LSD should be decriminalised.

Author: Smithereens

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#1
Smithereens
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  • One of the highest therapeutic indices of any drug, meaning overdose is extremely difficult. LSD trips are experienced at around 100 micrograms, with overdoses occuring around 15,000 micrograms.
  • Not addictive
  • Is not harmful to society or the individual
  • It was illegalised due to its prominence in the counter cultural movement of the 70-80's, not for health or harm reasons. 
  • Its current status as a schedule 1 drug (USA)/ S9 (AUS) means valuable research has been hindered significantly.
  • Legalisation w/ regulated supply reduces incidence of any given illicit drug use in a population
  • Legalisation w/ regulated supply destroys markets that profit criminals/gangs. 
You can contest any of these points, just quote it and give your thoughts on it and I'll respond.


#2
Mopac
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I know  at least 3 people who are perma fried from doing too much acid. 1 of them pretty much speaks in grunts and giggles, only speaking very seldomly and in simple sentences. I know another who pretty much walks around, moves his mouth and hands as if he was speaking. I knew both of these people before they became messed up. You used to be able to hold conversations with them.

I've done enough of it myself to know it isn't totally harmless. 

I used to babysit parties of people on acid after tripping earlier in the day. I am very familiar with the stuff, among other drugs. I used to do a lot of drugs, and was pretty responsible about it too. I also did a lot of research chemicals. 

I think people are better off staying away from them, and I would even say that about drugs that are prescribed by doctors.


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#3
Smithereens
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@Mopac
what is the medical diagnoses for your friends? LSD can induce recurrent psychotic episodes in vulnerable individuals and potentially schizophrenia, but not that. 
#4
Imabench
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I would be open to LSD being legal for medical purposes, the way marijuana currently is in many states, but Im still pretty hesitant about decriminalizing it outright. A little bit of LSD could impair someone ability to drive safely on a far lower dosage compared to alcohol, and while its hard to overdose from it directly, there are still many ways for people to get hurt by its legalization through second-hand affairs.  
#5
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@Smithereens
Well, I'm just telling you what I have personally seen happen. They both did a lot at once. I would call it an overdose for sure.

If I, not being a doctor, were to diagnose them as anything it would be permafried.


#6
DBlaze
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People go crazy on that stuff.... for some people it is just one time, then they are never the same person.  For others, they do it now and again, then they do it more and it becomes a lifestyle.  Then they turn into a crazy person, seeing and hearing things.  Personal hygiene is one of the first things to go, once you have gone a bit too far.... There is no going back.  The smart people realized how much it changed them and quit before they went completely crazy, and saw hallucinations for the rest of their lives.  
The dumb people kept doing because they thought it made them better, opened their mind..... earth to that person... it didn't.
#7
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@Smithereens
how long do the effects last?  How popular is it?
I don't think there's enough profit in it to do a study.  There is some data on THC.  Maranol(sp) has been around for a while and available by prescription so there must be some efficacy for that.  And I know studies have been done for it, I've actually read the package insert.
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#8
Smithereens
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@Imabench
I would be open to LSD being legal for medical purposes, the way marijuana currently is in many states, but Im still pretty hesitant about decriminalizing it outright. A little bit of LSD could impair someone ability to drive safely on a far lower dosage compared to alcohol, and while its hard to overdose from it directly, there are still many ways for people to get hurt by its legalization through second-hand affairs
"LSD should remain Illegal due to dangers it can create for driving"

LSD currently isn't an issue in driving. Not to say that people don't try to drive as they trip out causing accidents, but incidence is too low for it to be noteworthy statistically. Second-hand damage from LSD is virtually non existent. 

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#9
Smithereens
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@Mopac
Well, I'm just telling you what I have personally seen happen. They both did a lot at once. I would call it an overdose for sure.

If I, not being a doctor, were to diagnose them as anything it would be permafried

The reason why I'm skeptical of you linking their mental issues to LSD is because the effects you're looking at can't be produced by any amount of LSD at all. LSD is a 5-HT(2A) agonist, you cannot get a response from the receptors that don't communicate using Serotonin. Your friend would die from acute toxicity before suffering the brain damage he clearly has. 

If your link were accurate, it would be the first of its kind. 
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#10
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@DBlaze
LSD does not create a downwards spiral of dependency. Once the hallucinogenic effects wear off, the person is back to where they started. 
#11
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@Smithereens
So you say
#12
drafterman
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People being "permafried" by LSD are little more than urban legends. Like the one where a person allegedly drunk some obscene amount of LSD and now thinks he's a glass of orange juice, perpetually afraid he is going to fall over and spill.

Another issue with LSD being illegal is that people will resort to trying new chemicals which aren't strictly illegal, but are most certainly more experimental and, therefore, more dangerous, such as salvia (unpredictable, higher propensity for "bad" trips) and, until recently  NBOM (high potency, risk of OD).


#13
RationalMadman
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I support legal cocaine but not lsd
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#14
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@RationalMadman
whysat? 
#15
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@Smithereens
Because LSD completely destroys the brain and biochemistry.

Only thing worse is Meth.

Heroin you can recover from with enough time, LSD permanently rewires your brain to make you dumber. Actually weed does the same thing but they will never admit it and it's so much less so it's irrelevant.

Shrooms are better than LSD because they do exactly what LSD is taken for but they do it far safer and far less permanent. Also, Shroom dealers are almost always eccentric professor types or hippies who have genuine intentions whereas LSD is dealt out by thugs who will happily lace it with cheaper stuff than real LSD.
#16
XLAV
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@Smithereens
Have you personally tried LSD?
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#17
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@RationalMadman
Because LSD completely destroys the brain and biochemistry.
It doesn't. It's very similar to shrooms as it affects the same receptors.

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#18
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@XLAV
No, and my desire to decriminalise it isn't based on any desire to use it either. 
#19
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@Smithereens
I think a main issue I will have proving it to you is you will say that the results are due to bad quality, laced LSD with non-LSD substances scamming users.

Nonetheless I will outplay your defence by the following studies. Also you are correct that Shrooms are the happy+calm hallucinatory drug where LSD is the scared+excited one. They are both hallucinatory and achieve the goal by blocking the receptor to the opposite mood. Shrooms make you incapable of anger and sadness, LSD makes you incapable of calm and a 'meh' mindset. LSD is a severely negative drug that will make you have constant nightmares the longer you regularly use it which will lead to you having a totally distorted view of reality to the extent that you will eventually perceive something like rape as a necessary thing to do and something like eating starch as a threat to your body as you will conclude the media and humanity is out to get you and is lying about it just like that.


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#20
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@RationalMadman
The potential adverse consequences of LSD abuse comes down to schizoaffective psychosis in vulnerable individuals following persistent long term use:
  • Abraham, H. D., & Aldridge, A. M. (1993). Adverse consequences of lysergic acid diethylamide. Addiction, 88(10), 1327-1334

The sum of all available evidence shows that LSD is one of the safest and least impactful drugs: 
  • Nutt, D. J., King, L. A., & Phillips, L. D. (2010). Drug harms in the UK: a multicriteria decision analysis. The Lancet, 376(9752), 1558-1565.
  • van Amsterdam, J., Nutt, D., Phillips, L., & van den Brink, W. (2015). European rating of drug harms. Journal of Psychopharmacology, 29(6), 655-660.
LSD is a valuable research field with clinical relevance and benefit:
  • Preller, K. H., Herdener, M., Pokorny, T., Planzer, A., Kraehenmann, R., Stämpfli, P., ... & Vollenweider, F. X. (2017). The fabric of meaning and subjective effects in LSD-induced states depend on serotonin 2A receptor activation. Current Biology, 27(3), 451-457.
  • Schmid et al. (2015). Acute Effects of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide in Healthy Subjects. Biological Psychiatry, 78, 544-553. DOI: 10.1016/j.biopsych.2014.11.015
  • Eisner, B. G., & Cohen, S. (1958). Psychotherapy with lysergic acid diethylamide. J.Nerv.Ment.Dis. 127,528-53


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#21
Smithereens
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News articles vs the scientific consensus hmm. 
#22
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@Smithereens
cool story liar :) enjoy your kids getting their brain and life destroyed same for your friends if you don't strongly tell them brutally and ban them if you physically can from this life destroying substance.
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#23
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>presents scientific evidence that LSD is safe.
>RM's response:
cool story liar 
The quality and insight of this rebuttal has blown my arguments out of the water. I humbly concede. 
#24
keithprosser
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I think 'safe' has to be taken in context.  LSD is not a poison and it does not cause systemic or permament damage, so its 'safe' in that sense, but it is far from 'safe' in in the way it distorts perception of distances and shapes etc.  I used to trip, but I dread to think what might have happed if I'd tried driving!   It is also extremely dangerous if taken unawares, such as when someone 'spikes' a drink.  

I believe in 'caution tripping' - ie doing it with friends in a safe environment.   Then it can be fun, but at the wrong time or the wrong place it can be very bad news indeed.

#25
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@Smithereens
I've probably done more acid than the lot of you combined, and I still don't think the stuff is harmless. Ever been lost at every intersection in a place you walk through every day? Ever lay in a ditch for several hours watching paint swirl while your hands keep aging into bones and reverse aging into looking young again? Acid is weird stuff.

I am not the least surprised that the OP has never done acid. 

Most of my experiences were positive, but I never did drugs just to get messed up. I found that trying to maintain my composure was how I enjoyed my high the most.

Acid is easily one of the harder drugs to maintain your composure on, but it is really fun to try. Certain things were nearly impossible for me though... like doing anything with money... counting just never made sense to me on acid. Eating wasn't really that fun for me either, everything is alive. You see things you never notice otherwise on acid. It also tends to illicit a constant state of epiphany... like "This is it!".

There is a reason why it was first experimented as a mind control drug. People are very open to things when they are on acid. It is a favorite drug among wizards and sorcerers.

I really would advise people to stay away from drugs, and I would go so far as yo say that people shouldn't trust the field of psychiatry either.




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#26
Smithereens
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@Mopac
psychology is about taking those experiences you had, comparing them to thousands of other cases and finding out what is statistically the most common experience.

psychiatry is a field of medicine.
#27
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@Smithereens
Yes, and psychiatry is what I wouldn't trust.

Don't get me wrong, the pschology field likely attracts a lot of kooks, but there are probably some good ones out there.

I don't know. I do not see either. I was in a mental hospital once under a false accusation of trying to hurt myself and others. These accusations were from a God hater who wanted to silence me. I was taken against my will by paramedics and I got to spend time in the happy farm. I would have been out in 5 days if I would have taken their pills, but I refused, so they kept me there for a whole month.

The things I saw during that time made me lose faith entirely in that institution. They are not really helping people. Besides that, I was imprisoned under false pretenses without any due process.

That was a long time ago though.


That was the first time I was persecuted for my faith. While I was in there, I ministered to people. A friend from the outside gifted me a bible. I was reading outloud the sermon on the mount to a group that wanted to hear it. The staff panicked, shot me with thorazine and I went to sleep. They mocked me for my faith. "Oh, thall shalt not do this and that!" and laughed at me.

The doctors were terrified of all the patients and literally did nothing to help anyone. They would haphazardly prescribe pills after talking with someone for half a minute. 

I do not trust psychiatrists, not one bit. I think their entire "science" is built off of faulty premises. I don't respect their field at all.

So I guess the scientologists are right about this one lol


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#28
Smithereens
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@Mopac
It sounds like you've had a messed up history. 
#29
Mopac
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@Smithereens
I've seen things for sure.

I am the kind of person who had to learn things the hard way.

For science.

#30
RationalMadman
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Smithereens is the type of scientist who preaches against confirmation bias and then goes and says 'why not?' when conducting his own research.