking of the Tree of Life and living forever on that day.

We are told over and over in the Bible that God is Spirit and that we all have had our spiritual relationship with God altered by that first sin. Humanity did not know the difference between good and evil (Adam only knew good) until Adam disobeyed God's good instruction. Adam was the first relativist. 

***

The spiritual separation happened on the day Adam disobeyed God and then he and Eve hid from God because they, at that point, knew they had done evil and set in course a life of being able to choose evil as well as good, but never being able to choose ONLY good. 

***

I know because the focus of so many biblical verses is this separation between Adam/humanity and God that happened in the Garden.

But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

We know that we are made alive SPIRITUALLY to God with the new birth.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

It is a spiritual birth spoken of. 

for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

We know from many verses that we enter into a spiritual birth when we truly believe in Jesus and repent of our sins against God.

So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
 
***

No, I didn't fabricate it. I relied on the words of Scripture in understanding it.
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#23
Stephen
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@PGA2.0
"People like me?" What kind of person is that?
Emotion before substance.

Explain why we have people just "dropping down dead" for not paying their fees to the movement?

And can you enlighten us as to what "let the dead bury the dead" actually means and how one dead person or persons go about burying someone else who is dead?


“And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead”.Matthew 8:21-22.KJV  


Acts 5:1-11 King James Version (KJV)
5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said,Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained,was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young menarose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered to her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead,and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.


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@Stephen
"People like me?" What kind of person is that?
Emotion before substance.


You were the one who used emotion by attacking the man (me) rather than the argument. That is a cop-out. I can document it many times in your posts. The irony of that is it is you who are being emotional.



Explain why we have people just "dropping down dead" for not paying their fees to the movement?

No idea what you mean here?


And can you enlighten us as to what "let the dead bury the dead" actually means and how one dead person or persons go about burying someone else who is dead?


“And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead”.Matthew 8:21-22.KJV  


The dead are those who are spiritually dead to God. They don't hear His voice speaking to them because they don't want to. There was a more important truth here. Jesus gives spiritual life to those who trust in Him. This man's father was already dead and those burying him were spiritually dead. Following Jesus would give the opportunity to find true life and the invitation was to find that life.
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Where is it mentioned? It is a logical deduction. Adam did not die physically that day,
You read it here first folks Adam didn't die on that day and this bogus spiritual death wasn't mentioned it was fabricated.

Humanity did not know the difference between good and evil (Adam only knew good) until Adam disobeyed God
It's not possible to "disobey" if you don't know right from wrong ie good from evil. If you don't know that obey is right and disobey is wrong then whichever behaviour is neutral.
This spiritual death that you've concocted is a rather pathetic defense of the absurdity professed by the ignorant author of genesis. The fact that people like you can swallow that twaddle is mind boggling.
How many times is spiritual death mention in the OT?
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#26
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You were the one who used emotion by attacking the man (me) rather than the argument. 
 
I haven’t made a single personal attack towards you. Stop telling lies simply because you're backed into a corner by your own unbelievable scriptures.
What I have done is highlight these unfathomable verses that you have tried to explain away with more unfathomable verses from the same source material. Get it into your head: That Simply isn’t going to work.

No idea what you mean here?
 
So you don’t know the scripture. I have pointed it out TWICE to you.and you have avoided it twice. I Believe these verses prove me right and you WRONG! here it is yet again!
 
Acts 5:1-11 King James Version(KJV)
5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter Said,Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained,was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the youngmenarose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered to her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door,and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she downstraightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in,and found her dead,and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
 
So then, it appears to be that, as quick as one can be “raised” from amongst the dead into the Jesus movement, onecan be just as quickly expelled from it. That is to say,one can be “raised from the dead” and then dead again for some rule breaking misdemeanour, as did happen twice to a lovely couple named Ananias and Sapphira his wife, according to Acts 5:1-11.KJV.
 
 
The dead are those who are spiritually dead to God. 
 
THERE YOU SEE!  You have had to admit it. I had to drag that out of you after all you filibustering and evasion!!!! Or are you now going to tell us that there are many types of "DEATH" to explain away this ridiculous statement from jesus himself.  
 
These are people ARE NOT DEAD AT ALL ARE THEY? They are simple people like me who have not been “raised” into the family of the movement from amongst the "DEAD".. To You and your god I am DEAD because I don’t “see “what itis you believe you “SEE”.  I am spiritually faithless/DEAD.

This is also what is meant by “making the blind man see”.

 I am simply living on the outside of the circle of the family that is spiritually faithful, whatever "spiritually faithful" is actually supposed to mean.  
Many of the disciples were "DEAD"; they were kept purposely “DEAD”  “for they didn't understand the scripture”. In other words they were of lower rank, therefore not allowed to know what was going on, IN SECRET. This is why Jesus had secret meeting after dark, told people not to say what he had done  or who he was. Told his disciples to be snide and two faced. Everything was secret. And this tells me there is something else going on.

Jesus was no fluffy bunny as much as you would like to believe he was. He preached one thing in the earshot   of Romans and another behind their backs to his followers.  " turn the other cheek"   go by a sword and this explains truly explains away may of the contradictory verses that you take at face value and deny they even contradict one another. 

The list of secrecy in these scriptures more or less explains why everything had to be kept secret. 

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@disgusted

Where is it mentioned? It is a logical deduction. Adam did not die physically that day, - ME
You read it here first folks Adam didn't die on that day and this bogus spiritual death wasn't mentioned it was fabricated. - DISGUSTED

Are you suggesting Adam died physically on the day he ate the fruit?

The biblical text makes it very clear that God said on the day Adam ate the fruit he would die. We learn over and over again that Adam was separated from God spiritually and that mans spiritual condition is that he must be born spiritually to either enter the heavenly kingdom or see it. Since you choose to believe otherwise, end of discussion. Believe what you want. I can only reiterate the same thoughts so many times before it gets futile.
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@Stephen

You were the one who used emotion by attacking the man (me) rather than the argument. 
 
I haven’t made a single personal attack towards you. Stop telling lies simply because you're backed into a corner by your own unbelievable scriptures. 
What I have done is highlight these unfathomable verses that you have tried to explain away with more unfathomable verses from the same source material. Get it into your head: That Simply isn’t going to work.

Your emotional highly charged and suggestive language is an attack against the Christian to ridicule their belief system, used to sway people to the counter-point of view with assertion after assertion:

Post #1: strangest story, vague, ambiguous and at one time just plain silly, Jesus not being able to make up his mind and not seeming too bothered about this person he “loved,” suicidal followers and confused women, hints that it all could have been a staged affair, But not before saying this enigmatic and outrageous statement.

Post #2:  nothing seems to explain at all Jesus’ carelessness and indifference.

Post #5: No these silly stupid illiterate disciples didn't understand the difference between only sleeping and DEAD, Oh stop it.

Post #13:   I can see why it is that people like you unfortunately do eventually get mocked.

Post #14:  you silly man.

Post # 23: Emotion before substance,

Post # 26: I haven’t made a single personal attack towards you. Stop telling lies simply because you're backed into a corner by your own unbelievable scriptures.

You made two personal attacks against me and you continually insulted Christians as stupid and simple. Your whole language towards the Christian faith is emotionally charged and highly suggestive, also towards the Scriptures as beyond belief. 
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Your emotional highly charged and suggestive language is an attack against the Christian to ridicule their belief system, used to sway people to the counter-point of view with assertion after assertion:
 
Your Opinion. I highlight a verse or two, you try to explain away and then I debunk your explanation. You don’t like it.  That is not attacking. I am simply highlighting and bringing into question the scriptures.
 
 
Post#1: strangest story, vague, ambiguous and at one time just plain silly, Jesus not being able to make up his mind and not seeming too bothered about this person he “loved,” suicidal followers and confused women, hints that it all could have been a staged affair, But Not before saying this enigmatic and outrageous statement.
 
Yes all true.
 
Post#2:  nothing seems to explain at all Jesus’ carelessness and indifference.
 
True again
 
Post#5: No these silly stupid illiterate disciples didn't understand the difference between only sleeping and DEAD, Oh stop it.
 Read that slowly. This is why I asked you to “stop it”.
 
Post#13:   I can see why it is that people like you unfortunately do eventually get mocked.
 
Indeed. I can. I haven’t mocked you. I Have simply said I can see why people such as you are mocked. Because of the silly explanations you give in an attempt to explain away these enigmatic and confusing ambiguous scriptures. And I stick by that.
 
 You have even now had to resort to telling us that there are two types of death to explain away these “raisings from the dead”verses. I happen to half agree. What I dispute and believe I have proved was that these “DEATHS” or not “DEATHS” at all in the natural sense. They are symbolic“deaths”.

Post #14:  you silly man
.


Your responses do make you come across as silly at times and almost pleading, to the point of downright silliness,to be honest.. I believe you are silly in some of your responses. If that has upset so much, I can only say, deary me, there, there, never mind, rub it better,grow up. I have been called a lot worse on this forum.

Post # 23: Emotion before substance,
 
Indeed, and you have shown that many actions, but I can accept that,. I can also accept your dismissal of my points and argument. It doesn’t hurt me. I am not offended.
 
Post# 26: I haven’t made a single personal attack towards you. Stop telling lies simply because you're backed into a corner by your own unbelievable scriptures.
You are telling lies. I haven’t made ONE SINGLE attack on you personally, your just being emotional and silly.<<<<<that is not an attack, it is a clear observation anyone can see.
 
 
You made two personal attacks against me and you continually insulted Christians as stupid and simple.
 
No I am suggested the THE SCRIPTURES give the impression that the disciples concerned are backward and illiterate andare easily convinced.
 
 
 Your whole language towards the Christian Faith is emotionally charged and highly suggestive, also towards the Scriptures beyond belief. 
 I wouldn’t say “emotionally charged” because I simply don’t care what you believe. My problem I have  is with the scriptures and these gospellers not telling  the whole gospel truth. AndI believe it is this that is making you “emotionally charged”........ and the fact that I just maybe causing others to look at these so called "gospel truths" with a 21ST CENTURY  eye and mind and not a closed one forced onto them by some  preacher stuck in 1st century Palestine. .

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Are you suggesting Adam died physically on the day he ate the fruit?
Most certainly not, that is a claim made by christians in a vain attempt at absolving their god of lying.
The biblical text makes it very clear that God said on the day Adam ate the fruit he would die.
And as the story goes on to tell us, that was a lie.
Adam was separated from God spiritually and that mans spiritual condition is that he must be born spiritually to either enter the heavenly kingdom or see it
The bible doesn't say that you are making it up, but you have to fabricate lies so that you can convince yourself.
Define spiritually.