Does Prayer Work?

Author: Salixes

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#61
ethang5
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@Salixes
I am deliberately limiting the chances of deceptive people who think they can try all sorts of tricks to derail the argument because they know the obvious right from the beginning.
Or, you are deliberately limiting the chances of your deceptive argument being derailed because you know it was obviously fake right from the beginning.

Either or.
#62
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@Salixes
There is no hope of winning an argument that is based on irrefutable truth.

And there is no use in claiming a mistake as an irrefutable truth. Here's a claim, and an irrefutable truth -- prayer is more than petition. If you start by asserting that they are exclusive and identical, your entire argument fails. That's where you are right now.
#63
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@rosends
That's where he was the first dozen times he spammed the clunker too.
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#64
Salixes
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@rosends
prayer is more than petition
Oh well, he dared to stick his toe in the water and make a statement.

But I can go one more and be bolder than you:

"Prayer is a bit more than a petition."
Do you care to up the ante?

At this rate, we may get up to "prayer is saying something".....after say, 100 or so exchanges.

But then, anyone who knows me knows that I will always cut to the chase and make the deciding, definitive statement........
Waiiiiiit for it folks......

Prayer is a load of crap.

So, stop clasping your hands in the vain hope that your imaginary friend is going to cure the boil on your backside in favour over all the hundreds of thousands of parents around the world simultaneously praying, whose kids are dying from the most horrendous diseases.

If prayer does work (and it doesn't) I hope God has a decent set of priorities to send some sniveling little bugger praying over a bum boil to the end of the line to wait.........
.......standing up of course. That'll stop you from being so anal retentively self-pretentious, won't it?


#65
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@rosends
That's how he gets when you beat him with logic and do not take the bait on his childish insults.

Good job staying on topic and away from his rabbit holes.

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#66
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@ethang5
That's how he gets
That's how I get when someone is so limp-wristed that the best he can do is sneer and snicker at what other people say.

Then he finally musters up the most minuscule amount of guts to make a statement...."prayer is more than petition".

I mean, hallelujah, and whoopdeedoo, what a profound and daring revelation.

Would you ever embarrass yourself by coming out with such a weaker than weasel's pee statement like that?
#67
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@Salixes
Do you care to up the ante?

At this rate, we may get up to "prayer is saying something".....after say, 100 or so exchanges.

But then, anyone who knows me knows that I will always cut to the chase and make the deciding, definitive statement........
Waiiiiiit for it folks......

Prayer is a load of crap.

So, stop clasping your hands in the vain hope that your imaginary friend is going to cure the boil on your backside in favour over all the hundreds of thousands of parents around the world simultaneously praying, whose kids are dying from the most horrendous diseases.

If prayer does work (and it doesn't) I hope God has a decent set of priorities to send some sniveling little bugger praying over a bum boil to the end of the line to wait.........
.......standing up of course. That'll stop you from being so anal retentively self-pretentious, won't it?
You are trying again to make an assertion which is provably wrong and rejecting an explicit claim which is provably true.

Prayer is a variety of things. The three basic functions of prayer are praise, request and thanks. I can provide sources for this claim and examples of each if you would like. This, though, doesn't reduce to "prayer is saying something". If you can't see the distinction then that's your limitation, not a problem with prayer.

You seem to see only the praise function and have decided that if the request isn't granted in a way recognizable by the petitioner, it fails. That's a specious argument. When you are ready to have an actual conversation about what prayer is, not just what you think it is, let me know.


#68
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@rosends
When you are ready to have an actual conversation about what prayer is, not just what you think it is, let me know.


I wouldn't hold your breath! Actual conversation about topics is suddenly in extreme short supply around here these days. I'd love to participate in a thread about prayer efficacy (I did one a while ago specific to intercessory prayer that was pretty lively), but it's fking tedious to sift through the various internet characters who would rather just insult each other. You can trace the downhill slide of this place to the arrival of about three different people, the joker who started this topic is one of them, as is his apparent nemesis. It's a shame. 
#69
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@ludofl3x
I'd love to participate in a thread about prayer efficacy (I did one a while ago specific to intercessory prayer that was pretty lively),

I think it is an interesting topic but it presents certain problems (as I have tried to outline):

intercessory prayer's efficacy may not be measurable (a "no" would make the prayer effective at communicating a position but not in changing a divine decision and it is impossible to know what the outcome might have been without the prayer -- my dad could have died a day earlier had I not prayer...)

it also begs the question of the nature of God -- if God is unchanging and unchangeable, then why would anyone think that prayer could have any effect, changing a divine decree? A secondary question about God's knowing the future and how things will turn out might also develop.
#70
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@rosends
Yeah, that was pretty much how the discussion went: what's the point of trying to change god's plan with intercessory prayer, basically. Also, I think there's a material difference between "no" and "unanswered," but I think Christians largely see things like (to use a lighter example) "praying for the 49ers to win the superbowl" and then having the Chiefs win a "no" response to the prayer. To me, if you didn't receive a direct response of 'no,' then that prayer seems unheard at worst, heard and ignored at best. I think that's different than no.  
#71
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@ludofl3x
Of course, if one person prays for the 49ers and one person prays for the Chiefs then one might say that both prayers have been answered, one with a no and one with a yes. If one says that one received a yes, then can one still say that the other side got zero answer?
#72
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@rosends
It's impossible it would seem to me to confirm that the prayer was answered in either way, as you pointed out, you can't be sure the Chiefs would have won without the praying. Once you say a prayer, anything that's remotely like what you wanted, you can take full credit for, right? Use the lost keys example, if you lose your keys, spend ten minutes looking all over for them, then pray to find them. They don't turn up in spite of your searching, so instead, you decide you'll use your spare this time and find them later with Jesus's help. Then you put your jacket on, and what do you know, there are your keys, exactly where you left them. Is it ONLY because your prayer was answered that you found them? How can we work to confirm it?
#73
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@ludofl3x
Exactly -- that's why I think the question of measuring the efficacy of prayer is a non-starter. The confirmation bias is too strong.

#74
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@rosends
Do you think there's no way to measure it at all, efficacy of prayer? 
#75
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@ludofl3x
I think belief teaches that all prayer is necessarily effective (conditions permitting) but the effect is not always discernable or desired.
#76
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@rosends
I think belief teaches that all prayer is necessarily effective (conditions permitting) but the effect is not always discernable or desired.

This is answering a different question, of course that's what belief TEACHES, but that doesn't mean it's true. I'm not sure how you'd credit prayer with efficacy if in fact the 'effect' is indiscernible from not praying, or the effect is not what you prayed for (desired). 
#77
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@ludofl3x
I'm not sure how you'd credit prayer with efficacy if in fact the 'effect' is indiscernible from not praying, or the effect is not what you prayed for (desired). 

Because faith teaches that the prayer communicated to the desired ear the wish of the individual and the purpose of prayer is that communication, so it is, by definition, effective. And because faith teaches that all (proper) prayer is answered in some way though we may not see that answer, or like it.

There is the story of the little girl who prays every night for a new bicycle for her birthday. Her birthday comes, no bicycle. He brother makes fun of her, saying "God didn't answer your prayer." She responds, "Yes he did. He said 'no'." That's the confirmation bias which would lead a believer to say that all prayer is effective in communicating the wishes and eliciting a response.
#78
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@rosends
faith teaches that the prayer communicated to the desired ear the wish of the individual and the purpose of prayer is that communication, so it is, by definition, effective
<br>
Interesting. In order for prayer to be effective (presuming the effect is not the same as say simple meditation), it simply has to communicate something, to something or someone. Can we independently confirm, regardless of prayer efficacy, that communication was in fact received? For example, we can confirm a signal being received someplace, this would be 'communicated' regardless of response. 
#79
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@ludofl3x
In order for prayer to be effective (presuming the effect is not the same as say simple meditation), it simply has to communicate something, to something or someone. Can we independently confirm, regardless of prayer efficacy, that communication was in fact received? For example, we can confirm a signal being received someplace, this would be 'communicated' regardless of response. 
First, a clarification -- intercessory prayer has to be communicated with the proper intent (actually, all prayer needs the proper intent but I want to clarify that we are talking about intercessory, which will cross over into another form), because part of the power of the prayer is in the asking. Part of the effect is reminding the petitioner of his place relative to the divine. So simply making the request properly is the effectiveness (strange but true).

As to whether the message has been received, that's the confirmation bias -- faith teaches that proper prayer is always received. So once you subscribe to the faith system, there can't be any other understanding.
#80
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@rosends
@ludofl3x
The subject of whether prayer can be scientifically tested is here.


#81
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@ethang5
Great, it looks more like another one of your pointless feud threads, though. And the title needs work. I'm doing fine in this thread, thanks for the invite. 
#82
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@ludofl3x
So much for your "really" wanting to discuss the topic.

But really, if you are put off by the religion boards trolls, you'll never post there. And blaming a person who is being stalked as "always having dangerous people around him" is morally repugnant. It's like blaming the rape victim for rape.

If you really want a board free of trolls, first be morally honest, and then insist the mods rid us of them, either by controlling their behavior, or by banning them.

A rational honest person doesn't want stalking victims eliminated along with the stalkers just to be rid of stalkers.
#83
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@ethang5
I'm discussing the topic just fine, thanks. I have no idea what you're on about with the stalking victim or rape victim analogy, I just know that you seem to be embroiled in a lot of idiotic feuds and your posts that deal with the topic directly seem to be outnumbered by your impertinent to topic posts by about ten to one. Including that last one, and I'm sure the one after this. Plus naming your topic "stupidity experiment", while on brand, does not exactly sound like anything I'd be interested in.
#84
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@ludofl3x
No, you're only interested in taking shots at me while whining about me to someone who doesn't know me.

Have fun being self-righteous.

#85
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@ethang5
Will do, thanks. Let me know if you ever decide to have an intellectually honest discussion, I'll be glad to have a look at it, otherwise I'm pretty sure you're just looking for another sandbox fight, I'll pass as I prefer acting like an adult. 

#86
ethang5
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@ludofl3x
Have fun being self-righteous.

Will do, thanks.
The self-righteous always do.

Let me know if you ever decide to have an intellectually honest discussion, I'll be glad to have a look at it,
I just did and you passed and insulted me for being stalked by trolls. Are you aware this is a public board?

otherwise I'm pretty sure you're just looking for another sandbox fight,
Though you assaulted me to Rosends even before I had posted to this board. You have insulted me 3 more times now in each post, but somehow, I'm the one looking for a "sandbox" fight?

I'll pass as I prefer acting like an adult.
Look around you hypo, see the millions of tiny tan, grainy things in the box you're sitting in? Its called sand. And adults call what you're doing, a silly feud.

Let me know if you ever decide to have an intellectually honest discussion...
Or when I want to hear you fight in a sandbox like an adult. Will do.
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#87
Salixes
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@rosends


You seem to see only the praise function and have decided that if the request isn't granted in a way recognizable by the petitioner, it fails. That's a specious argument. When you are ready to have an actual conversation about what prayer is, not just what you think it is, let me know.<br>

You seem to see only the praise function and have decided that if the request isn't granted in a way recognizable by the petitioner, it fails. That's a specious argument. When you are ready to have an actual conversation about what prayer is, not just what you think it is, let me know.

Prayer is:

prayer | pre: | nouna solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity.

There is no evidence whatsoever that prayers are listened to.
Prayers are made by people of different faiths, each claiming that their particular faith is the only pathway for prayer.
Those who pray are always keen to boast about the prayers they have made have been answered or have come true. Yet are reluctant to even admit the number of prayers they have made have either been not answered or not come true.

Placebos don't work.

Prayer does not work.

Weaving in and out of the conditionals, whys, and wherefores in each case is just tampering with the facts.
#88
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@Salixes
Prayer is:

prayer | pre: | nouna solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity.
If you choose a different source, you get a different result

"Jewish prayer is G‑d’s way oftelling the Jewish people, “speak to Me and I will listen.” Three times a day, Jews pray to G‑d, thankingHim, praising Him, and beseeching Him for personal requests."

Note the three separate functions of prayer?

Can you even devise a method of measuring the result of praise? What's the evidence that anyone hears or doesn't hear a "thank you"?

So, again -- if you only look at petitionary prayer then you have problems with measurements. If you consider other functions of prayer, you have more problems with measurements.
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#89
Salixes
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@rosends
If you choose a different source, you get a different result
But I didn't.
I quoted an authoritative, definitive and irrefutable source.

Prayer does not work.
#90
ethang5
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@Salixes
You still have not addresses how a prayer experiment can successfully use the scientific method.