Should Ireland and Scotland have votes to secede from the UK?

Author: Imabench

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#1
Imabench
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Great Britain's election recently resulted in a large majority for the Conservative Party headed by Boris Johnson, a pro-Brexit party, where Brexit itself was the defining issue in the election that caused people to vote for certain parties accordingly. With this majority and the failure of the Labor Party to secure a similar size of the government, Britain is now almost surely ready to proceed with Brexit 

However, results from Scotland and Northern Ireland have shown almost the exact opposite reactions. A majority of the seats up for grabs in Northern Ireland went to Irish Nationalist parties, the first time that has happened since 1921, where the region voted heavily in favor of staying with the EU while Britain voted to leave. https://www.yahoo.com/news/first-irish-nationalists-overtake-unionists-070759388.html

In Scotland, the SNP party (Scottish Nationalist Party) OVERWHELMINGLY swept the area with 48 out of 59 seats going to this minor party. The SNP is very pro Scottish independence and also in favor of remaining within the EU. https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50789131

With Great Britain decisively voting into power the Conservative Party that will bring about an exit from the EU, while Scotland and Northern Ireland going in the exact opposite direction in wanting to both leave the UK and remain part of the EU, should these areas be granted independence, be granted the opportunity to hold referendums to decide independence, or should remain with the UK on its way out of the EU? 
#2
HistoryBuff
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@Imabench
I'm not an expert, but I don't believe the UK government has the power to prevent a referendum. In fact I believe they are bound by international treaty to require one in the case of northern Ireland because of the Good Friday agreement. 

I think new referendums in both cases are pretty much inevitable now. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen. I was in Northern Ireland last year and things seemed tense. If the possibility of Northern Ireland joining the republic of ireland becomes serious, violence could resume. 
#3
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They should eventually be presented with the option. But not immediately. If, say, five or six years after Brexit the economy is still doing alright then maybe they'll reconsider. Otherwise, they should have the right to leave then. Brexit has been afforded a popular mandate several times now, so all British subjects are obliged to give it a chance before resorting to measures that would tear apart the political fabric of their country.
#4
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@Swagnarok
They should eventually be presented with the option. But not immediately.
In the case of Ireland it will need to be soon. I don't have the text as a reference, but I'm pretty sure the good friday agreement says that if there is any indication that a majority of people in Northern Ireland would accept reunifying with the republic of ireland, then a referendum must be held. If the Irish nationalists won in northern ireland, that would be a very clear sign. 

Brexit has been afforded a popular mandate several times now
has it? It won by a tiny margin in a referendum. May held an election and got her ass kicked. In this election, there was no large opposition to Brexit. Labor refused to really tell anyone what their position on Brexit was. So the options were Brexit or "we'll tell you after we win". I don't see that as a win for brexit, I see that as a loss for people who refused to actually pick a side. Sadly the issue is likely settled now and massive damage is now unavoidable. 

so all British subjects are obliged to give it a chance before resorting to measures that would tear apart the political fabric of their country.
um, why? The british government is obliged to carry through on it. But Scotland and Northern Ireland were very clear they didn't want it. It is just England forcing it's will on them. England has torn the fabric of the country apart, but you think that it is Ireland and Scotland that should just give in? England showed they don't give a shit about Ireland or Scotland. They are actively shitting on their allies in Northern Ireland. 
#5
Greyparrot
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@Swagnarok
Right. The EU is overwhelmingly favorable to the smaller GDP countries, so it's no surprise for Ireland and Scotland to want to remain. They would have to petition the EU for membership anyway as a new nation, so "remaining" is not actually an option.

The largest trading partner (USA) is ready to broker a trade deal immediately with Boris Johnson, so Ireland and the Scots should at least wait till that is done.
#6
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@Greyparrot
The EU is overwhelmingly favorable to the smaller GDP countries, so it's no surprise for Ireland and Scotland to want to remain.
They want to remain because they aren't stupid. There is no advantage to leaving. Right wing news sources have just been engaged in a long standing smear campaign of the EU. 


They would have to petition the EU for membership anyway as a new nation, so "remaining" is not actually an option.
True. But there is no reason to think it would be difficult since they are members right now. 


The largest trading partner (USA) is ready to broker a trade deal immediately with Boris Johnson, so Ireland and the Scots should at least wait till that is done.
Why? There is no reason to think the US-UK trade deal would be better than the current trade deal they have with the US, via the EU. In fact many suspect that it will be much worse. For example the US wants the UK to lower their food standards so they can sell lower quality (potentially unsafe) food to the UK. 

Also, the unionists have now been betrayed by Johnson. He threw them under the bus hard to get a deal. I would imagine there isn't alot of good will towards England at the moment. 
#7
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There is no reason to think the US-UK trade deal would be better than the current trade deal they have with the US, via the EU. In fact many suspect that it will be much worse.

Why? Cause 28 unelected authoritative bureaucrats know what's best for UK more than Boris Johnson? 

Whatever would give you that idea? Some smarmy highbrow supercilious propaganda perhaps?
#8
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@Greyparrot
Why? Cause 28 unelected authoritative bureaucrats know what's best for UK more than Boris Johnson? 
Members of the council are usually cabinet ministers from the country they represent, so they would be elected. And even if they aren't elected, they are selected by the government of that country to represent them. That is how representative democracy works. Please stop pretending it is authoritarian. 

The EU council does not make decisions on it's own. It has to work together with the MEPs. You clearly don't know how the EU actually works. 


#9
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Members of the council are usually cabinet ministers from the country they represent, so they would be elected.

Not by the UK you authority lover.

#10
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@Greyparrot
Not by the UK you authority lover.
What is your point? The UK is one state among many. If they had unilateral control of the council that would be authoritarian. Does Michigan scream about the authoritarian senate because they don't get to pick all 100 senators?

#11
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@HistoryBuff
WTF are you conflating a state with a nation for? UK is way bigger and more culturally unique than any one US state.

How ethnocentric thinking is that?

#12
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@Greyparrot
WTF are you conflating a state with a nation for?
a state is "a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government."

In the american context, a state is analogous to a province or a region. But the word state can also be applied to a nation. Ex Norway is a nation state. 

UK is way bigger and more culturally unique than any one US state.
What is your point? Why would the population of the UK matter? They gain way more by being part of the EU than they have to give up. 

Also, there are big differences between welsh, scotish, irish etc. If you think those differences are super important, then all the more reason each tiny region should be it's own country. 
#13
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@HistoryBuff
All the more reason to drop California into the socialst sea and let the other 49 States get along just fine.
#14
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@Greyparrot
So no response to literally anything that I said. I guess our discussion ends here. 

#15
bmdrocks21
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Ireland for the Irish!

#16
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Although, the only part of Ireland that I care about gained independence. :)
#17
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lol
#18
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@bmdrocks21
Ireland for the Irish!
The problem is that the majority in Northern Ireland don't want to be independent. They want to be part of the UK. Or at least they did before Boris sold them out. We shall see what they want now. 


#19
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As I said afterwards, I don't really like Northern Ireland. They have always wanted to stay as part of the UK. I think they will probably be pretty split on their opinions, but they will likely leave because of their close ties to England.
#20
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@bmdrocks21
England has proven pretty clearly that they don't give a shit about Ireland. They are destroying the UK. Once Scotland and Ireland leave they wont be the UK anymore. Right idiocy is literally destroying their country. 

#21
zedvictor4
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@Imabench
@HistoryBuff
The Scottish Nationalists total vote count on Thursday was completely reflective of the 2014 referendum. So Sturgeon et al certainly have no mandate for another referendum.

Northern Ireland being the fractured region that it is, is a whole different kettle of fish and so to assume any implications regarding Nation Status from Thursdays vote would just be plain foolish. 

And it is only Nationalists who attempt to factionalise societies. Fortunately in the U.K nationalists are still in the minority, especially in the region that you regard as England.

And as for Europe I would suggest that you first take a look at the Nationalist machinations that are occurring at the fringes of the European Union before coming to too many quick and inaccurate conclusions about European Unity.
#22
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@Imabench
Should Ireland and Scotland have votes to secede from the UK?


The sooner the better. These two countries have been sponging off the English  for centuries.  

#23
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@zedvictor4
The Scottish Nationalists total vote count on Thursday was completely reflective of the 2014 referendum. So Sturgeon et al certainly have no mandate for another referendum.
The SNP got 45% of the total votes. Labor got 18.6% The Lib Dems got 9.5%. That means that 73.1% of scotland voted for a party that wants to remain in the EU. Does that mean they all want independence, of course not. But the only way to find out is with a referendum. And since England has screwed them over and is about to drag them out of the EU against their will, it is entirely possible the situation has changed. 

And it is only Nationalists who attempt to factionalise societies. Fortunately in the U.K nationalists are still in the minority, especially in the region that you regard as England.
What are you talking about? The conservative party is the nationalist party. They want to torch their international obligations because they can't serve fish and chips in a newspaper or some nonsense like that. The nationalists have taken over england. 

And as for Europe I would suggest that you first take a look at the Nationalist machinations that are occurring at the fringes of the European Union before coming to too many quick and inaccurate conclusions about European Unity.
I don't believe I ever said that the rest of Europe didn't also have nationalist nutjobs. But England has already fallen for their nationalist nutjob. 
#24
Dr.Franklin
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no, just because the result you wanted didn't work out doesn't mean countries should leave the UK

fucking nonsense
#25
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@Dr.Franklin
no, just because the result you wanted didn't work out doesn't mean countries should leave the UK

fucking nonsense
lol that is the exact argument brexiteers are making. The EU isn't letting them do exactly what they wanted so they are leaving.

Scotland wants to be in the EU. England is the only part of the UK that really wants to leave. But they are dragging Northern Ireland and Scotland with them. Of course they should have the right to decide if they want to separate from England when England obviously doesn't give a shit what they want. 
#26
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@HistoryBuff

Unfortunately I doubt that Scottish Nationalism has much to do with current and future social aspirations.

Similarly neither does Irish or Welsh nationalism,

As is usually the case, nationalism is more often than not based on historical grudges, ergo backward thinking.





#27
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@zedvictor4
Unfortunately I doubt that Scottish Nationalism has much to do with current and future social aspirations.
Similarly neither does Irish or Welsh nationalism,
As is usually the case, nationalism is more often than not based on historical grudges, ergo backward thinking.
Fair enough. Historical grudges certainly play a part. But adding new grudged, like dragging them out of the EU against their will certainly doesn't help. And I would argue just generally being dicks and ignoring what they want is a good way to push them to leave. 
#28
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Actually Wales is the most extremely Brexit of the four, England and NI were equal in the original Brexit vote but NI has altered as it realised it will cause issues with its lack of borders with Ireland.