"the greater good"

Author: 3RU7AL

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#1
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Here are two examples of "the greater good" opposed to "individual freedom".

First, vaccination.  "the greater good" argues that although some people have violent reactions to vaccines, the cost is vanishingly small, so even if you or someone you love has been harmed by one or more vaccines, your suffering is of little concern to "society at large" because statistically, way more people suffer way less under mandatory vaccinations.

Pro-Vaccine vs Anti-Vaccine: Should Your Kids Get Vaccinated? [LINK]

Second, climate change.  "the greater good" argues that although some people have significant negative economic impacts as the result of environmental policies, the cost of doing nothing is catastrophic to all humans, so even if you or someone you love has been harmed by environmental policies, your suffering is of little concern to "society at large" because statistically, way more people will suffer under the status quo.

Climate Change Activists vs Skeptics: Can They See Eye To Eye? [LINK]

Do you believe we should steamroll individuals in pursuit of "the greater good"?

Do you think we should perhaps consider ways to mitigate the suffering of individuals, no matter how "insignificant" it might seem to the enlightened masses?

Do you think we should demonize detractors and paint them as "idiots" who "deserve what they get"?

#2
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
to maintain any semblance of freedom must include the ability to make bad choices.
the best 'greater good' would be the gilded cage.
Here is my issue and should be for everyone.  Do you trust the government?  They have been wrong about the food pyramid after lo these many years. Now it's come to light the whole cholesterol study was b.s. and so are statins.  Point is the government has been wrong in many servere ways but we only find out much much later.
Force for the 'greater good' is a slippery slope putting it mildly, I'd say it's more of a road to hell paved with good intentions.
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#3
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
They have been wrong about the food pyramid after lo these many years.
They published misleading information BECAUSE they were influenced by corporations. [LINK]
#4
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Government != the broad consensus of the world wide scientific community.




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@3RU7AL
I'll accept what you say as true, that shouldn't change or perhaps should increase the distrust of what the government is telling us, or trying to forces us into right?
If the government can be manipulated into serving others instead of the citizens, general public then really that's made my point.
#6
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@Ramshutu
tbh I don't g.a.f. about what other countries have to say generally speaking, I live in MY country and it's my life, they have NO say over either.
#7
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Facts and reality about the efficacy of vaccines and the impact and reality of climate change don’t suddenly become untrue the moment you cross the border.


If, for example, the entirety of the international community have determined that man made climate change is real, and we have to act to mitigate the worst effects: if this were actually true - then the government should be reasonably expected to act to mitigate that climate change right?

In that case the trust goes both ways: trust to not act when they shouldn’t - but also to act when they should.





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@Ramshutu
all governments have influencers and agendas so you'll forgive my skepticism as well as the times they've been flatly wrong or otherwise corrupt.  While we can and should consider everything thing and opinion we should not be beholden to any foreign entity.  To do so would be to give up sovereignty.


Anyone remember "Love Canal"?  How the Hudson river, want to take a swim?  Acid rain?  Flint Michigan?

Of all the problems we can and should fix I don't see much of an effort at all.  But this "climate change" sure gets attention.  There is plenty to fix in our back yard so you'll forgive me if I call B.S. on "climate change"
Do we have the cleanest air and water we could have?  I don't think so.  Wouldn't that be a very good place to start?
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#9
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
If the government can be manipulated into serving others instead of the citizens, general public then really that's made my point.
If the government can be manipulated into serving others instead of the citizens, then we should take action to mitigate this manipulation. [LINK]

If we destroy all faith in the government, then there is nothing standing between us and the money-hungry sociopathic corporations.
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@3RU7AL
well I hate to say it, but it's being destroyed and getting worse.  The democrats want more government control over our lives, anti constitution etc I could go on and on, but that's a different thread I suppose.
#11
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
..."Dpriate---I'd say it's more of a road to hell paved with good intentions.
Ergo in your mind a world of people, corporations and governments with bad intentions will be less chance of road to hell?

Somehow that does not ring true or even rational, logical or common sense. 

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Again: you’re confusing the broad consensus of tens of thousands of scientists, over hundreds of countries, and many dozens of organizations about what the reality is - with what the government says is true.

You’re point seems to be largely meaningless: I’m not saying your government has to be beholden to anyone: but just because you may or may not like the government - does not mean what reality is magically changes as per your whims.


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@3RU7AL
Second, climate change.  "the greater good" argues that although some people have significant negative economic impacts as the result of environmental policies, the cost of doing nothing is catastrophic to all humans, so even if you or someone you love has been harmed by environmental policies, your suffering is of little concern to "society at large" because statistically, way more people will suffer under the status quo.
Everything about this statement is false. The predictions of "catastrophe" if we do nothing to slow climate change are, historically, far, far less accurate than the predictions of what will happen to humanity if we spend the trillions proposed to do "something"

Historically speaking, end-of-the-world charlatans have plagued humanity since the first wolf was discovered to cry over. Obviously out of the thousands of historical examples of "the end of the world" we are still here alive, and thriving, sadly to the detriment of all other species. On the second matter, historically we have always seen that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the very idea that it is ONLY government that can "save the world" is backed by significant historical data of governments turning into tyrannies. If having tyrannical authoritative governments is a "greater-good" perhaps we should give up on this silly notion of free agency and personal responsibility.

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@3RU7AL
They published misleading information BECAUSE they were influenced by corporations

Green energy is a huge industry waiting to be subsidized by frightened, clueless people.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Whenever powerful people claim to love your kids more than you do and say they are doing it "for the kids" then you know for sure they are doing it for themselves.

"For the kids" has become the classic trope of the abuse of power under the guise of "the greater good"
classic appeal to emotion over logic
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#17
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Apparently, if you believe be the broad consensus of climate science, the majority of the worlds nations, the world outside your window, and argue that - you are following end of the world charlatans.

If on the other hand, you decide to follow the government officials, studies or other groups that have direct and specific financial involvement with those who stand to profit most from doing nothing - who constitute the minority of professional opinion: you are being a prudent and rational human being.


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@TheDredPriateRoberts
well I hate to say it, but it's being destroyed and getting worse.  The democrats want more government control over our lives, anti constitution etc I could go on and on, but that's a different thread I suppose.
I see it like this, the government is supposed to shield us from con-artists and psychopaths.

The government is like an air-filter on a safety mask.  Sure the filter gets dirty and inefficient, but the solution is NOT "just remove the filter".

The solution is to clean and or replace the filter with a better one. [LINK]
#19
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@Ramshutu
I chose not to take what others say on faith, you are free to do so, scientist have been wrong even to the death of others, so believe and trust in them if you will, I'm not so easily convinced.
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@Greyparrot
I guess I'm to believe that although the government hasn't cleaned up it's (our) own backyard, has killed citizens directly or indirectly due to ignorance, incompetence, apathy or power (Waco Tx anyone?)  Now all of a sudden I'm supposed to believe chicken little?  Oh lets do something about gun murders, except for places like Chicago because you know they already have tyrannical laws so not much else you can do law wise in those places.  Either the murder problem in those cities is something new or no one really cares, it's one or the other.  The boy who cried wolf, classic.
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@Ramshutu
Hi stalker.

You can have a consensus of charlatans and shills for green energy.

What do you think about the hundreds of millions that take the end of the-world-prophecies of the Koran as fact?
You don't think that is a consensus of doom proselytizers?

#22
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Correct, doom-sayers have been plaguing humankind since the discovery of the 1st wolf to cry over.

#23
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Remember when Obama lost 2.2 billion due to failed predictions of the end of the world and believing corporate green energy?


I don't.
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#25
3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I chose not to take what others say on faith, you are free to do so, scientist have been wrong even to the death of others, so believe and trust in them if you will, I'm not so easily convinced.
Isn't this really about "standards-of-evidence"?

Do you believe the "greater good" is ever a reasonable justification to violate individual freedom?

I mean, do you believe we should imprison criminals?

Or should we just let free-market-competition weed out all the "idiotic weaklings"?
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@3RU7AL
You just have to be careful that politicians are not using "greater good" as a means to secure a monopoly on tyrannical power.

#27
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@3RU7AL
oh I agree with you that is how things are suppose to be done.  For me, it's difficult to believe someone who preaches about income disparity who's a multimillionaire and owns multi million dollar homes.  Obama purchase ocean front property, guess he really doesn't believe the oceans will rise anytime soon.
Which candidates past or present is campaigning on cleaning up the air, water and land within the U.S.?
Which candidates past or present are jumping on the 'climate change' bandwagon?  don't bother the list is too long but you see my point.
#28
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@Greyparrot
If your willing to believe that the entire scientific community has been engaged in a massive orchestrated shill effort for the last 40 years; but the large energy companies that have been actively funding anti climate change politics, studies, and attempts to change public perceptions in order to oppose and stifle policies that harm their bottom line are acting out of the goodness of their heart, then I have some magic beans to sell you.


But nice trolling comparing religious nutjob theories with the broad and general consensus of thousands of individuals scientists who have studied the climate and potential outcomes of climate change.

Totally the same thing!
#29
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@Greyparrot
look back no further than the cold war.  the world should have ended so many times now if what they were claiming was correct.
#30
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There is no greater good. There's only good. And that starts with the individual because he (or she) is the fundamental part of any social interaction.

My responses to your questions will be quite simple:

1. No one should be coerced into taking vaccinations; by that very same token, a school shouldn't be obligated into admitting a child who hasn't taken vaccinations unless it's funded publicly.

2. Climate change is a misnomer. Everything changes. As it concerns this "global-warming" scare, further research into the topic would reveal that the effects on the ozone are not as exaggerated as state-sponsored environmental scientists would have you believe.