Worker Owned Companies.

Author: Trent0405

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#31
Discipulus_Didicit
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@triangle.128k
I think the false assumption people have here is associating worker-owned companies as some communitarian structure.

Okay... This is a really odd association to make and I have trouble understanding why anyone who speaks English as a first language would make such an association but this theory would explain some of WPs posts.
#32
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@WaterPhoenix
Is triangle right? Are you under the impression that manager is a synonym for owner?

If the answer to the above is yes, quick follow-up questions... Is English your second or your third language and have you ever had a job?

#33
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@fauxlaw
hmmmmmmmmm, well the point if if everyone has too many stocks then the structure will collapse
#34
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Name one organization that doesn't have managers. Name one company that isn't run by workers. Name one company that isn't owned by someone.
our fictional worker-owned company
Is triangle right? Are you under the impression that manager is a synonym for owner?
no, a manager looks over the workers and the owner looks over the managers cause the owner can't control that many workers
Is English your second or your third language and have you ever had a job?
english is my 69th language and i passed out flyers for one of my parent's friends who was running for the county council once


#35
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@WaterPhoenix
if everyone has too many stocks then the structure will collapse
<br>
No, the structure [i.e., the company] does not collapse. If an employee has too much company stock; his own interest in it may fold if the company does, but that's not a fallacy of employee-owned companies; it's a fallacy of individual investment strategy because that person has the majority of his investments in one value. That is the failure of diversification, and that is the risk of the individual, not necessarily the company, unless the company, itself, is also too leveraged in one investment, particularly in itself.
#36
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@Discipulus_Didicit
wat? stop being high.
employee-owned companies are fictional
never said that
HDR inc. is not an employee-owned company.
never said that either
HDR inc. has no manager positions among it's workforce.
you're twisting my words
If he can prove all three of these statements are true then the voters are obligated to vote for him and I will change all my profile settings to a setting of his choice for a month and send him $100 via PayPal.
...

#37
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@WaterPhoenix
our fictional worker-owned company

I never said worker-owned companies are fictional

Right...

#38
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@WaterPhoenix
But you understand the answer I gave to your question in post 19 right?
#39
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@Discipulus_Didicit
sure
#40
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I am new to this forum, so I might ignore someone's response or repeat them because I don't have time to read all of these. I will state my own opinion on the topic. 

So...I believe worker-owned companies aren't good ideas. Fellow posters, prove me wrong but please don't utilize traits that will result in a report and ban.

Reason1: Workers already have tiring jobs, and they should not also manage new things. 
The average work hour is 9 am-5 pm, which is 8 hours of somewhat-repetitive works. Minus the lunch of maybe 30 minutes, there are still 7 and two-quarters of time to spare for these mundane industries. Most workers just want to earn money, and somewhere there are offices of bored people who, in which none of these ordinary human beings wanted to work here. Now, since the entity is worker-do, worker-own, worker-manage, there will be hardly any time for them to do managerial jobs also. Yeah, you are the worker who packs paper(or scientific equipment, whatever) every single day, PLUS co-manager, PLUS regional salesman. How tiring is that? With this pressure on their gardening hoe, many people would want to quit. There will be a situation in which there are no managers, and a new one is elected(and surprisingly, no one would want to do the job because they are already workers), and then they retire, and then repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat until the company has hardly people anymore, and every single person there has a LOT more work than usual, resulting in them quitting also, and running the company down to ruins. 

Reason 2: Unfairness.
Explained in the last one, well sorta. The present state of humanity, especially many in depression and paranoid due to the mundane works they had had to do, would make worker-owned companies unfair. Say, the lowest tier of worker will think, "Why does Jim have the privilege of being a co-manager, while I can only do this?" When he is the manager, he will think, "Why does Michael only have to flip nuts n' bolts, while I have to manage all sales in the West New Mexico?" Same categories, different jobs, jealousy appears. Until one point, where a worker is good enough that everyone wants him to be the boss, the government wants him too. Then, it is no worker-owned business no more.

I'd also like to mention the anarchy this would cause. If one worker slacks off then he may influence most of the room. Good king is good, bad king is bad, no king is bad too, indeed. If there is no "boss", then everyone would slack off at one point unless everyone is extremely disciplined. Anarchy would also run the company down to the grave.
#41
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@User_2006
Reason1: Workers already have tiring jobs, and they should not also manage new things. 

Part ownership of a company does not require one to put any effort into managing said company.

I am a partial owner of Amazon, Home Depot, Marathon Petroleum, and a dozen or so other companies. I was at one time a partial owner of many many other companies.

I have put zero effort into managing any of these companies, despite being a partial owner.

Whoever told you that being a partial owner requires you to put effort into managing a company has lied to you.
#42
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What some of these retards seem to thing worker-owned company means:

Stock is owned only by employees and all employees own the same amount of stock.

What worker-owned company actually means in real life:

Stock is owned only by employees.
#43
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@Discipulus_Didicit
That is interesting. I had never thought stock-only owners are actually owners.


#44
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@User_2006
Do you not know what shares are?
#45
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I know what shares are but because they earn out of nothing I don't consider them owners. Also, your turn for the debate.
#46
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@User_2006
Shares earn out of nothing

Ah, so you don't know what shares are. Okay.
#47
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@Trent0405
isnt this how indie game studios are run? 
Topic's author
#48
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@skittlez09
It does seem like a lot of them are run this way. I would highly doubt that this applies to all of them however.


#49
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@User_2006
So anyway now you know the claim you made in post 40:

Yeah, you are the worker who packs paper(or scientific equipment, whatever) every single day, PLUS co-manager, PLUS regional salesman.

is a false claim (because you now know it is possible for a paper packer to not have to do the job of a co-manager and regional salesman).

I am curious what your new response to the OP is now that you know this.
#50
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This topic spawned a fun debate:
#51
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@Barney
Aww, you think my ideas are fun. Does that mean we are friends now?
#52
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@Trent0405
There are a lot of worker owned companies that do pretty well. I have seen bakeries mechanics and grocery stores that were co ops that do pretty well for both employees and customers.
#53
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@WaterPhoenix
you can't count on someone to be motivated, you're placing a bit too much trust in the honor or your average workplace employee. with structure, you're going to have to work or you'll get fired. without a structure what if someone decides to just not work? who's going to fire them? 
In co ops you still have leadership, structure and can get terminated as a group decision. I also think you come from an elitest mindset here. The average employee is motivated by taking ownership of thier job, they are trustworthy and have honor. I have supervised sometimes 30 -40 people at a time. I took over a store from a manager that instructed me when I showed up that the crew was bad. I gently informed him that no, it was him doing a shitty job. I simply created an environment of respect. They will respect themselves, each other and the guests. This made them happier, chopped service times to 1/3 eliminated a lot of shrinkage and most importantly people were happy to be there which meant they were more productive and the guests got a better experience. You may see me scoff at people here from a zoomed out perspective, but don't mistake that cynicism for an actual belief that is applied in real life. If you want to be an effective leader, which you should want to be. Then you need to stop with that ignorant elitest attitude that plagues this site, particularly in the self appointed as well as mike appointed leaders.

#54
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@Singularity
53 = good post.
#55
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@WaterPhoenix
@User_2006
I was on the fence regarding this topic but now that everyone who came out against worker-owned companies (except for Trent) has been challenged to back up their assertions and have all failed to do (such as WPs assertion that worker-owned companies don't and can't exist or user_2006s assertion that they are inherently unfair) so I am more inclined to be in favor of worker-owned companies.


#56
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Never said that, but thanks for telling us your conclusions.

#57
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@WaterPhoenix
our fictional worker-owned company

Never said worker-owned companies are fictional

Uh-huh.

You're welcome.