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@Vader
Above, also what does DP1 Oro mean
---MCU Heroes Mafia: Endgame---
Posts
Total:
126
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@Vader
No, your first read was DP2, not DP3. I said BEFORE DP3
I'm talking about the claim: "I got cucked DP3 bc role claim"
You didn't. Everyone was FOSing you way before warren claimed.
As far as DP2 is concerned, AROSE TRd you, yes.
You were null/scumleaning to oro:
PIE Fos'd you:
Mhraman put you on his null/scum list:
warren null's you:
In fact - and I'll even take the hit on this - if it wasn't for me going after Wylted, you'd have died DP2 most likely. So please, spin more bullshit about you being town-read DP2.
I said based off of DP2, DP1 again. Not hearing correctly
Well, again, I wasn't talking about the "pre-DP3" claim, I was talking about why you gained suspicion DP3. You were well under suspicion before warren's claim. And, as shown about, were highly suspected DP2 by anyone that bothered to provide a read. You want to look at DP1, then? Sure.
oro has you somewhat near his Town side, like... five seconds into the game, by the end of DP1 you've dropped a slot. Also, you only started as high as you did because of your early activity.
You start out null with AROSE, then he "randomly" reads you as Town.
Lean-town with water
warren doesn't like your hedging on Ragnar (good call by warren, btw)
So exactly 1 person legitimately read you as town. DP1.
And I pulled off that stunt because you believed it. I knew it was outed, my strat was to distract
But... I didn't believe it. I never believed it. I assumed Grey had some hidden knowledge and you were just acting stupid.
I tried paving the way for Ragnar by causing distractions. That was my strat
That isn't a strat. It's literally the bottom-barrel level of mafia play. Anyone capable of typing gibberish can cause a distraction.
He was never confirmed town. He gave us a taser and a BP vest. he only gave one legit answer, sorry... he was not confirmed town
Do you read, bro. Look at the linked post (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2816/post_links/118416) you're talking about PIE who, at that point, was DEAD and flipped Town, yet you're arguing that he set you up.
That was oro's idea. I followed through
Eventually. You noticeably stalled (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2816/post_links/118445)
DISTRACTIONS
See above. Distracting is 0-tier level play.
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@warren42
Warren needs more kudos, I think. He consistently scum-read Supa from the start. If it wasn't for the whole replacement stuff which confused a lot of people, the game probably would have ended a lot sooner.
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@oromagi
What was the point of having us all do "I win with the town" DP2?
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@drafterman
You could not have confirmed town oro because of the true fact he gave mafia 2/3 gadgets
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@drafterman
I WAS FUCKED! THAT'S WHY I DISTRACTED AND IT WORKED LOL
As far as balance is concerned we had:
Town:
50% Roleblocker
Bulletproof
Gadget-Giver (1x Lie Detecter, 1x Roleblocker, 1x Doctor)
Watcher
Gladiator/Silencer
Vote-Giver
Messenger
Weak Hider
Role giver
Mafia:
Odd-night Strongman
1x Governor
Ascetic
50% role blocker, vote-giver, messenger, gladiator/silencer, ascetic, and role giver are null. They either have no real impact on this game or are as likely to benefit/harm town as they are mafia.
Likewise the gadgets are null because of their ability to end up in Mafia hands. Indeed, 2/3 of then did end up in Mafia hands.
That leaves:
Town:
Bulletproof
Watcher
Weak Hider
Mafia:
Odd-night Strongman
1x Governor
Given that weak hider dies if hitting mafia and dies if their target dies, and mafia has a strong man, the net result of the weak hider should be expected to be an extra death for the Mafia. Weak Hider leans mafia.
That leaves:
Town:
Bulletproof
Watcher
Mafia:
Odd-night Strongman
1x Governor
Strong-man should counter BP, so in the end we have Watcher vs. 1x Governor.
Watcher, effectively, should only be good once. Once they out their results, they are a threat and mafia should kill them. So watcher can get a single mafia killed (before being Nk target themselves) and governor can save one mafia lynch. It's a wash.
I call this game pretty damned balanced. The problem here was choice of mafia Nks. Simply put, you killed people that didn't matter and you didn't exploit your abilities.
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@Vader
You could not have confirmed town oro because of the true fact he gave mafia 2/3 gadgets
He was 99% town because of his CC of Cog. His role has nothing to do with it.
And your play didn't work. You died. And your team lost.
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@drafterman
Oh wow thanks!! I think it would've been slightly better if hider either wasn't weak or had some other type of limitation but yeah
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@Speedrace
Making him a normal hider is actually weaker, since he can't confirm anyone.
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@drafterman
My team lost because Water follow Rag
This was my first time leading a mafia charge. I only played scum 4x. Once in DDO with TUF, he lead. I played a solo maf, was lynched early cause Water outed himself and the scum team, and this one. That's it. First time I have played a leader role in mafia legit on the site
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@Vader
Your team lost because of poor NK choices and your poor DP play. Water wasn't a tracker, he was a watcher and he watched Grey. And yeah, that's partially luck as mafia should have used the strong kill on me, who probably wouldn't have been watched because I was outed BP. But I think that would only delay things, really.
I'm not sure what the purpose of your Mafia resume is supposed to mean. If you're suggesting that you're still learning and are inexperienced, then I agree and people are trying to tell you where you made mistakes so you can improve your play. The appropriate response would be to acknowledge that and heed the lessons. Instead you're like you were significantly town read (false) and that this "distraction" was some sort of good play.
It wasn't.
The distracting stuff wasn't a good play. It didn't "work."
By "work" I mean bring your team closer to winning the game. All it did was delay your death one day, max. All you did was engage in a 1-for-1 trade which hurt your team. Mafia's disadvantage is numbers. 1-for-1 trades increase that disadvantage. The only distraction that help your team was DP2, where I pushed the lynch on Wylted. You had nothing to do with that and if it wasn't for my distraction, you would have been the DP2 lynch.
I was actually a more pro-mafia player than you were.
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@Wylted
I was screaming that in my head. He should’ve died the second he said he didn’t receive my message
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@drafterman
Sorry for all the useless OMGUSSING of warren.
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@Greyparrot
I want to know what was in the message, lol.
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@drafterman
What would have been the causus belli of a lynch in DP2 besides the letter scenario... nothing. There was no way to prove that
I literally said to attack drafter in the NP3 because of perfect kill but I was over rided. I said to kill Water but I was over rided. At that point, I cared about making a distraction at that point in time.
I realized now that looking back, i should have claimed a cop role. I am still pissed.
That is my town play. My scum play is not different than my town play. You have not played in enough mafia games with me as town to know my play
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@A-R-O-S-E
"Sadly no one. The person I am most suspicious of is a paranoid gun owner (would that be murder suicide, or how does that play out?). And my previous absolute certainty turned out to be bust (Wylted... his over the top insults at Cog.)"^^ Ragnar's 300 iq play
For obvious reasons I could not say so in game, but thank you so much!
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@Vader
What would have been the causus belli of a lynch in DP2 besides the letter scenario... nothing. There was no way to prove that
"Causus belli"? "Proof"? Dude. This is mafia. That stuff rarely matters. This ideal where there are reports and cogent arguments is actually a rarity. It is mostly gut feelings. If you want to understand why people were gunning for you DP2, go back to the post where I helpfully highlighted all of the FOS on you and dig in yourself.
I literally said to attack drafter in the NP3 because of perfect kill but I was over rided. I said to kill Water but I was over rided. At that point, I cared about making a distraction at that point in time.
Okay, this reads like you were upset you weren't being listened to, so you YOLO'd out of the game. That's fine. That's a reason. It's not a good reason. It's not good play, but it's understandable. And that's fine. But don't act like it was some master move in 10D hyper-chess.
I realized now that looking back, i should have claimed a cop role. I am still pissed.
Ah, and this is key, which I'll get to below*
That is my town play. My scum play is not different than my town play. You have not played in enough mafia games with me as town to know my play
I really don't get into that kind of meta game. The ideal is for people to always appear to be pro-town, a consequence of which is that their scum play is indistinguishable from their town play (the alternative is that their scum and town play are indistinguishable, but it's all anti-town, which is just stupid).
My point with that question was that, if your scum and town play aren't different, then telling us what your Town play is is pointless, because then it's also your Scum play. It would only be relevant if you played differently as Town and Scum, which would still be irrelevant because the whole point of improving in this game is to improve your play so you eliminate such tells.
* - Coda
Yes, your claim is really the root-cause analysis here. Firstly, there was no need to fake claim anything. The only person that really needed to fake claim was Ragnar and he had the best claim you could have in that situation. Neither you nor Cog had to fake claim anything (other than your affiliation, of course).
Why you chose to do so will boggle the minds of scholars for centuries.
Then, having decided you needed to fake claim, you choose PGO, an inherently scummy fake claim. In my day, PGO was always regarded as a scum claim because it was seen as an attempt to divert night actions away from a player. "No, don't investigate me, you'll DIE!!" It was so scummy that it was almost to the point of being policy lynch material. Get rid of the non-confirmable player early so we don't have to worry about them.
PGO is a bluff. It's a bluff because you get called out the second anyone suspects you enough to risk it.
You bluffed with a shaky, unnecessary claim and got called out on it. And your response was to generate negative attention on yourself with *jazz hands* "DISTRACTION"
The second you got called out on not being a PGO, you were dead. All your "DISTRACTION" did was delay it by a day. And if you want some credit, yes, you got a mislynch out of the deal. You earned a Town death you wouldn't have otherwise have gotten if you just rolled over and died. It didn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but you did get that for your team.
Likewise, if you build a house out of shit bricks and hang air freshener around, it's going to stink less than if you didn't hang the air freshener. But you're still living in a house of shit bricks and it would have be better not to.
A couple comments...
This was my first full game (the one time I played before, I was lynched DP1 for being a noob and not useful to town). I was genuinely learning the game, without much understanding of what is and isn't a power role.
My social tactic was to play things straight, and believe that will be my SOP. I kept seeing town getting needlessly poisoned by lies. I think I had only three lies throughout the game? First that I was a roll which could visit people at night (needed due to being spotted), second when there was the mass lie detector test (to which I accurately predicted there there was a different gadget anyway), and third at the end when I figured Water would spot me so I baited him into acting incredibly scummy (which I pulled off while enough that the executioner needed a night to sleep on the decision... had that one gambit by me worked, Mafia would have won with a double night kill when people thought they had an auto win due to a pair of invincibles).
IMO Cog did not accidentally step on a land mine, he committed suicide. He never even logged into the team chat (I can guess he received a PM knowing about Nick Fury and Clint Barton, but the odds of the main character of the Marvel universe not being in game, followed by him not being around to defend his claim, it seemed to be a reference to Tony Stark's death).
I do thank Supa and Speed for being my main teachers in this game. It was not until later in the game that I pushed back during disagreements with my teammate (such as Doctor Strange's power not being used, which would have allowed him to carry out the first NK, removing all risk of Supa or I being spotted). NKing Pie the third night when his information was already out was a weird one, given that Supa actually pulled it off and stayed alive a whole extra day after being outed by the mailman.
...And I am out of time. I'll post more later, and hopefully finish reading everything that was posted.
...And I am out of time. I'll post more later, and hopefully finish reading everything that was posted.
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@Vader
You're being dramatic. Actions require TWO confirmations. You could've just held yours if you didn't agree, but you didn't. You can't be overrided by one person.I literally said to attack drafter in the NP3 because of perfect kill but I was over rided. I said to kill Water but I was over rided. At that point, I cared about making a distraction at that point in time.
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@Barney
I should've held on to the twilight a little longer to let you say something, I ended it as soon as Supa said no so you didn't get a chance to do anything
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@Barney
A couple comments...This was my first full game (the one time I played before, I was lynched DP1 for being a noob and not useful to town). I was genuinely learning the game, without much understanding of what is and isn't a power role.
You did well. You participated and I don't really think you gained any real suspicion except for the last phase when it was basically POE.
My social tactic was to play things straight, and believe that will be my SOP. I kept seeing town getting needlessly poisoned by lies. I think I had only three lies throughout the game? First that I was a roll which could visit people at night (needed due to being spotted), second when there was the mass lie detector test (to which I accurately predicted there there was a different gadget anyway), and third at the end when I figured Water would spot me so I baited him into acting incredibly scummy (which I pulled off while enough that the executioner needed a night to sleep on the decision... had that one gambit by me worked, Mafia would have won with a double night kill when people thought they had an auto win due to a pair of invincibles).
Your claim was the best claim you could have really for that role. But it would ultimately come to bite you back since you claimed a verifiable role that would never be verified since you couldn't kill separately from the mafia NK. But Vig isn't a role people necessarily want to be verified. I think the NP1 NK vs. AROSE worked in your favor.
Lying as little as possible is the best strategy, IMO. I know a lot of people like to do wild and crazy gambits, but in the end I feel these just generate confusion more than anything else. In a game where the only thing that necessarily separates Town and Mafia is the fact that Mafia have to lie, then the less you lie the less likely you are to get caught in a lie.
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@drafterman
You have not played in enough mafia games with me as town to know my play
No offense as well but, you can't say pre DP2 letter shenanigan behavior was inherently scummy on my part because(pardon my French) you have no fucking clue what my town play is. My DP1 and pre DP2 letter was not scummy. You only read scum cause I did not announce my role. In a normal maf game, that's my play
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@Vader
No offense as well but, you can't say pre DP2 letter shenanigan behavior was inherently scummy on my part because(pardon my French) you have no fucking clue what my town play is. My DP1 and pre DP2 letter was not scummy. You only read scum cause I did not announce my role. In a normal maf game, that's my play
If that's your normal play, then your normal play is scummy. I don't need to know your town play to recognize your play as scummy. If that's the case then you need to work on your game. I'm trying to give you advice here but you want to keep pushing that you're playing some advanced galaxy-brain maneuvers here.
I didn't put you on my scum list till DP3:
I provided my reason here:
Note anything missing? Yeah, not a single peep about this letter nonsense or anything about announcing your role. And this isn't the first time you've accused me of saying stuff I didn't:
In addition to the previous reasons for FOSing you, the primary reason became, and remained, the fact that warren counter claimed you. The only time I talked about the letter thing was in response to you bringing it up.
Take the L, jot down some lesson's learned, and improve your game. You can't spin this as some infallible play on your part, blaming your teammates and game design.
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@drafterman
2 lessons for me.
1) Stop omgussing
2) Lynch all liars
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@drafterman
Also,
3) drafter is the best player.
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@drafterman
It's really a shame wylted and warren went balls deep into the "Mod confirms Drafter as scum" train.
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@Greyparrot
RIGHT, I TOLD them he wasn't confirmed but whatever
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@Greyparrot
What's funny is I was on mobile and accidentally deleted that message from Speed, so I don't know what he sent me. He could have actually sent me the scum names but I would have never saw it.
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@Greyparrot
😂😂, wow that's awesome