The Sad Story of Job's Children

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#1
Stephen
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Sad story of Job
 
 
Of all the examples of the unnecessary, wanton, willful and wastefully killing committed by god, the story of the murder of the children of Job has to be the worst singular example. , Satan Allowed to Test Job.  Job 1:6-12
 
The particular murders of these TEN! children stands out simply because there is absolutely no reason given for these wanton, and willfully deliberate killings other than god wanting to prove a point. Satan Takes Job's Property and Children. Job 1:13-19
 
 
All murder of innocent people is abhorrent, even to some Christians I should imagine.  But these particular killings are for no other reason than that god wanted to prove that he has a most loyal servant in Job, to someone, that he presumably had condemn and sentenced to spend "the rest of his life" on his belly eating "dust"!!!   Genesis 3:14
 
I mean,why of all people or all things would GOD even feel the need to have to prove anything to anyone never mind a creature  such as a belly-crawling dust eating lowlife?
 
Other examples of gods willful murder of innocents usually are accompanied with some trumped up charge or excuse of sinning and disobedience of one kind or another but not in this case. 
 
Why Is life so cheap to god?
 
 
The story of job and the willful murder of all of Job's children can be read here.
Job 1:1-19 EnglishStandard Version (ESV)


#2
ludofl3x
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Couldn't the same thing be said about the truly disturbing tale of Abraham and Isaac? Why doesn't the all knowing god just know without the test is never clear. If he just wanted Abraham to know how faithful he was, couldn't he simply put that info in the brain without the sickest "Pscyhe!!!!" ever?
#3
Discipulus_Didicit
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It's okay though, he got a new and better family at the end.
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It's really kind of silly to accuse God of murder. Murder is unlawful killing.

Why not just accuse God of murdering everyone? After all, everyone dies.

No, but it is silly to accuse The Truth of murder, breaking the law, or of any perversion. Perversion is deviation from The Truth. God cannot break the law, rather He establishes it.


Job was mercilessly tormented by demons, and did he curse God and die? He rather endured to the end, knowing that to make peace with reality is to make peace with God. He was truly a man after God's own heart, and the archetypical suffering saint.

A lot can be learned from Job, and that is why we still read his story today.



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@ludofl3x
Couldn't the same thing be said about the truly disturbing tale of Abraham and Isaac? Why doesn't the all knowing god just know without the test is never clear.

Here in the story of Job we do have a god that actually did know the out come. He did know his servant wouldn't let him down and he did know  he would remain faithful, but killed these ten children anyway.  It was simply far beyond any  all mental torture for the hell of it.

And there is the problem concerning Satan. 

That same old serpent mentioned in  Genesis 3:14 and  “the ancient serpent” mentioned Revelation 12:9, 20:2. He was supposed to have been sentenced to crawl in the dirt "on his belly" god knows how many years before he appears walking around and talking with god in the story of job.

 Job 1: 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”

  Yes here he was  just lolling and ambling about the earth and bored to tears and picking the heads of daisies by the sound of it.
Who knows, this could have all been concocted to occupy Satan and relieve him from his tedium for a while.
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#6
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It's okay though, he got a new and better family at the end.

Indeed . It appears that life was cheap to Job too. As he accepted compensation ( no doubt with grovelling gratitude) for any and all loses which included;
  

 "14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 yoke of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys". Job 42:12.  And a much longer life than that of his own murdered children. 

 "And Job died, an old man, and full of days." Job 42 :17

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I successfully used the story of Job in a debate, to support the premise that Jesus and God are not the same:
2.       How many times does Jesus set innocent people on fire over nothing related to any of their actions? God did this (Job 1:16).
https://www.debateart.com/debates/950/the-bible-teaches-that-jesus-christ-is-god
Of course, I disagree with my own interpretation of it there, as much as I would repeat that.
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#8
Stephen
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@Mopac
It's really kind of silly to accuse God of murder. Murder is unlawful killing.

Is it? Are you saying that god had no hand in slaughter of job's innocent children? Because the scripture will prove you to be wrong. 

Why not just accuse God of murdering everyone? After all, everyone dies.

Oh please! This is simple desperation of you trying to excuse the inexcusable.
 Stop showing your very shallow understanding of what I am conveying here. Not all people die as the result of murder .

 These children were willfully killed - murdered .

 I have said to you many times; this is what those early Christians and you inherited when they and you adopted a religious ideology that you and they, had absolutely no understanding about. this is the god you have adopted. And now, here in the 21st century it is all coming back to bite you, because today, we can read and write and think to question for ourselves unlike   back then, in the days of Job. 


No, but it is silly to accuse The Truth of murder, breaking the law, or of any perversion. Perversion is deviation from The Truth. God cannot break the law, rather He establishes it.

I can only ask that you to read for yourself what you have wrote above in that^^^^^^^^^^^ quote.


A lot can be learned from Job, and that is why we still read his story today.

i think you mean - " A lot can be learned from [ the story of ]Job". 

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#9
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@Barney
I successfully used the story of Job in a debate, to support the premise that Jesus and God are not the same:
2.       How many times does Jesus set innocent people on fire over nothing related to any of their actions? God did this (Job 1:16).
Of course, I disagree with my own interpretation of it there, as much as I would repeat that.

 I have always separated the Old and New Testament gods, while many Christians insist on them being the same. And I made it clear many times (especially when arguing with other faiths) that I believe that these are different gods.

I make the point at post 8 above,   as I have had to do many times on this forum that  those early Christians inherited the OT god when they  adopted a religious ideology that they had absolutely no understanding about.  And now, here in the 21st century it is all coming back to bite them, because today, we can read and write and think to question for ourselves unlike   back then, in the days of Job or Jesus.

On the surface the NT projects a pacifist wonder working Jesus and this is the Jesus that most devout Christians prefer to believe and preach and project - while ignoring the fact that Jesus was  strictly Jew not a Christian . They are unfortunately shackled with problem of  an Old Testament Hebrew god that they should have cast off millennia ago.

This OT god has caused many problems for Christians today as they are left to explain away - excuse - and defend every single repeated murderous action (as in the case of Job) of this vile jealous god of war and intolerance. And some of these "explanations" and excuses are, at times , breath taking. imo


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Mopac
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@Stephen
Laws are not for God. It is stupid to accuse God of doing something unlawful.

There is no law against The Truth.


If you are going to blame God for giving Satan the authority for doing these things, why not also blame God for giving people the power to choose to do evil?

Why don't you do as Job's wicked wife suggested? To curse God, and die.


Maybe that is just the issue you are having. Unlike Job who was righteous and refused to curse God and die, you have already decided to sling curses at God. Rest assured, you will die.


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@Stephen
I have always separated the Old and New Testament gods, while many Christians insist on them being the same. And I made it clear many times (especially when arguing with other faiths) that I believe that these are different gods


As is pretty typical from so called gnostics.

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I have said to you many times; this is what those early Christians and you inherited when they and you adopted a religious ideology that you and they, had absolutely no understanding about. this is the god you have adopted. And now, here in the 21st century it is all coming back to bite you, because today, we can read and write and think to question for ourselves unlike   back then, in the days of Job.


I don't accept your knowledge. From the way you use scripture, it is clear to me that you are very much unenlightened.

You would be better off learning from the church than from heretics.


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#13
Stephen
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@Mopac
Maybe that is just the issue you are having.

I do. With your gods attitude towards life. Precious Human life.


it is clear to me that you are very much unenlightened.

Don't try to make this about me. I can  read!.  You are trying desperately to defend this crime and are now taking the cowards way out of this blinding dilemma,because you have absolutely no way of excusing this vile and vicious willful act of unnecessary aggression that ended with the deaths of ten children and for no other reason but to prove a point.., This is all your gods doing. 


These killings were sanctioned by god. your god.

LOOK>>>  12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
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@Mopac
Discontinue the use of veiled threats in your words, as exemplified with:
Rest assured, you will die.
You chose to make a particular other user the target of that statement, tying it to them not doing what you want. This removes the 'well everyone dies,' defense. Had one of the 9/11 hijackers made such a statement before the plane took off, I would hope they would have been removed rather than allowed to continue (probably for some justification along the lines of they were only doing what their interpretation of their religion mandated).
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@Barney
That is not a veiled threat. It is a reality. Everyone dies. The Truth is Eternal.

The way we understand salvation is unity with The Truth.

I will not change this language. It is appropriate.


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Mopac
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@Stephen
Humans have no value apart from God. Your reasoning is faulty because you making humanity an idol above The Truth.


Rather, if you were looking at this properly you would both respect humanity and honor God. In dishonoring God, you rob humanity of it's value.

It is foolish to accuse God. It is like destroying yourself because you can't accept that things are the way they are.

To curse God is to die. Why choose death?



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@Barney
No disrespect intended either, I understand your concern. You do a fine job as mod.
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#18
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@Mopac
Humans have no value apart from God.

No kidding.

That is what this thread is about. It is about god who won't allow you to exist if you won't bend the knee and refuse to accept him and his dictatorship. it is also about a god that will kill you without explanation  at the drop of an hat,only to prove a point . But you haven's explained why he is prone to do this,


And further to your statement that:
Humans have no value apart from God.
 I asked WHY is life so cheap to god? I already know life has no value at all to god.

Yet Jesus says quite the opposite doesn't he? Jesus  message is all to do with life and life giving, life saving and life sparing and of course  life everlasting.  Well these kids lives didn't last at all did they. 



And how come Satan is getting off light in this story. He seems to be able to come and go as he pleases after being cursed -  god knows how many years before - to spend the rest of his days slithering around in the dirt. How come he is here again, up right and on all fours just rambling around, talking with and having wagers with god?

Why would god need to prove anything to anyone? <<<<<<<<<< this is where all of your pathetic excuses and labored explanations all fall down.



#19
ethang5
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All such complaints boil down to is,

"God don't obey my personal moral code."

And the only question to that is, "So what?" This is "like" bacteria accusing the medical doctor of murder.

If you ask Stephen what makes God's actions immoral, he will cite his personal moral code based on human suffering, and claim God is immoral for not obeying his personal moral code. But will also argue that there is no objective morality, all the while insisting their subjective personal morality should cover God!

The hubris is astounding.
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#20
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@ethang5
If you ask Stephen..... he will......his personal....But he will......his personal.....
Your Post 18 above;  are all personal attack directed at the person and not the subject matter of the thread. You have done this simply to agitate and  create your own argument, with me  

Please address the topic and its questions . If you cannot do this . I ask you to leave the topic.


If you ask Stephen what makes God's actions immoral,



 DO NOT MAKE THIS A PERSONAL ISSUE.!!! AGAIN!!!!!!



#21
ethang5
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@Stephen
You made this thread Steve.

Your Post 18 above;  are all personal attack directed at the person and not the subject matter of the thread. 
None of that was attacks, much less personal.

I said, "If you ask Stephen what makes God's actions immoral, he will cite his personal moral code based on human suffering, and claim God is immoral for not obeying his personal moral code."

This is not an attack. It is true, and since if I ask you, what makes God's actions immoral? You will dodge the question, I can only gleen your answer from your comments in other places.

Opposition to your argument is not a personal attack. Dismembering your shoddy logic is not an attack, that is what you should expect on a debate board.

You say God is immoral. I ask, why should God follow your personal moral code? You claim I'm "attacking" you.

I'm attacking your illogical argument. You said,...

All murder of innocent people is abhorrent...
Who made it murder? You? Who made them innocent? You? Abhorrent to whom? You?

DO NOT MAKE THIS A PERSONAL ISSUE.!!! AGAIN!!!!!!
Please stop being fake. Your entire argument is a personal one. Your argument is that you find God's action personally abhorrent. I'm asking you, so what? Why is God immoral for not observing your personal moral code?

You can dodge the questions again, it will only serve to show you cannot address the lack of logic in your position.

Of all the examples of the unnecessary, wanton, willful and wastefully killing committed by god
Unnecessary, wanton, willful and wasteful are all just your subjective opinions. You want us to accept them as established fact. Why? Simply because you think they are? I don't think so.

I will be upset when you show actual immorality by God, not just when you whine that God is not doing what you like.
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#22
Stephen
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@ethang5
You made this thread Steve.

Your Post 18 above;  are all personal attack directed at the person and not the subject matter of the thread. 
None of that was attacks, much less personal.
It is obvious you care not for the rules or the consequences of your deliberate actions.!!!!!

None of that was attacks, much less personal.
That will be for someone else to decide. You not have addresses the topic and it is clear to see. You wrote those comments directed at me personally. You will simply have to learn the difference won't you. 

I ask you again to leave the thread.


DO NOT MAKE THIS A PERSONAL ISSUE.!!! AGAIN!!!!!!

I will keep log of the times I have requested I ask you to leave a thread.

#23
Mopac
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@Stephen
God is The Truth. 

Your reasoning is contingent on making God something that God isn't.


You do not exist apart from The Truth. If you did, it wouldn't be true that you exist.


#24
ethang5
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@Stephen
I will keep log of the times I have requested I ask you to leave a thread.
Wouldn't it be better to just post the section of the CoC where one must leave a thread when you request it?

You not have addresses the topic and it is clear to see.
Well now, let's see how clear it is that I have not addressed the topic.

I posted the following, (with bold showing where the topic was addressed.)

This is not an attack. It is true, and since if I ask you, what makes God's actions immoral? You will dodge the question, I can only gleen your answer from your comments in other places.

Opposition to your argument is not a personal attack. Dismembering your shoddy logic is not an attack, that is what you should expect on a debate board.

You say God is immoral. I ask, why should God follow your personal moral code? You claim I'm "attacking" you.

I'm attacking your illogical argument. You said,...

All murder of innocent people is abhorrent...
Who made it murder? You? Who made them innocent? You? Abhorrent to whom? You?

Please stop being fake. Your entire argument is a personal one. Your argument is that you find God's action personally abhorrent. I'm asking you, so what? Why is God immoral for not observing your personal moral code?

Now, tell us again how I have not addresses your argument.
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#25
Stephen
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 I ask, why should God follow your personal moral code? You claim I'm "attacking" you.
No. These statements below are personal attacks. One single and complete post direct at me personally.

Post 19 above
All such complaints boil down to is,

"God don't obey my personal moral code."

And the only question to that is, "So what?" This is "like" bacteria accusing the medical doctor of murder.

If you ask Stephen what makes God's actions immoral, he will cite his personal moral code based on human suffering, and claim God is immoral for not obeying his personal moral code. But will also argue that there is no objective morality, all the while insisting their subjective personal morality should cover God!

The hubris is astounding.

You make so many you just cannot distinguish the difference anymore and throwing in a " so what"" question does not disguise the fact that these are personal attacks  directed at no one else but me. My word, you were even silly enough to show the whole world who these attacks were directed at?

 I will keep log of the times I have requested I ask you to leave a thread.
Wouldn't it be better to just post the section of the CoC where one must leave a thread when you request it?

So you are aware of that then. It states when "continually asked to leave a thread".  But you choose to disregard it and ignore it all the same. 

Keep going princess , You prove my case that you are a spent force every single time you post these days.

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#26
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@ethang5
Your argument is that you find God's action personally abhorrent. I'm asking you, so what? 


Hahahahhahahahhahahahhah And that is your fkn defense is it ??  Your only defense  for the actions of this self confessed jealous, warmonger god of war and the wanton and willful murder of  these innocent children, for no reason? 

I have asked why is life so cheap to this god? And You cannot explain it away at all and are left with one response, that is to ask me so "so what?"

Hahahhahhahhahahahhahahhahahhahahhahahhahahhhahahahhahhahhahahhahhahahhah

You will be asking me next who am I to question your god.

Hahahhahahahhahahhahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahhahahah

"So what"


hahhahahahahhahahahahhahhahahahhahhahahhahahhahahhah


Ted Bundy murdered over 30 women and children also for no reason.. are we supposed to say "so what"?  And have your god resurrect him?  I don't see why ever not, they are of the same fkn ilk. 

"so what"?


Hahhahahahhahahhahahhahhahhahhahahhahhahhahahhahhah, my ribs fkn hurt. Hahahahahhahahhahahhahahhahahhahah
#27
Mopac
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@Stephen
Ethan is right though, you have no understanding of what you are saying.

The Ultimate Reality is God.

Surely, judgement against this God cannot stand.


#28
ludofl3x
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This story is a fine test subject for the question "If god does it, is it moral?" that so few theists really have an appetite for. If this story, Job, were described in non-Biblical terms, wherein two observers, Greg and Sam, plot to torture in unthinkable ways some third party, Jim, to see if they could get him to crack, everyone I know would say BOTH observers were jerks, and the third party an innocent victim. If you detailed the description by adding that one of the observers, Greg, had the power to ensure Jim was fired from their job in such a way that it's impossible for Jim to make a living, you'd get responses that Greg was certainly crossing the line from jerk to malevolence.

If you change the names to Satan, God and Job, suddenly you have a number of people, like Ethan, who seem to say no, this is totally fine, God's doing it, and he's got an even BETTER moral code than you. This means that no matter what god does, it's then the new moral standard. Is that how the divine moral code works, or is something moral because it's moral, not because god does it? This would make the biblical god, like all other mythological gods, subject to something: morality. If he's not subject to morality, then everything he does is moral...so then why is it immoral for you to do the same? Christians profess that this is the source of the uniform moral code that is for all time, without considering, forget explaining, this issue. I don't expect any to do so here based on what I've read. I expect Ethan will get all up in arms and claim I want god to be subject to MY moral code (as he's already done in this thread), which while I'm certain my moral code wouldn't let me burn a man's child on a bet, for example, is like saying I think Darth Vader is bad because he doesn't behave how I want him to. To me they're characters worthy of analysis, and I think they're exactly as real as one another. 
#29
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@ludofl3x
The problem you and Stephen are having is that your reasonings do not take into account Who God Is.

The Ultimate Reality is God.

Of what profit is it to be in denial of The Truth? To be unwilling to accept reality?  It's self destructive. Accusing God is not rational, it is patently foolish.




#30
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Though Job suffered greatly, he knew it was wicked to condemn God. To do such a thing is to choose death. It makes no sense. Embracing delusion does not save. Love of The Truth is how you embrace and transcend suffering.