There is no mystery that bsh1 was a pawn in the game of the DDO Elite, that was not the issue to begin with. Them wanting him removed is not a mystery, anyone can realise this was organised 'vigilantism' as ShabShoral puts it. The real question isn't whether or not the Elite exist, it's why they keep existing and what their mission is.
Thoughts on the bsh1 resignation
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@Annie_ESocialBookworm
Your post was well placed, but the bottom line is this:
Those who feel the need to either trivialize what bsh1 was engaged in (e.g., Castin), or white knight to his defense (e.g., TUF aka Lunatic or whatever his name is) discredit themselves by presuming that it is appropriate for a 24 year old to tell a 16 year old that if he "wants to be a big boy he has to bend over for daddy."
People lose their careers over less.
The context I will not go into now, though, it is not as if I am unable or unwilling to do so. I certainly am able and willing, though I see that the costs of that context would outweigh the likely benefits. The costs would be personal and would affect other people whose personal information they have not given consent for release, while the benefit would at most be to "one up" TUF who is acting like an obnoxious jackass. Presumably, because TUF even went so far as to create a disingenuous and misleading debate over the subject, he is going to continue to be an obnoxious jackass because this is now more about "winning" for him than it is about the truth. Wouldn't be the first time. I suppose some things never change.
"Debate me, bro! What are you, chicken? Don't put your money where your mouth is? Coward!"
Blah blah blah... Sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Let's suppose a high school speech coach told his sixteen year old team captain that? I'll bet something similar happened at Bronx Science. End of career.
Suppose a high school teacher told his favorite student that? End of career.
Suppose, moreover, that a comment like that was made by a boss to his teenage employee? That's the kind of thing that can create legal problems the depths of which would unfold over many, many months if not years. Oh, and almost certain career ender there, too.
But we are supposed to look the other way because some people think it was "just a joke"? It is not "just a joke" when a teacher, coach, or any other adult in a position of authority directs sexual innuendo like that at someone else. And to be clear, it is the relationship that matters more than the age differential. TUF can bitch and moan about how unfair he thinks all of this is, how blown out of proportion it is, etc. Doesn't change the fact that bsh1 was out of line.
Moreover, the issue is not about "other people's" intentions. Annie's intentions are whatever they were. Nothing she said was false, yet she has been attacked and maligned, her motives impugned, and she has been painted as irrational, a reactionary, or worse.... by people who think they have a more informed perspective than someone who knows bsh1 better than, anyone else on this site with maybe two exceptions (neither of whom are TUF)?
A less pig-headed person might have asked "Hmm maybe there' something going on here that I perhaps don't know about. This looks like a situation that involves more than may be meting the eye. I better not risk making a jackass out of myself and stay out of it, unless I have something productive to say."
But that didn't happen. Instead Mr White Knight rushed in to do the white knight thing... not even really white knight-ing... much worse in reality, but enough has been said on this issue.
What Annie did is beyond reproach, and her motives follow in kind. Anyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but impugn their own moral character by contending otherwise.
I think part of the reason the Bsh comment triggered the reaction it did, is that not only was it a wildly inappropriate thing for an adult moderator to say to a minor, but he also made just about the worst sexual comment to a minor that somebody in his position could make.
Think about it. What’s the whole “daddy” thing about? The fantasy of a powerful man using that power to exploit a subordinate. And the head moderator called himself daddy and told a kid to bend over.
That said, I don’t think he meant it as anything other than a crude joke, and as far as I know he has no history of grooming minors. I wish him the best, truly—but it’s probably good for him to at least take a break from this site.
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@RationalMadman
Am I part of the DDO Elite?
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@Annie_ESocialBookworm
No, and you are too emotional to ever be part of it. They prefer those that are cool-headed and clearly motivated by popularity.
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@Annie_ESocialBookworm
I just can't pick a favorite, but my favorites list includes Little Shop of Horrors, Fiddler on the Roof, Grease, Rocky Horror Picture Show, Jesus Christ Superstar, Willy Wonka (Gene Wilder version), The Sound of Music, The Phantom of the Opera, and more Disney movies than I could name without posting tl;dr levels of text.
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@RationalMadman
Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. I cri.
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@thett3
If bsh1 had simply said "Yes, what I said was wrong and I should not have said that." we wouldn't be here. But instead, he refused to take responsibility, made excuses (only a joke, he has problems with his family, his other problems, blah blah blah) that have absolutely nothing to do with what mattered here.
I don't see a way for him to remain a moderator here or anywhere else with any credibility after, in a position of authority, making a comment like that, about sexual exploitation by way of an abuse of authority. But, he can return to the community and re-integrate himself when he accepts that what he said was wrong -- and not before. And I don't just mean some passing statement, either. He needs to understand that you can't do something like that and why.
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@Castin
I'm going to see Rocky Horror Picture Show soon! The Sound of Music and The Phantom of the Opera are good!
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@Annie_ESocialBookworm
They are rarely ever the 'bride' too. Airmax was an exception. They prefer to either be entirely non-officially powerful or at most 'low' on the totem pole of official ranks. This enables them to continually avoid backlash and keep those in power as the disposable ones who continually rely on the non-changing group that influence who rises and falls above and below them.
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@RationalMadman
But the real question is - how long will it take me to catch up in the forums to you :O
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@coal
I agree with everything you said. And to his credit, while his knee jerk reaction was to defend himself he eventually acknowledged his mistake. There’s a middle ground between saying something ridiculous like this being the result of PC culture and thinking that Bsh is automatically a monster or a pedophile because of one comment that is probably one of the worst things he has said in his life.
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@coal
Those who feel the need to either trivialize what bsh1 was engaged in (e.g., Castin), or white knight to his defense (e.g., TUF aka Lunatic or whatever his name is) discredit themselves by presuming that it is appropriate for a 24 year old to tell a 16 year old that if he "wants to be a big boy he has to bend over for daddy."
I feel like over the years I've seen you talk so much about your sexuality and preferences without regard to what others think. Between hangouts, just normal forum play and banter, talking about your twink boys or being top/bottom, you flaunt your sexuality almost constantly. It comes off as more hypocritical coming from you of all people.
The context I will not go into now, though, it is not as if I am unable or unwilling to do so. I certainly am able and willing, though I see that the costs of that context would outweigh the likely benefits. The costs would be personal and would affect other people whose personal information they have not given consent for release, while the benefit would at most be to "one up" TUF who is acting like an obnoxious jackass. Presumably, because TUF even went so far as to create a disingenuous and misleading debate over the subject, he is going to continue to be an obnoxious jackass because this is now more about "winning" for him than it is about the truth. Wouldn't be the first time. I suppose some things never change."Debate me, bro! What are you, chicken? Don't put your money where your mouth is? Coward!"
You realize this is a debate site right? Your nature seems to have always been to ignore the fundamentals of debate and make it some self righteous moral thing. If a subject you feel is too touchy, you just label it as "wrong" and won't give reasons why something is wrong, you just say it is and refuse to prove how and feel vindicated in your position. You did the same back with ADOL on DDO. You voiced your opinion on this matter, I voiced mine. You didn't like mine and rather than pointing out specific flaws in my logic or try to prove me wrong you just undermine the whole premise by saying I am wrong. You aren't a debater, and this type of behavior proves why it's hard to take you seriously. You can't defend your ideas, you are just offended when others have different ones.
Let's suppose a high school speech coach told his sixteen year old team captain that? I'll bet something similar happened at Bronx Science. End of career. Suppose a high school teacher told his favorite student that? End of career. Suppose, moreover, that a comment like that was made by a boss to his teenage employee? That's the kind of thing that can create legal problems the depths of which would unfold over many, many months if not years. Oh, and almost certain career ender there, too.
None of these situations are remotely close to reality though. Bsh isn't a teacher, or in a paid position above anyone. He was having friendly banter with another individual on a website that most people choose to stick around for social networking purposes.
But we are supposed to look the other way because some people think it was "just a joke"? It is not "just a joke" when a teacher, coach, or any other adult in a position of authority directs sexual innuendo like that at someone else. And to be clear, it is the relationship that matters more than the age differential. TUF can bitch and moan about how unfair he thinks all of this is, how blown out of proportion it is, etc. Doesn't change the fact that bsh1 was out of line.
I think it is fair, because bsh chose his own repercussions. You are exaggerating my feelings on the subject to match yours, which seem to be rather hysteric. Regardless comparing this to the teacher or coach is not accurate so this is irrelevant.
Moreover, the issue is not about "other people's" intentions. Annie's intentions are whatever they were. Nothing she said was false, yet she has been attacked and maligned, her motives impugned, and she has been painted as irrational, a reactionary, or worse.... by people who think they have a more informed perspective than someone who knows bsh1 better than, anyone else on this site with maybe two exceptions (neither of whom are TUF)?
I haven't attacked annie at all, I think she is overly passionate sure, but I can agree to dis-agree with her.
A less pig-headed person might have asked "Hmm maybe there' something going on here that I perhaps don't know about. This looks like a situation that involves more than may be meting the eye. I better not risk making a jackass out of myself and stay out of it, unless I have something productive to say."
If there's more to this than what meets the eye, there are multiple other people who are also out of the loop. If you have some other evidence to suggest bsh is a pedophile, all we have is that thread, which is definitely not an indication of predatory intentions.
But that didn't happen. Instead Mr White Knight rushed in to do the white knight thing... not even really white knight-ing... much worse in reality, but enough has been said on this issue.
It's funny you think I am white knighting him as if I wouldn't take the same stance on this if it were another person in the same situation. I don't even think bsh considers me as a friend, nor does he ever respond to anything I say. Regardless I think the outrage towards him is pretty unjustified in the sense of accusations of him being a predator and having harmful intentions towards minors. If you want to light him up for being an un-professional mod, that's another thing.
I expect another post pretending like you aren't talking to me so you can avoid direct argumentation. I've been arguing with you off and on since 2013. I can read you like a book sir.
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@ShabShoral
Pinning this as an example “PC Culture” is wildly reductionist
Ignoring everything I've said except this one thing is wildly reductionist. I guess we're even.
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@Vader
Leaderboards do not symbolize inequity. Virt has about 900 forum posts and he is in HoF. leaderboards are only an illusion to class in your weird and wild head
By arguing against inequality you are giving an argument for inequality. Virtuosos is not equal to others comparing forum posts and Virutoso wasn't equal to people when he was voted on in the HoF. I am taking the position you are ignorant or intentionally. Guess feelings comes before reason for you.
What are you even alluding here. I did only a certain amount of times. You did 1.8k times 1.8k > 50
Now if I go down this you have to admit you are being arbitrary or you are inconsistent. For some reason me doing some x amount of times is bad but you doing it less than x amount of time is not bad. The question of course where do you draw the line? I await another feelings that is not well thought through.
I never disliked you, you disliked me because I told you that spamming to 3k is not quality posts.
I show you proof that you hate me then you decide to say no you do without proving anything. Please come back with facts instead of feelings.
I have even complimented you and have engaged in memes with you, and that is a high praise
Saying this doesn't change that you hate aspects of me which you did make it clear in the link I gave. That is if I agree that you were being geniune when you praised me but are being genuine about a backpedaling of your dislike towards me.
That proclaimation is a defense because YOU initiated me to respond to it as a defense.
I am convinced you do not know what you talk about. When I ask questions I ask the person to defend themselves. What part of that don't you understand? You basically said here a defense is whenever I say it to be case. How about me saying it is a defense? Please tell me how this wasn't a special pleading fallacy.
It doesn't make sense, that's why I am talking past it
This has got to be a joke. I have clearly demonstrated my side. You didn't say how it was wrong then you say I don't make sense. You have got to be living in a different reality where you value your own personal feelings before having a reasonable conversation.
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@Vader
If you geniunely think I hate you, please PM me. I do not hate you...Just cause we disagree does not mean I hate anyoneI do not even hate RM, and he is arguably my biggest rival besides Goldtop.
You have already stated it to be the case from the link I gave. You didn't even acknowledge what you said so why should I believe you now?
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@Wylted
Keep your thoughts to yourself if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute. No conspiracy theory is not informative. You are just muddying the water instead of actually talking about what is going on.It's my thoughts. fuck u
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@Annie_ESocialBookworm
I would like to thank Castin for recognizing that he made a mistake.
I am adamant you are leaving out things that do not suit your agenda. Just this quote that you linked to proves this to be the case
"One ill-considered uncomfortable joke on a message board, made by someone who momentarily forgot the other person's age and didn't even have it consciously in mind when he made the joke, has been compared to literal and deliberate child abuse, predatory grooming, and real statutory rape."
This clearly shows that you do not care about the context instead only if bsh1 did bad so I will complain about it. Please tell me how you didn't miss clear information that Castin did state here.
Inappropriate comments like this shouldn't be made, period.
Islam is nothing close to peace so taking advice someone who preaches something worse than the Old Testament is laughable. Objective morality doesn't exist. Your God has yet to be proven to exist.
as a progressive/liberal queer. I put Islam as a placeholder in lieu of me not having figured out a firm religious stance and Islam is most of what I have known for my life.
Really bad placeholder to have. Please go do some reading if you even cared about who you are as a progressive, liberal queer. Almost everything you are is antithetical to Religion you support. It is like saying I believe in free speech but I also believe in Islam. The problem of course is that almost any Muslim majority country across the world doesn't allow you to freely talk about Islam. This is under the assumption they are following their Religion properly. My case would be better than yours because I am not denying every single Muslim across the world's opinion to make my position clear and the Religious book would be in favor of my claim.
Furthermore, my lack of forum posts or contribution to the site has no relevance to the moral responsibility of calling out gross behaviour.
Please stop preaching as some sort of good person or authority figure. You are not good for supporting that Religion. You are not an authority figure. All we have to go on is who you are on this site. All I see is less than 100 forum post user. Am I supposed to take a person who hardly even uses the site opinion seriously? No would be the best answer because if I took your opinion seriously then any other new user would also have that same treatment. It would be bad to understand what would be best for active users.
Everything else I didn't make a comment on would be stated as feelings as in things I can't change. If you want me to actually talk about the other claims actually add in facts instead of your feelings that I can't argue against.
If you geniunely think I hate you, please PM me. I do not hate you...Just cause we disagree does not mean I hate anyoneI do not even hate RM, and he is arguably my biggest rival besides Goldtop.You have already stated it to be the case from the link I gave. You didn't even acknowledge what you said so why should I believe you now?
One link did not mean I didn't like you. I mean if Virt said that I would say that is the stupidest thing I have heard, if anyone said that quite frankly
My mom gets on my nerves, I still love her. Just because someone gets on my nerves =/= hate
My mom gets on my nerves, I still love her. Just because someone gets on my nerves =/= hate
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@TheRealNihilist
Above
Leaderboards do not symbolize inequity. Virt has about 900 forum posts and he is in HoF. leaderboards are only an illusion to class in your weird and wild headBy arguing against inequality you are giving an argument for inequality. Virtuosos is not equal to others comparing forum posts and Virutoso wasn't equal to people when he was voted on in the HoF. I am taking the position you are ignorant or intentionally. Guess feelings comes before reason for you.
You reference leaderboards as inequality, and I countered with a person w/ -1k forum posts in HoF. The HoF is not inequity because they still are treated like a normal user, but there name is plastered on a site. Whoopie
What are you even alluding here. I did only a certain amount of times. You did 1.8k times 1.8k > 50Now if I go down this you have to admit you are being arbitrary or you are inconsistent. For some reason me doing some x amount of times is bad but you doing it less than x amount of time is not bad. The question of course where do you draw the line? I await another feelings that is not well thought through.
At a single time, 1000 is the limit. On seperate occassions, about 300-400
I never disliked you, you disliked me because I told you that spamming to 3k is not quality posts.I show you proof that you hate me then you decide to say no you do without proving anything. Please come back with facts instead of feelings.
Responded
I have even complimented you and have engaged in memes with you, and that is a high praiseSaying this doesn't change that you hate aspects of me which you did make it clear in the link I gave. That is if I agree that you were being geniune when you praised me but are being genuine about a backpedaling of your dislike towards me.
Genuine friendship is key. If my friend wore an outfit that was vulgar, obscene, and idiotic, I would tell to take it off you look stupid. Or if they wore something really stupid, I would tell them that. I also give praise when praise need be. Just because I have been genuine with you does not mean I hate you
That proclaimation is a defense because YOU initiated me to respond to it as a defense.I am convinced you do not know what you talk about. When I ask questions I ask the person to defend themselves. What part of that don't you understand? You basically said here a defense is whenever I say it to be case. How about me saying it is a defense? Please tell me how this wasn't a special pleading fallacy.
Wrong. You said, why are these people conducting everthing with little posts. I told you they were from DDO
It doesn't make sense, that's why I am talking past itThis has got to be a joke. I have clearly demonstrated my side. You didn't say how it was wrong then you say I don't make sense. You have got to be living in a different reality where you value your own personal feelings before having a reasonable conversation.
sigh
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@Vader
One link did not mean I didn't like you. I mean if Virt said that I would say that is the stupidest thing I have heard, if anyone said that quite franklyMy mom gets on my nerves, I still love her. Just because someone gets on my nerves =/= hate
Why would I believe you? You could've take the message down but it is still there. I am guessing you disliking your mother is not on tape so if your mother or you don't hold grudges then it is forgotten. That is not even talking about your intentions. Your intent doesn't matter. When someone says this it is probably a showing of dislike to another person but here I am supposed this rare case where you don't actually dislike me but you said it and you haven't asked for it to be taken down.
You reference leaderboards as inequality, and I countered with a person w/ -1k forum posts in HoF. The HoF is not inequity because they still are treated like a normal user, but there name is plastered on a site. Whoopie
Why are you talking about treatment when it comes to the HoF? The Hall of Fame is an event congratulating the best of this site through votes. This just so happen people voted for more than another which means they are not equal to another. HoF goes against equality because there was a winner not a draw.
At a single time, 1000 is the limit. On seperate occassions, about 300-400
Guess you went down the arbitrary route which ultimately in both scenarios leads to like I said before "another feelings that is not well thought through." Just remove the plural in feeling then it fits right in.
Genuine friendship is key. If my friend wore an outfit that was vulgar, obscene, and idiotic, I would tell to take it off you look stupid. Or if they wore something really stupid, I would tell them that. I also give praise when praise need be. Just because I have been genuine with you does not mean I hate you
Personal anecdote. I have in no way discrediting or agreeing with this. It is just your feelings. I have nothing to argue against here.
Wrong. You said, why are these people conducting everthing with little posts. I told you they were from DDO
I accused two users of something and asked them to defend themselves with the question I asked. You answered it thus mounting a defense for them. This logic is sound and I have yet to see you actually challenge it. Let me try and make it even more simple:
A defense against an accusation is a defense.
sigh
You have shown that you don't actually argue against the points instead talk right past it. When you do otherwise you have shown that your side is arbitrary or filled with anecdotes. This entire thing is a waste of time because of how incompetent you are at understanding what I just said. I need a second opinion in pretty much any conversation here when we have people here feign ignorance to an obvious thing that they did.
Why would I believe you? You could've take the message down but it is still there. I am guessing you disliking your mother is not on tape so if your mother or you don't hold grudges then it is forgotten. That is not even talking about your intentions. Your intent doesn't matter. When someone says this it is probably a showing of dislike to another person but here I am supposed this rare case where you don't actually dislike me but you said it and you haven't asked for it to be taken down.
No I am not going to take a message down. If you don't take my word, then that's fine then. I have done nothing wrong. You are stirring up controversy that was never there in the first place. Don't believe me, that's fine
Why are you talking about treatment when it comes to the HoF? The Hall of Fame is an event congratulating the best of this site through votes. This just so happen people voted for more than another which means they are not equal to another. HoF goes against equality because there was a winner not a draw.
Life is about winners and losers. You can not just claim that the Hall Of Fame is biased. You got an equal chance to get in. Everyone did, arguable the mods got a better chance, but because they are mods
I accused two users of something and asked them to defend themselves with the question I asked. You answered it thus mounting a defense for them. This logic is sound and I have yet to see you actually challenge it. Let me try and make it even more simple:A defense against an accusation is a defense.
You are accusing them of actions, not who they are. If I tell you who they are, it is not defending them, but stating a factual note
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@TheRealNihilist
Above...i keep forgetting the ping
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@TheRealNihilist
I am someone who doesn't hold grudges unless you severely hurt me. Grudges are fucked up... that is a moral value I kept throughout my life
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@Vader
Don't talk to him. He is crazy l. You are just encouraging his ramblings. He has reading comprehension problems and trouble with putting together a coherent thought
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@thett3
A less pig-headed person might have asked "Hmm maybe there' something going on here that I perhaps don't know about. This looks like a situation that involves more than may be meting the eye. I better not risk making a jackass out of myself and stay out of it, unless I have something productive to say."
That is the part that bothers me most. Annie and bsh1 seem to have been close friends prior to this and maybe still so. She is his confidant. People don't even have the full context of this, and are to stubborn to see that. They should all be saying to themselves.
"Perhaps there is something going on here I am not privy to"
Yet they continue ue to think they have the full picture and malign annie. I don't have the full picture, but I know more than they do, and I know that this joke on it's own is worthy of the response it got, but that the response is even more justified for reasons some of which they are unaware of and some of which I am unaware of.
I could easily destroy TUF on a debate on this issue, but it's inappropriate. It would harm people who have trusted me with personal inormation in private., that I would not have the right to reveal.
It is sad people even need to be told there is more to the picture than what is publicly known, when it should be obvious and they should have discreetly picked up on and shut up about
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@Wylted
I don't have a problem with him but seems to assume I do, whatever. I got better things to do like school and weightlifting and writing
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@Vader
Yeah keep lifting my nigga. You need to make up for being ugly so you can lose your virginity. I'm actually pretty sexy and slay pussy so I am just lifting to fight aging. You're fighting looks and personality so your fight is much harder. Keep at it kid. One day you'll slay pussy like I do. You could maybe start slaying now, if you lower your standards.
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@Vader
No I am not going to take a message down. If you don't take my word, then that's fine then. I have done nothing wrong. You are stirring up controversy that was never there in the first place. Don't believe me, that's fine
Nothing important to say still have 2 lines of writing.
Life is about winners and losers. You can not just claim that the Hall Of Fame is biased. You got an equal chance to get in. Everyone did, arguable the mods got a better chance, but because they are mods
Doesn't discredit what I said and a false allegation. There is a different between inequality in the HoF as in there is a winner and losers compared to biases. A Winner and losers is an inequality. I can't believe you misinterpreted this while also lying.
You are accusing them of actions, not who they are. If I tell you who they are, it is not defending them, but stating a factual note
Guess a defendant in court should say I am not defending myself I am stating straight facts. Lol.
I am someone who doesn't hold grudges unless you severely hurt me. Grudges are fucked up... that is a moral value I kept throughout my life
Another meaningless sentence. I don't care about your personal feelings because I have no way verifying them to be true like with your anecdotes.