The "magicians" of Pharaoh

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#1
Stephen
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The double standards just do end ?

Moses' brother Aaron is a priest but more than that he is a prophet. And Moses is a god. <<<<<  yes! a god<<<<<< We know this because another god said so.

Exodus 7:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.



Now read this:


Exodus 7:10-20 New International Version (NIV)

Aaron’s Staff Becomes a Snake

8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Perform a miracle,’ then say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,’ and it will become a snake.”


10 So Moses (god) and Aaron (priest & prophet) went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.
 
11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 

12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

Hands up those who spots the double standards in this story? There's clue is in the title.



double standard
noun
plural noun: double standards
  1. a rule or principle which is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.



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Exodus 7:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.

Moses' brother Aaron is a priest but more than that he is a prophet. And Moses is a god. <<<<<  yes! a god<<<<<< We know this because another god said so.

Moses a god!?????



#3
Mopac
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@Stephen
He is describing the similarity of the relationship.

No, Moses is not God.


But just as a prophet will relay the words of God, so does Aaron relay the words of Moses.


That is what is being  said.

#4
ethang5
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And Moses is a god. <<<<<  yes! a god<<<<<< We know this because another god said so.
So when you said mopac was a sheep, you meant he was a sheep?

Are we to think this is true because another sheep said so?

Why is it you can use similes but God can't?

Note to Gentle Reader: The genius will dodge the question because the answer embarrasses him.

Can the class say hypocrite?

I thought it could.
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Has it got to do with?
Team ( HOLY GUYS ) thats,  THE GREAT LORD,  MOSES The Human God and the ever so Priestley Prophet A, Ron.  These guys do the turn staffs into snakes trick ummmm, ' Miraculously '
And.
Team (☆ Abra▪Kadabra ☆)  a Few wise guys , six or so Sorcerers, and some Magyptians.
They turn staff into snake via a sleight of hand and a puff of smoke.  ' Magically '




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@Mopac
He is describing the similarity of the relationship No, Moses is not God.

Well that is debatable considering god himself tells Moses that “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh".  Are you suggesting a play on words here?

And what about the double standards? Or are you simply going to ignore them? Or do you need them pointing out to you?




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@ethang5

Why is it you can use similes but God can't?
I am not. I am stating the words of non other than god himself. 


So when you said mopac was a sheep, you meant he was a sheep?
This is the third thread that you have blatantly broken forum rules concerning cross contamination. Let me remind you.


This is the fourth thread that you have blatantly broken forum rules concerning cross contamination. let me remind you.

LOOK>>>     
4. Cross-Thread Contamination
Cross-thread contamination is when a user brings up disputes elsewhere on the site up in an unrelated thread for the purpose of harassing, mocking, or insulting another member. Treat every new exchange with a member with as much of a "clean slate" as possible.




Now I am asking you to either address the double standards in this silly story or simply leave the thread. It is not a difficult choice.




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@Stephen
Why is it you can use similes but God can't?

I am not.
You are not what? Is your word "sheep" not a simile?

I am stating the words of non other than god himself.  
God called MoPac a sheep?? Can you cite that verse?

So when you said mopac was a sheep, you meant he was a sheep?

This is the third thread that you have blatantly broken forum rules concerning cross contamination. Let me remind you.
This is the fourth time you've dodged the question hypo.

Now I am asking you to either address the double standards...
There are no double standards in the story.

..in this silly story...
The story isn't silly. Your "assessment" is though.

or simply leave the thread.
No.

It is not a difficult choice.
Sure. But so then I can make the choice I want.

And the unanswered question remains. You called mopac a sheep, but you didn't mean a barnyard animal, the bible said you must hate your family to be a disciple, why couldn't "hate" also be different like your use of "sheep"?

Hmmm Genius?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Has it got to do with?
Team ( HOLY GUYS ) thats,  THE GREAT LORD,  MOSES The Human God and the ever so Priestley Prophet A, Ron.  These guys do the turn staffs into snakes trick ummmm, ' Miraculously '
And.
Team (☆ Abra▪Kadabra ☆)  a Few wise guys , six or so Sorcerers, and some Magyptians.
They turn staff into snake via a sleight of hand and a puff of smoke.  ' Magically '

Well done that man! 


Not too hard was it.  And did you notice how the theist avoided these blinding hypocritical double standards altogether? This is because they would have to recognize that either  Pharaohs priests (sorcerers ) were just as capable as Aaron's and Moses's god at pulling of this "miraculous" stunt without the assistance of any god or they would have to recognize that there were other gods. it is right there in the scripture, these "sourcerers" proved that one didn't need a god to turn a stick into a serpent.



10 So Moses (god) and Aaron (priest & prophet) went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.
 
11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 

12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. 

The question is, if it can be these " wise magicians and sorcerers" can pull of this trick with "their secret arts"  "Enchantments" (KJV),   "occult practices" (CSB) "magic spells".(G's WT) why is it that one side is seen as only performing  tricks yet the other  is seen as performing miracles? 




#10
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@Stephen
There is no legitimate debate, Stephen.


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@Stephen
@Deb-8-a-bull
It is very clear from the rest of the story that what God ends up doing is so far beyond what the magicians are able to do. That was even foreshadowed by the fact that the snake Moses' staff turned into ate the magician's snakes.


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@Mopac
There is no legitimate debate, Stephen.

You mean you want to totally ignore the double standards shown here by the biblical authors. That is  quite understandably seeing that pharaohs  "sorcerers" could pull of the same stunt as Arron did but his stunt  was supposed to be by  a miracle and power of god.  Wasn't it?

--> @Deb-8-a-bull  had absolutely no problem whatsoever spotting these double standards. While you,  did not. Even though it was glaring. 

And to say there is "no debate here"  is simply tell  others here , that age old "  nothing to see here, move on and everyone back on the bus" . GOD!!  you really are stuck for explanations aren't you.
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It is very clear from the rest of the story that what God ends up doing is so far beyond what the magicians are able to do.

Indeed  GOD'S  snake was obviously the best snake  because it was a snake created by the all powerful GOD;   it was gods special snake.

But where did the ability to do the same trick performed by Pharaoh's "sourcerers", come from? 




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@Stephen
The same place your posts come from. Why do you ask?
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@Stephen
It would be better to use the word "sign" than miracle, Stephen, I believe that expresses the meaning of the occurrence better in English.

Certainly these actions were signs. The fact that Moses' snake ate the snakes of the magicians was a sign as well.
Later in the story, it becomes increasingly clear that the magicians are so outclassed that they themselves confess that God is at work.





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Indeed  GOD'S  snake was obviously the best snake  because it was a snake created by the all powerful GOD;   it was gods special snake.

But where did the ability to do the same trick performed by Pharaoh's "sourcerers", come from? 

The Egyptians were pretty famous for their magic.

Where do stage magicians get their ability to perform magic?

Pharaoh saw Moses perform this sign with his staff, and took it as some soert of magic. It was pharaoh's intent to expose Moses' feat as magic by disproving him through having his magicians replicate the feat.

It becomes clear throughout the story that the signs being performed are from God, not Moses. It's not a magic trick, basically.


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It would be better to use the word "sign" than miracle, Stephen,

As you wish, it was a "sign" then of gods miraculous power. 

The fact that Moses' snake ate the snakes of the magicians was a sign as well.

Yes I have indicated as much above. See post 13 " Indeed  GOD'S  snake was obviously the best snake... etc etc.."


Later in the story, it becomes increasingly clear that the magicians are so outclassed that they themselves confess that God is at work.

Ok but this is not the issue . We know already that "god was at work" don't we. I am not going to bother going into who is the top god. And the Hebrew authors wouldn't have written it any other way , now would they.

NO, This issue is  the double standard of the authors and the question of where did the ability to do exactly the same "sign" performed by Pharaoh's "sorcerers", come from? 




#18
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@Stephen
Thats just it. The magicians practice the art of illusion and deception. That is what magic is. 

The point, as I said, was that Pharaoh was trying to dismiss Moses as a magician, not a prophet of God.

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@Mopac
Thats just it. The magicians practice the art of illusion and deception.
 You are missing my point. And no it is not just it.

   What it is , is that these "sorcerers" were able to perform exactly the same sign as Aaron did. You are trying to tell us that Aaron's trick was a miraculous sign and that the sorcerers " sign" was an illusion.  If it was only a performed illusion, how come  Aaron's snake ate these other snakes? Did they devour snakes that wasn't really there in reality? Did it devour illusionary reptiles? 

That is what magic is. 
This is my point. If god does it, it is a miracle but when these sorcerers perform the exact sign , then you and the bible call it magic.


The point, as I said, was that Pharaoh was trying to dismiss Moses as a magician, not a prophet of God.

Well Aaron was said to be the prophet not Moses. And again  my point cannot be more clear. On the hand  we have a so called miraculous sign performed by a servant of god and on the other we have to accept it was  only magic when exactly the same sign is performed by someone who doesn't recognize this god. <<<< double standards.
 

#20
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...double standards
>>Face-palm.<<

Lol.  

#21
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@Stephen
In one case a staff actually turns into a snake. The magicians simply imitate this through trickery.

It's a different thing.

If you don't accept that, I don't know what to tell you. 
#22
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@Mopac
Maybe I can help clarify your position. Do you mean to say that the bible's use of the word magic is basically the modern understanding of "magic," which is essentially "clever stagecraft"? Can you explain how, if this is your position, you arrived at this conclusion? Is it "there's no such thing as magic?"    
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@ludofl3x
I wouldn't say clever stagecraft exclusively. It really has more to do with exploiting belief.

Being demonic, magic is intended to obscure the truth, and it is done by trickery.

It isn't that magic isn't real, it is very real, and even very prevalent in society. It's that, like illusion, it is defined by its unreality.

Of course, historically magicians wanted people to believe they actually had special powers. It wasn't always the case that magic tricks were exposed by magicians and explained to people. In fact, historically this was considered a big no no by magicians. You don't explain your tricks. Kind of takes the magic out, you know?










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@Mopac
It isn't that magic isn't real, it is very real, and even very prevalent in society. It's that, like illusion, it is defined by its unreality.

I can understand why people have trouble figuring out what you're talking about. You're saying here that not only is magic REAL, it's prevalent in society (can you explain how? where can I see actual magic that is real and is not stagecraft?), but that it's 'defined by unreality.' How is something real defined by how unreal it is, exactly? Are you making the Athias-esque argument that magic is real because we have conceived of the idea of magic, or are you saying actual magic is real and distinct from clever stagecraft?

Did the egyptian guys use REAL magic, or unreal magic (stagecraft)? I don't understand what you're saying. 
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@Mopac
In one case a staff actually turns into a snake.
No, in BOTH  cases the staffs turn into snakes:

10 So Moses (god) and Aaron (priest & prophet) went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.
 
11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 

12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.



The magicians simply imitate this through trickery.

They are good then, aren't they?   To be able to pull this off without the assistance of any god!! Aaron and Moses needed gods divine assistance to pull off the same  "sign". 

It's a different thing.

Only in your mind. If the trick happened at all it proved Pharaoh's boys didn't need a god to do exactly the same trick.

If you don't accept that, I don't know what to tell you. 

 I don't accept it all all. And it was the double standards that I am highlighting. 
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@ludofl3x
No, I am saying that magic is a perceptual phenomenon. Perceptions are real, even if what is being perceived is not. Magic exists as magic.

An illusion exists as an illusion, even if its unreality is what defines it.

So you could say magic isn't real, but in some sense it is. 

If you understand the implications of what I'm saying, it should help to answer your other questions.
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@Stephen
We are simply going to have to disagree then. I will not be able to convince you, as like pharaoh, your heart is hardened against God.

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@Mopac
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying at all. And I don't think I'm the one to blame. If I perceive a Blurg, does that make it real?


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@ludofl3x
Real only in the sense that perceptions of illusions are real perceptions.

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@Mopac
Do you believe in witchcraft don't you ?