do you think those who follow christus victor are condemned?

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#1
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christus victor is a theory of atonement that says love concquers death, and that Jesus in dying defeated death and sin for mankind. this is in contrast to the penal substitution model which says that God needs an infinite sacrifice to apprease his wrath and the only sacrifice that can do that, is Jesus dying. 

if you read the bible carefully, both theories are plausible. academics say penal substitution didn't even start until anslem and a thousand years after Jesus. before that, christus victor language was used and understood. 

yet, when you read a lot of 'sinner's prayers' and baiscs about what must be beleived to be saved, a lot of times it has somehting to do with that sacrifice that is put in terms of Jesus taking our punishment. at least half the time noteably there isn't that jargon. no sinners praryers or ideas of what must be believed in faith to be saved, is the same. 

did the early church just not understand it? are those who believe in christus victor condemned? are they at least just wrong? 

what say you?
#2
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"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."


"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight"


If your faith is in transient things, created things... your faith is in death. If you identify with death, what actually survives? The second death is the death of death and all things hidden, when everything is complete as it is.

So eternal life is abiding in The Truth. 


"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that yelove one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."



Yet, at the same time...


"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord"



#3
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The second death is such a pathetic godist apology.
Show me a second birth and then a second death. Ever seen a dead body?
Where was the fictional Adam's "second death"
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@linate
condemned to what for what?
#5
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@disgusted

It's really quite simple.

You will die. Everything you've ever done in your life will crumble with time. Everything you know and love will be obscure. Your life is a vapor. Everything in this world? Sandcastles.

What is truly eternal? 

The Truth.

And everything was made by and through The Truth.

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth"

So if your faith is in anything else in this world, your faith is in something that is subject to time and death. Only The Truth conquers time and death.

Abide in THE TRUTH. The creator rather than the creature.










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@Mopac
Only The Truth conquers time and death

Are time and death not part of reality then? Your definition of reality strays further and further from mine.

everything was made by and through The Truth.

How have you determined that reality made anything rather than things simply existing as part of reality with  no act of creation necessary?
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@secularmerlin
Time and death have dominion over you. The Truth has dominion over time and death.

Clearly you were created through natural processes. What is your issue?






#8
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@Mopac
What is your issue?
I still do not understand how you have made some of the determinations about reality that you base your claims on.

The Truth has dominion over time and death.
This is a good example. I don't know what you mean by dominion over. The truth is that we will both die and nothing can stop it. It is further true that if there is any life after death it is not observable to us. That makes any reference to any afterlife perforce pure conjecture.

As you have said reality is what it is regardless of our understanding of it or our desires about it and no amount of not wanting to die will preserve your conciousness once your physical brain ceases to function. (Unless of course you can demonstrate that conciousness can exist without a physical brain. I am unaware of any such example)

Clearly you were created through natural processes.
That does not necessitate a creator. You used the word creator specifically. You said "The creator not the creature" not "the natural processes not the creature".
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@secularmerlin
These truths you are talking about don't exist on their own. The fact that we all die and nothing can stop it is indeed a truth, but it is not The Truth. It is not The Ultimate Reality. If everything is dead and there is nothing left to die, it is no longer true that we all will die. It is true that we all will die, but the fact that we all die is not The Eternal Truth.

Death is very much related to time. There is no death without time. The Ultimate Reality does not change with time. It does not die. Therefore, God is lord over time. Time is not lord over God.




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@Mopac
The fact that we all die and nothing can stop it is indeed a truth, but it is not The Truth
Then The Truth is not merely that which is true and you are engaged in an equivocation fallacy when you claim that denying The Truth is tantamount to denying the existence of any truth.

#11
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@secularmerlin
Not at all, I am not making an equivocation fallacy. Without The Truth, there can be no truths.

I am not actually making a fallacy. But you are making a fallacy if you deny Ultimate Reality while simultaneously believing that there are truths. 

The Truth is the very essence of what makes something true taken to its finality. 

A truth may die, but The Truth doesn't die with it. 




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@Mopac
It's really quite simple.
You will die.
#13
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@disgusted
Don't care

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@Mopac
Oh but you do that's why you have and maintain this childish belief in life everlasting, if you didn't care you wouldn't need that fairy tale crutch.
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@Mopac
And the truth is that before humans invented gods, no gods existed.
And still don't.
#16
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@disgusted
You are the only one talking about gods.

How telling.




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@Mopac
Then your different placeholders are meaningless, as I have already stated.
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@disgusted
What I say might have more meaning to you if you adopted a more teachable attitude. 

You show no charity, so you can't understand what I'm saying.

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@Mopac
What you mean is that I show crystal clearly your inability to address reality, which is why you are now denying your belief in gods.
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@disgusted
K bud
#21
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They always run away.
#22
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"Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

#23
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@disgusted
They always run away.
And somehow you never get a clue.

36 days later

#24
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@linate


christus victor is a theory of atonement that says love concquers death, and that Jesus in dying defeated death and sin for mankind. this is in contrast to the penal substitution model which says that God needs an infinite sacrifice to apprease his wrath and the only sacrifice that can do that, is Jesus dying. 

Love did conquer death. The love of Jesus Christ on our behalf (substitution) conquered it that whoever would believe would have life. If God is pure and holy and God has been wronged what payment can satisfy His justice? The atonement sacrifice was always without blemish, also pure and holy. It is a picture of Jesus Christ who lived the life we can't before God. The payment for sin was death, separation from God.

Leviticus 17:11 (NASB)
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’

The blood by reason of THE life that makes atonement!

Hebrews 9 presents more of this truth:

6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 

Just like in the OT sacrificial system, the High Priest (Jesus) enters the TRUE tabernacle, not just the representation. Notice He presents the blood offering not just for Himself but for the sins of the people. His own blood [representative of His life] was spotless, perfect, and He presents it ON BEHALF of the people to cover their sins. 

Notice that the way into the holy place is not disclosed while the tabernacle in Jerusalem still stood. It was taken out of the way in AD 70. Notice that the Spirit is signifying the present time, and the temple in Jerusalem still stands. I was not taken out of the way until AD 70. There was a transition taking place here during the 40 years ( see Hebrews 3 & 4) betweenChrist'ss ascension and His Second Coming. Hebrews 8:13 also conveys this truth. The time of writing Hebrews is before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The author of Hebrews is writing to Hebraic Christians who are considering turning back to Judaism. The author is showing them and through them us, the supremacy of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant in every way to the Mosaic Covenant. He is warning them not to turn back.


11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Notice who is doing the action here. It is not us. It is God. You will find this theme throughout the whole of the NT. Pay attention to the subject and object of address and you will find that we do not save ourselves in any way. It is a gift of God from first to last.

His blood, He entered, He obtained. So, it is not what you do before God that EARNS you salvation. God creates in us a new spirit and He prepares the good works that come after salvation. Ephesians 2:8-10 expresses these thoughts but once you start paying attention to the subject/object relationship you will see who saves and how gracious and loving God is to those who trust in His sacrifice. What we are helpless to do He does for us!



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@linate
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” 
21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood 
there is no forgiveness.


By His blood, by His lifeblood, shed for those who will believe there is forgiveness!

Again, HE is our Mediator before God. He is our sacrificial offering before God. It is either Him or we stand before God on our own merit. (which I would not want to do.




23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages
He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 

28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Since a man- Adam - sinned against God and separated us from His holy presence, another Man, Jesus Christ (the Second Adam) came into the world to reconcile us. He doesn't enter a man-made representation (which was made according to the pattern) but the real thing to appear for
US. 

Notice again the time frame reference to the consummation of the ages. Jesus, in the Gospel's, speaks of two ages - this age and the age to come. What age did Jesus come to? He came to the age of temple worship and the Mosaic economy. 


Notice also who will bear the sins of many (those who believe and trust Him) which again suggests a substitution. If we trust in Him He bears our sins before God with His one-time sacrifice. Either He bears our sins or we bear our own sins before God. 

So notice as you read your NT who is DOING the action and who are RECEIVING the action. 






#26
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Love conquers death? What does that even mean? Is death (the breakdown of order and expenditure of finite energy stores in the Universe, on the microcosmic level of the breakdown of the human body to the point of total non-operability) a cosmic force that was introduced as a result of man's fall? Is that the big problem? And not the sinful nature of man (which in my opinion was simply exemplified by, rather than caused by, the Fall)? But if sin was the cause of death, then wouldn't the continued existence of sin mean a continuation of death as a natural consequence of such?

A better way of putting it would be "love conquered sin" imo.
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@Swagnarok
Love conquers death? What does that even mean? Is death (the breakdown of order and expenditure of finite energy stores in the Universe, on the microcosmic level of the breakdown of the human body to the point of total non-operability) a cosmic force that was introduced as a result of man's fall? Is that the big problem? And not the sinful nature of man (which in my opinion was simply exemplified by, rather than caused by, the Fall)? But if sin was the cause of death, then wouldn't the continued existence of sin mean a continuation of death as a natural consequence of such?

A better way of putting it would be "love conquered sin" imo.


I don't know who you are addressing.

Love conquers death means,  16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Love conquers sin too! What death are you speaking of, physical death or spiritual death? When Adam sinned in the Garden that very day God told him he would die. He died spiritually to God. God is Spirit. The death Adam died was a separation from God. He was barred from the Garden that very day and no longer "walked" with God in the Garden. Adam was not allowed to eat of the tree of life and live forever either. That tree too was in the Garden.

Jesus came to reconcile us to God. So those who are included in Christ are no longer separated from God. 
#28
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So it would follow that sin, rather than merely an act or way of living that incurs the wrath of an angry God, does itself destroy man and keep him from God. Sin would be something that we needed to be rescued from, rather than forgiven of.
The issue I'd have with this is the fact that Christ did not immediately liberate all humans from sin, but only those who turned to Him, which would seem more consistent with forgiveness, the policy being that He would only forgive those who acknowledged their wrongdoing and petitioned before a Holy God for mercy.

I would say that it's both: we needed to be both forgiven and rescued, because things that we choose also have the consequence of ensnaring us. Because we are ensnared, it's not enough that we seek forgiveness, because by nature we'll just go back to whatever we were like before. We need to be rescued from sin so that we're able to act in a manner that makes it possible to receive forgiveness.

(Note: I posted this before seeing your response to my first post.)