Why Are Theists Dumber?

Author: Willows

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#1
Willows
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Research has shown that theists tend to have a lower IQ than atheists.

The meta-analysis explains:
"......intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma. Second, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs. Third, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices."

Surely, it stands to reason that anyone who maintains a quirky belief based on irrational, superstitious nonsense will need to shut himself or herself from any conflicting information thereby stunting intellectual development.........

#2
ethang5
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@DebateArt.com
@Willows
20+ flame-bait posts in six hours to the religion board alone is spamming.

What? Did you get banned again at the site you were infecting?

Trolling will not be welcomed here willows. Reported.

#3
vagabond
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Told ya so. bwuahahahahahahaha
#4
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@vagabond
Boss   is that you ?
It's you hey.  Good day sir.
#5
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@Deb-8-a-bull
More and more atheist bullies are finding our hidden lair
#6
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@janesix
God sent me.
#7
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Yeah it's the other bul, good to see you mate.
#8
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Ooh the fear is building, how wonderful.
#9
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@vagabond
why are you scared bully?
#10
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It doesn't take a brilliant mind to know that The Truth exists.


It takes a haughty mind to deny The Truth.


And so the "wise" are made into fools.

#11
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@Mopac
It doesn't take a brilliant mind to know that The Truth exists.
It takes a haughty mind to deny The Truth.
And so the "wise" are made into fools.
You cannot be all that wise if you can't understand why your statements aren't taken seriously.

No one is going to deny the existence of reality.   But I do not see what the addition of 'ultimate' makes to the word 'reality'.   What is non-ultimate reality?

And there are things an entity must do to be 'God'.  It must, for example, hear, understand and sometimes grant prayers.  It must care if I am good or bad and punish and reward me appropriately.  Is what hears prayers and punishes sin 'reality' or merely something that happens to be real (in your vision)?









#12
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@keithprosser
I never claimed to be wise. I do know that The Truth is my God, and if you make God to be anything other than that, you are looking at a false God.

You say that God must have all these qualities, and maybe God does. Tell me how these qualities are intrinsic to what Ultimate Reality means? Because The Ultimate Reality is God.


It is true that Donald Trump is the president of The United States. Before he was president, it was not true. After he leaves office, it will not be true.

A truth is only true in relativity. It is true depending on context. The truth is not eternal.

The Truth by contrast is eternally true. Always was true, always is true, and always will be true. It is not contingent.

There you have the difference between reality and ultimate reality.

But to go a step further, something could not be true unless The Truth was in it. The Truth is what makes anything true. So if a truth dies. The Truth doesn't die.

So if you believe in truth or reality at all, you already believe that God exists whether you are willing to acknowledge God as being such or not.



#13
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@Mopac
You say that God must have all these qualities, and maybe God does. Tell me how these qualities are intrinsic to what Ultimate Reality means? Because The Ultimate Reality is God.
For clarity, what I said was

And there are things an entity must do to be 'God'.  It must, for example, hear, understand and sometimes grant prayers.  It must care if I am good or bad and punish and reward me appropriately.

I am not saying that The Ultimate Reality must grant prayers - I am saying granting prayers is a function of a god, as most people understand the word 'god'.  It is certainly a function of the Judeao-Christian God.  If 'The Ultimate Reality' can grant prayers then how is it different from God to require a new title and if it cannot grant prayers, why say it is God at all?


#14
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@keithprosser
Certainly God answers prayers.

But since you find this to be difficult to believe, I'd wager that you don't really have an understanding of how that works that makes sense to you.

If you want The Truth above all things, pray for The Holy Spirit, and God will give you that Spirit of Truth.

That is the best prayer you can make. 

The Ultimate Reality is God, and so that is what is intrinsic. That God is The Truth.
There are those who believe God that do not pray or believe in prayer. It is by our faith that we are justified.


#15
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@Mopac
I thought god wasn't a "who"... how does him answering prayers make sense?
#16
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@Outplayz
If you with sincerity make habit to pray that God give you strength to do the right thing, you don't think this has an effect on the fortitude of the one praying with sincerity?

If you continually pray with sincerity that God would help you get through life's troubles, you don't think that this wouldn't somehow make you more conscientious of solutions?

If you pray earnestly that God give you The Holy Spirit, you don't think that The Spirit of Truth will be given to you?


There is nothing hard to believe about these examples of prayer.

Yet In my own personal life, I have seen very unexpected and miraculous things happen out of prayer. Things that seem to defy reason, but are too phenomenal to simply dismiss as coincidence. So my own understanding of prayer is very reasoned and rational, but rhese extraordinary instances humble me with the knowledge that some things really can't be totally understood. God knows.



#17
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@Mopac
I still yet to today have heard or found anyone that has had 1) as many and 2) the level of profoundness of spiritual experiences that i've had. Actually, the whole reason i started debating my spiritual belief is to find other people that have had experiences like i have had... yet, i have been found to be alone. So, i am curious what experiences you have witnessed or had. First and foremost i am curious bc it's what i am most interested in finding out. 

Therefore, i am not a stranger to strange things happening in this world. I am all to familiar with it. With that said, from my experience and observation... it has nothing to do with god but everything to do with self confidence and self love. From what you have said, that is what it sounds like you mean too. Prayer somehow giving a person more confidence to conquer life. However some one gets that i am just happy that they do... but, in a debate here, bc that is what we are here to do... i would say you don't need god for self-fulfilling prophecy. 

The one person that should have your back above all else is yourself. In my spiritual belief, i basically believe you are your own god. Technically, the person you are praying to is your higher self to get involved and help you find a way. In short that is how i see it. So i don't understand why you would but so much of this weight onto the idea of a god, when it just takes self-actualization and self love to achieve this. 

The one thing i find to be an enemy to my belief, and overall humanities... is that most religions take this self love away from you. They call it satanic, they call it supercilious, they call it arrogance. When simply, in life, we need to love ourselves above all else, and trust ourselves above all else. There is no one i have met that does this and is failing in life. That is my evidence that this is the divinity people need to find. Giving up your power to someone else is satanic in my book.

Therefore, that is why i make a distinction bw "god" being a "who" or an "it" ... if it is on the "it" side, then the one that is god is you. We are all god and we should love ourselves and worship ourselves, of course with the idea of moderation and humility, above all else. 

#18
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@Outplayz
Yeah, you are literally describing Satanism, so you shouldn't really be shocked that you've been accused of being satanic. 


Yet, there is a greater god than yourself, and that God is The Ultimate Reality.

You were born you will die. The One True God is eternal, always existing, never not existing.


But if God loves you, why shouldn't you love yourself? How do you love your neighbor as yourself if you don't love yourself?
But real humility, doesn't come from worshipping the self as God. Real humility comes from worshipping The Truth as God, and The Truth will show you how you are not without sin. Real humility comes from recognizing that despite the things that might make you extraordinary, your righteousness is nothing against the measuring stick of The Truth.

And it is through that sincere humility from realizing that we are all in the mud that makes genuine love for your fellows. After all, as lousy as I truly am, this is the way God made me, and I have been forgiven for my faults. Being forgiven, how can I judge another for their ignorance, even when they are insulting me, slandering me, even persecuting me?

It is the love of The Truth that allows me to love others, and my love for others is the readon I want everyone to know the good news.. that The Truth is God, God is salvation, and that a peace that surpasses all understanding can be realized even in this life through loving God above all other things.

And even if no one were to believe a thing that I say, and all my efforts to spread the good news fall on deaf ears, I am serene and at peace. I do what I do out of love, not this silly notion that I can save anyone. The one who saves is God alone. Love perfected casts out all fear. I do not fear for anyone's salvation. I accept God's will is done regardless of what happens. My peace is with God.

And I pray one day you realize that there is a higher power than yourself, and that higher power is God, The Truth, who is the only One who can save you. It is not by any work of your own. I hope you come to realize that what you may be considering to be success at life is truly vanity, and that in the end, no man can usurp the throne of God.





#19
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@Mopac
Yeah, you are literally describing Satanism, so you shouldn't really be shocked that you've been accused of being satanic. 


Yet, there is a greater god than yourself, and that God is The Ultimate Reality.

You were born you will die. The One True God is eternal, always existing, never not existing.
Well, i'm not sure what satanism believes in but i am pretty sure it doesn't believe in god in any form. I am saying everything... the absolute infinite is god. Basically, what you are saying i think. I define the absolute infinite as everything including this universe and beyond it. I believe reality is essentially an infinite and/or our foundation/platform is that of infinite everything. So far... i don't think this is an unfair assumption. Yet, i also add the element of infinite intelligence to this absolute infinite. I believe either intelligence evolved from this infinite platform or has always been a part of it. Either way has the same implications and i can't be too sure which is right... but, they do both lead to the same outcomes anyways. 

You can call this absolute infinite, god, absolute reality, absolute truth, whatever works. It is probably best to just clarify that it is infinite reality with intelligence also behind the wheel. I differentiate them by calling the infinite intelligence of it by calling that the source and infinite reality as just that. If we are all a part of this source or manifestations of its evolution than by definition we are all gods. There is no one higher than who you are. The source itself isn't really anything bc it is everything. All of us, all of reality, etc. I guess you can say the source is a higher power, but i don't believe the source dictates anything that is you. You will eternally be behind the wheel of your experiences. 

Therefore, i do not find it to be satanic to trust your higher self and love your higher self. Your higher self is a "higher power" ... you limited here and just human. Your higher self will know why you are human and every experience from beginning to end. Therefore, it is a higher power to you. So instead of putting your trust into another, which also has a higher self, it's better to trust yourself. Plus, since others do have higher selves that are powerful.. it is dangerous giving up your power to other entities that you can't be sure love you back. Love what you are sure of... yourself, family and sometimes friends. If you want to give that extra love to the source, whatever, you can i guess... but, that love is going towards the platform... not to anything that can help you. The one's that will help you are likely family or yourself. All this applies to life, and i don't see it magically changing in an afterlife.    

#20
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@Outplayz
I'm not quite sure qhat you mean by your higher self. Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean by this?
How can you say that you are eternally "behind the wheel" when there is an entire universe of causality pressing down on you?


#21
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@Mopac
I'm not quite sure qhat you mean by your higher self. Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean by this?
How can you say that you are eternally "behind the wheel" when there is an entire universe of causality pressing down on you?
I'll try to shorten my answer to this so ask me questions if i am being too vague. It all starts with the source. The source is everything and eternal intelligence. This would make it a conscious source but truly unfathomable as to what its existence would be. I personally think it really wouldn't be existing in the sense that it knows everything. If you know every story, from beginning to end of every possible world... well, i would say you're basically non-existent. There is no experiencing, there is nothing really... you are and know everything. 

Therefore, in order for it to exist, it must manifest as something that isn't everything... something limited. First and foremost, this is why i believe mortality is a very logical creation for an eternal mind. Furthermore, in order to experience .. you need characters and roles. Events and realities. And above all else, you need free will to choose these experiences. Bc if the source dictates and controls all experiences than it still is the same thing it's trying to escape by being mortal. For that reason, i believe the source individualized. That it gave each source within it free will. I believe our free will was given to us in our immortal state. Our immortal state would be the state where we individualized from the source... being our own sources ie higher selves.

From our immortal state we choose to go into experiences. Therefore, my higher self would be my immortal source and the person i am here would be its limit. Think about it like a video game. The gamer is my higher self, and the character is currently who i am as a mortal. A gamer plays games in a world... this metaphysical world being the source. So, the world the gamer is playing is the source, the gamer is the higher self, and the character it plays is who i am here. 

There are some other reasons too such as being social. If the source is one...then it is doomed to an eternity of being just one. I believe after the first time the source was social / individualized... it will never go back to being one. For the same reasons a human would go mad if they are the only person alive. But the top one i think is the main reasons.  
#22
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@Outplayz
I don't believe that omniscience implies nonexistence, and I don't really see how that follows.

I also don't see how omnipresence implies nonexistence.

I also don't see how what you call your higher self isn't a created being.

It seems to me that you are actually denying God and putting yourself, or what you call your higher self, what I would call your soul, in the place of God.




#23
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@Mopac
I don't believe that omniscience implies nonexistence, and I don't really see how that follows.
I also don't see how omnipresence implies nonexistence.

That i know isn't the best way to put it bc it is more philosophical than literal. It isn't existence as we know it. With a past, present and future. Its existence is knowing, being, existing, everything at once. When you know every story, when you know the beginning to end of every event, you aren't existing in the sense of actually existing throughout the experience. It is still existing as what it is... all the omni's. That is just a different form of existing, and i for one, wouldn't find it to be truly existing. Same if i said i am not truly existing if i don't go to the outdoors and enjoy nature. It is existing, however, as everything. Which makes it a different existence than we know. 

I also don't see how what you call your higher self isn't a created being.
I never said it wasn't. I specifically said our free will is created first and foremost in our higher selves. And, i also said we have evolved out of the source and are manifestations of everything it already knows. All of this implies we manifested and/or were created from this first source. 

It seems to me that you are actually denying God and putting yourself, or what you call your higher self, what I would call your soul, in the place of God.
No i am not denying "god" ... although i deny any definition of god that makes it a "who" and every other definition that isn't consistent with infinite intelligence. If it is consistent with infinite intelligence i am curious and interested bc that is the only logical way i could see it working. Of course, i may be wrong and it is a universe of robots that created us, but infinite intelligence does logically make the most sense out of every alternative i have found. 

However we define the first source, it also logically follows that we are all individuals that it already knows. Since it knows my story beginning to end. There are a few ways we could get here. I like to think the first source manifested from infinite reality and has been evolving as an incorporeal intelligence for eons. Therefore, we are all characters that it has literally thought up along the way. Or, this infinite intelligence could be everything from the beginning, but that still means we are individuals within its creation that it already knew. Bottom line is we need to individualize to have an individual experience as we are having now. 

Plus, i come from it in a empathetic way too. I hope if the first source is an individual in any way, that it is having its own experiences and not cursed to an eternity of having to watch humans. It's like telling a video game creator just watch me play but you're not allowed. In every conceivable way i can think of this playing out... i can't make sense to why there would be "gods" that care what we do and watch humanity with an interest in certain points of views and others not... unless we start going into polytheism which would make a little more sense in that regard. 

All that i can logically put together peppered with a dozen or more profound spiritual experiences i have had, make me highly suspect the platform is something like this model of spirituality. How exactly i don't know, but i am sure the best thing you can do is to strengthen yourself bc it will be you facing eternity... not anyone else. Just like in this life it is you facing reality. I don't see that magically changing when you die in any logical way. If it helps "you" through life having a higher power that is someone else looking out for you... by all means. But there isn't only one way that is right... there are infinite ways and i'd rather choose to believe i have just as much power as any immortal could have. It makes me a better person having this belief plus i enjoy the implications of what an afterlife could be much more than any other belief brings me.    
#24
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@Outplayz
Yet we all die, so doesn't your personal development count for nothing?

If thats it, then what?

If your faith is in The Truth, and you abide in The Truth., you at least know without a doubt that The Truth survives death.








#25
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@Mopac
Yet we all die, so doesn't your personal development count for nothing?
Well, this is a hard question to answer bc there are some things that i have no way of knowing, and that is how exactly it plays out in the afterlife. If i go back to the source, then i will also know everything the source does including this experience. Every decision, every moment, etc. If we have individualized from the source, i wonder if we still have certain abilities such as personal omniscience. As my higher self i may have that ability. However, i suspect that i have it to a degree. I personally would never want to be omniscient, therefore, maybe in my individual state, my higher self, i have blocked it out to a degree. Therefore, maybe i only will know the experience i just had and some previous experiences i have done in that state. Not to the level of knowing everything. I would personally make that choice and since in my higher self state i can, that is possibly how it will play out for me at least. Therefore, my development here does count if i want to have a good afterlife and a good "other" mortal experience. I cannot become something good if i don't know how to be good... even more so, i would want to be a hero of sorts, therefore, not only do i have to be good now... i also have to be a hero to the people around me. That's how my belief positively effects my experience. I believe i will reincarnate into another mortal experience and that i personally get to choose. But... i cannot have a good next experience or choose if i don't work on myself here. 

If thats it, then what?
If what's it? I don't get what you mean here. 

f your faith is in The Truth, and you abide in The Truth., you at least know without a doubt that The Truth survives death.
You define things differently than i do. If what "the truth" is consists of my higher self, then yes... i believe i just change form from mortal to incorporeal intelligence. How it plays out i have a few guesses but there is no way to know which one exactly. All i can do is trust that i've got it no matter what happens... to which self confidence is key.  
#26
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@Outplayz
When I say The Truth I mean Ultimate Reality, not what you think The Truth or Ultimate Reality is.

So it seems to me that because you are unsure, you are believing things that you want to believe. Am I mistaken about this?

The Truth is eternal. Therefore, goodness is abiding in The Truth, and everything else follows from that, including charity towards my fellows.

I don't worry about an afterlife, because my faith is in The Truth, not myself or the transient future of this world. Yet, there is nothing more heroic than for the sake of Truth laying your life down for others. 

Truth and Love are The Way, and this is what is good.





#27
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@Mopac
So it seems to me that because you are unsure, you are believing things that you want to believe. Am I mistaken about this?

You are no different. No one is "sure" ... you are believing in what you want to believe too. You just choose to put your faith in something else when i put my faith in myself. Of course i am unsure, since everyone is and are simply lying if they say otherwise, with that said, i am very confident in my belief. This confidence is from observation, thinking, and spiritual experiences that correlate with what i believe. Actually, my spiritual experiences and hearing other's spiritual experiences are the nails that piece it all together. 

I can't be sure how things will play out, but i can be sure that it will be me conquering whatever is coming my way. Without confidence in myself, just like this life, i can likely fail. Just like this life, putting your confidence in someone else is and will always be detrimental to your own path. You put yourself in something good... and like i said before, there is no problem if that is how you find peace within yourself and your path. However i am also confident that's not the only way to "the truth." And i can always argue that confidence in yourself is the best way to succeed. Bc there is proof of that all around me. Anthropomorphically, i don't see how that wouldn't also be consistent in a metaphysical sense as well. 

Why is the afterlife important? Bc that is what most are living to hopefully get to. However, i have noticed many people aren't able to define "heaven" or the implications of an afterlife. I find that to be dangerous in that you may have an afterlife you don't want if you can't define what you want. I have defined it, and i have a clear path to get to it. I know what to do, how to act, and what to be here to be able to get to it. That is as far as one can go without knowing. But to be prepared is always a good thing.   
#28
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@Outplayz
See, you are actually wrong. I don't believe what I want to believe. I don't believe in things arbitrarily.

My belief in The Truth is something that goes beyond belief in what that looks like to me, in fact, the main difference here is that my beliefs are fundamentally based around the idea that I am wrong. I am wrong, so my faith is not in myself. Surely, to a certain extent it is, because I trust in my own reasoning and observations more so than the reasonings and observations of others, but that is not where my faith is.

Your faith is in your understanding. Your faith is in knowingism, or is gnostic in nature. My faith is not a gnostic faith, because my faith is not in my own understanding, but The Truth. Not my understanding of The Truth. Not someone elses understanding of The Truth, but The Truth.

So what that means is that my faith has to do with the relationship I have with The Truth. What do I do? I purge myself of the things that get in the way of being completely honest and sincere. One of those things is faith in your own understanding. This comes from pride, and even if you are smarter than everyone else around you, your understanding is still wrong.

You care about an afterlife, but you don't realize that all of your preparation for it is going to let you down, because all of that goes to hell, and I can tell you this with certainty.

Meanwhile, I don't care in the slightest about an afterlife, but I still know that no matter what happens, The Truth is eternal, and even if a truth dies, The The Truth will always be. I am secure because my faith is fundamentally about accepting reality. The natural result of that is that I am at peace with whatever happens. It is a peace that surpasses all circumstance, a peace that surpasses all understanding.


And the only reason I am telling you any of this is because I don't want you to suffer. I want you to come to knowledge of The Truth.



"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Love The Truth. Get yourself out of the way. There will come a time when your own efforts will fail you, but God never fails. Rest in God, The Truth. 



#29
Outplayz
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@Mopac
You care about an afterlife, but you don't realize that all of your preparation for it is going to let you down, because all of that goes to hell, and I can tell you this with certainty.

There's a hell now? You are just like every other theist. Just bc you think you know something as the truth... you are no different than any other theist. You just define things to your own liking. Since you believe in a hell now... i can tell all your knowledge isn't yours either... you likely follow the Bible. I am quite sure i know what will happen to you in the afterlife and i am not scared for you... you will likely get what every other religious theist will get. To me, that isn't exciting and even more so, hell. I know i won't get what theists want and i am 100% okay with that.  

My belief isn't off knowing... my belief is actually of not knowing what can be. I acknowledge many outcomes, and i prepare for all of them i can think of. I don't know what happens, or if you are right... all i know is that it will be me who will deal with it. Not you, not anyone else but me. That is the only logical conclusion. If i am not me, i am something else at which point i don't have to deal with it so i don't care. If it is me, i am prepared. 

Basically, you are playing word games in trying to make yourself sound humble.  You don't have a humble belief, i can tell you that. If you can sit there are write another soul will go to hell... well that gives me confidence you have no clue what you are talking about. It's ironic bc you may think my belief isn't humble. However, i have made my belief not with myself on my mind... it just works out that the implications are awesome for me too. I made my belief for everyone else. My life's goal was to 1) make sense of spirituality and 2) finding a platform that gives everyone the heaven they seek. I have done both and in that i am content. 

I have years of free thinking from every religion and i have furthermore been able to put them aside to figure out a platform where everyone goes to their heaven... however they define it good or bad. My belief is for the world... your belief is to make you feel good. Just like every other religious theist.   
#30
Mopac
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@Outplayz
What happens when you die? Your body goes away. Like another log chucked on the fire.

Your ideas, your artwork, everything you've ever put your heart and soul in... they will one day be forgotten, chucked away like a log in the fire.

See, you are offended, but it is true. Your life is a vapor, and if you put your faith in these fabrications of your mind and other transient things...

If you were to take yourself now, and see the fate of what you put your faith in, you would see the hell. What do you think pharaoh thinks about the state of his corpse? The fact that is hung up in a museum for everyone to point at and wonder. How nothing else is remembered but fragments of culture and a fragile mostly rotten corpse?

So will be your fate if you place your faith in that which is not eternally true. 


And this isn't something you need to read any holy book to see, it is the evident truth.

So you can discount what I'm saying because you think you know better, or you can get humble before you get humbled.



You aren't God, and no amount of your vain imagining will ever overthrow The Truth. The Truth reigns supreme.