My thread was locked:
Given there is no rule to lock me from creating a forum topic linking another forum topic then this is how I am skirting away from the dumbass lock system.
What the fuck
Posts
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30
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@TheRealNihilist
Please see this thread: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2553/what-is-a-call-out-thread
The definition of a call-out thread means a few things in practice. First, it means that not all threads calling people out are call-out threads as the COC defines the term. If I create a thread saying, "Calling Out Castin," and then in the thread I say only complimentary things about her, I have not created a "call-out thread" as the COC defines it, and so my thread has not broken any site rules. The COC certainly does not prohibit saying nice things about other people. Second, the call-out thread, in its purpose, OP content, or title content, must constitute a personal attack. Threads criticizing or parodying other users are not necessarily call-out threads. Not all criticism or mockery rises to a level which is actionable under the COC.
Call-out threads are locked by the COC standards.
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@TheRealNihilist
In terms of the original problem issue; the main problem was that Virtuoso and myself were both asleep during all these votes, so were unable to do anything about them.
While I agree with the fundamental problem, and would like to have a scenario where votes after the voting period can still be removed: this is an issue with implementation and site infrastructure, rather than rules. As a software engineer, often some aspects like this that appear trivial to the outside world are actually much more technically challenging due to the site architecture.
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@DebateArt.com
@David
@Ramshutu
This can be easily fixed. Simply give more power to the moderators to allow them to take down votes after the voting period is finished or extend the voting period.
Why aren't you doing anything?
Don't give well I don't have time when you had the time to add the question system that barely anyone uses. There is a demand like reporting votes but gets removed when the voting period is over. Not to mention me practically begging Ram to check a vote even though much earlier he removed votes in the same debate.
See debating debate I did where there is 5 day difference between the moderators moderating. That isn't by what Ram said well we were asleep unless you both were asleep for 5 days even though you had activity during that time.
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@TheRealNihilist
What we really need is for the site to automatically block voters who have not completed the required steps and require mods to manually approve new voters.
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@TheRealNihilist
The issue is that it is not actually easy to fix. The site architecture doesn’t lend itself well to being able to remove votes after the debate has finished. It’s not as simple as “giving more power” to moderators, as if waving a magic wand.This can be easily fixed. Simply give more power to the moderators to allow them to take down votes after the voting period is finished or extend the voting period.
Secondly; I personally prioritize votes and vote moderation based on time remaining on the debate, and basic aspects of the vote; if the vote is obviously bad and takes less time to remove - it will normally be moderated more quickly: if there is plenty of time remaining in the debate, it’s more likely I will review it, and if I’m not certain, I will come back in a few days, and re-review unless the debate has a small amount of time remaining.
In this case, I removed the only reported vote on your debate prior to going to bed - and the remainder were all up after this time. In the example of your other debate, the vote was removed in good time, well before the end of the debate, which I do not feel is unreasonable. While I know it’s frustrating to wait a few days for votes to be removed: you will be having to wait a several days for a response in some cases for me to get around to fully reviewing and removing the vote: especially long votes where I often read then defer for a few days to not make rash decisions.
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@David
RM's vote would not have been removed because both of you were asleep. Only bill's would be and Ragnar would vote fairly. If he votes in my favor it could still end in a draw even though RM's vote isn't sufficient.
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@Ramshutu
Please you saying it is difficult is worth the same as me saying it is easy because both of us are not well informed on the topic. That part was to DA. I am typing this on the phone which is why I didn't target all of you individually.
I 100% know I reported all of the votes even Trent's well before you even took down Water's and Club's.
Wait so is the voting period of the debate going to be redone?
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@WaterPhoenix
No because I don't have support of the higher ups even though there is a need for it.
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@TheRealNihilist
I’m a software engineer with nearly 20 years of experience, of which a not insignificant amount of time has been in server systems development; I have also spent time with Mike discussing this very point and the various technical difficulties of them. What may seem easy to someone from the outside may very much not be so when considering the structure of the software.
As a result of these two points, I would consider myself fairly knowledgeable and informed on this specific topic. It’s not a trivial change, and while I think it’s a priority; it’s probably a very large amount of development time to pull off.
THANK YOU, STOP ABUSING LOCKING THREADS
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@Ramshutu
Really, you're a software engineer, that's like my dream job
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@Dr.Franklin
Yep!
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@Ramshutu
awesome
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@Ramshutu
Sorry I didn't know.
Is there like a half fix or some kind of incremental thing that can be done?
Basically saying if the option can't be created to simply give users privileges to take down votes after the voting period how not simply specifically change how a specific debate is. Implement the changes necessary and revert it back?
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@TheRealNihilist
As I understand it, the issue isn’t necessarily the removal of votes; but that it’s very hard to unwind the completion of the debate when removing a vote. You’re not just removing a vote - you have to unwind everything that occurs when the win happens. Tying those mechanics to the rather simple removal of a vote entry is more complex and problematic than you may think. While there may be other possible updates that could work around this, I suspect they all come with their particular issues too.
How about you don't unwind what is going on, Simply change it while it is complete?As I understand it, the issue isn’t necessarily the removal of votes; but that it’s very hard to unwind the completion of the debate when removing a vote. You’re not just removing a vote - you have to unwind everything that occurs when the win happens. Tying those mechanics to the rather simple removal of a vote entry is more complex and problematic than you may think. While there may be other possible updates that could work around this, I suspect they all come with their particular issues too.
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@TheRealNihilist
That’s what I meant by unwind it.
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@Ramshutu
So any change is unwinding?That’s what I meant by unwind it.
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@Ramshutu
As I understand it, the issue isn’t necessarily the removal of votes; but that it’s very hard to unwind the completion of the debate when removing a vote. You’re not just removing a vote - you have to unwind everything that occurs when the win happens. Tying those mechanics to the rather simple removal of a vote entry is more complex and problematic than you may think. While there may be other possible updates that could work around this, I suspect they all come with their particular issues too.
Maybe a simpler solution could be had in a delay between the time when votes can be entered and/or flagged and the process of concluding the debate, rather than redoing it after the votes are finally counted.
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@TheRealNihilist
If you remove a vote and it changes the winner - you have to undo all the changes made by that victory, and reapply a new victory condition: it has to unwind ELO - which is hard as the debate them needs to store the starting ELO values of both competitors at the end.
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@Snoopy
Theres probably many changes that are possible, and potentially simpler: time is likely the limiting factor; the work is being volunteered, and you’d be surprised how many hours a simple change takes to make.
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@Ramshutu
How about halting who wins and loses and wait until the moderation has checked is up to par?If you remove a vote and it changes the winner - you have to undo all the changes made by that victory, and reapply a new victory condition: it has to unwind ELO - which is hard as the debate them needs to store the starting ELO values of both competitors at the end.
This can be called the moderating period.
I remember on DDO where for years it was the wild west when it came to voting and damn near every debate had counter votes and votebombs and people just went with it.....
Im not saying that people on here are sensitive or whatever, but guys, as someone who had a literal shitton of debates on DDO, you guys do need to be a little more relaxed when it comes to debate votes. Not every single debate you make is going to recieve the attention and protection it should. I know how infuriating it can be for other people to fuck up the effort you put into your arguments, but its going to happen sooner or later and it just comes with the nature of debate sites
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@Imabench
Two votes weren't based on the arguments.
One vote wouldn't even go in line with what one of the moderators said.
That is the problem. Not people disagreeing with me.
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@TheRealNihilist
That is the problem. Not people disagreeing with me.
What part of my comment made any sort of insinuation that you didnt like the votes simply because they disagreed with you.
Let me summarize a bit better:
- Shitty votes happen,
- They used to be the norm back on DDO for literally years before changes started being made
- While voting standards have improved and are better enforced, the system isnt perfect and a few will always slip by
Let me know which step causes any confusion
My vote was fine.
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@Ramshutu
As I understand it, the issue isn’t necessarily the removal of votes; but that it’s very hard to unwind the completion of the debate when removing a vote. You’re not just removing a vote - you have to unwind everything that occurs when the win happens. Tying those mechanics to the rather simple removal of a vote entry is more complex and problematic than you may think. While there may be other possible updates that could work around this, I suspect they all come with their particular issues too.
What about just delaying things like elo/win count etc. Just add on a 24 hour (or however long it usually takes to moderate a vote) 'blank' period after the voting period during which elo is not updated and no new votes may be added but existing votes may be removed, only adjusting leaderboard data after the 'blank' period.
Still relatively programing heavy but much less so than trying to make it so that votes can be removed after the fact under the current system.
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@Imabench
It just so happens I was annoyed at the ones slipping by.While voting standards have improved and are better enforced, the system isnt perfect and a few will always slip by
You didn't provide anything informative instead stated the obvious. Mine was an extreme case, I know but to see a failure that bad would mean that there are areas where people can exploit the site in the way which I stated it occurred.