Book Of Job

Author: Dr.Franklin

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The Book of Job at its beginning, Job seems to be a book about human suffering. By its conclusion, the true subject of the book emerges: God’s sovereignty. As one of the longest books in the Bible, Job can be captured under four headings:

“Prologue” (chapters 1 and 2): the setting for Job’s suffering;
“Dialogues” (chapters 3 and 27): accusations and answers between Job and his friends;
“Monologues” (chapters 28:1 to 42:6): discourses by Job, Elihu and God;
“Epilogue” (chapter 42:7 - 17): Job’s understanding of God and Job’s restoration.
“What does all of this mean”: Job speaks of foundational themes every human being contends with, especially in times of suffering.

“God’s Character”: The book of Job defends the character of a loving and righteous God in spite of earth’s obvious evils and injustices. Although Job was unaware of the interaction between Satan and God, Job comes to the conclusion that God is just and good. That is the lesson of the book for anyone who questions God without access to all the facts (38:1-42:6).

“Trust”: Job was forced to walk by faith rather than by sight (2 Cor. 5:7). He could not see what the reader sees in chapters 1 and 2. Job’s perspective is best summarized in 13:15 “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.” Job continued to plead his innocence before God but was prepared to die trusting Him.

“Sovereignty”: Although Satan wreaked havoc in Job’s life on earth, the limits of his activity were (and are) clearly set by God. Satan can go only so far. This serves as a template for viewing evil on earth. Satan does not operate as a free agent but is always under the sovereign and deciding hand of God (chapters 1 and 2).
So what does it mean for you?
In Job’s most dreadful and difficult situation, this broken man caught startling glimpses of God and God’s work in his life beyond what he, or perhaps anyone else, had ever seen. Millennia before Jesus walked this earth as the God-Man, Job saw One who would be Redeemer, Mediator, Friend, Guide, Advocate, and Perfecter of faith, Job saw these intense, beautiful images through his tears.
Those who turn fully to God in their great sorrow, even if they argue, plead, and protest in His presence as job did, will find a pathway nearer to the tender mercies of heaven than they have ever walked before.
Believers talk about trusting in the Lord with their whole heart and refusing to lean on their own understanding. But no one really knows what that means until circumstances cast them headfirst into a dark and painful place. If we give ourselves fully to God in those moments, we will obtain keepsakes of Him to treasure now and forever.

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@Dr.Franklin
Where did you plagiarize this from?
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some place....
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The Book of Job at its beginning, Job seems to be a book about human suffering. By its conclusion, the true subject of the book emerges: God’s sovereignty.


Oh yes , JOB!  One of gods faithfuls treated like shite for a bet and to prove a point.  House collapses killing all of Jobs children, no worries, he can have others. All his livestock killed, no problem , he can get more.  His house is destroyed, no matter, he can build another. This god didn't let up did he. One would have thought the murder of  all his children by this psychopathic jealous god would have sufficed.
Why wasn't the wager about converting a sinner to the path of righteousness.?

It doesn't go unnoticed either that satan has been walking around free as a bird doing his thing one minute and the next he's having  a laugh and joke and good ole' chinwag and  betting with god who is faithful or not to whom. Tell me, what is worse than losing a child? Never mind ALL of ones children
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@Stephen
The fall created suffering, 
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@Dr.Franklin
bwuahahahahahaha
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@Dr.Franklin
The fall created suffering, 

Have you read the story of Job or not? This was god's doing if you read it correctly. It was instigated by god, the fall isn't even mentioned and satan who had once been made a pariah and forced to crawl around on his belly was now sitting down after his leisurely sojourn chatting and having wagers with god. 
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yeet
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@Dr.Franklin
I hope there isn't anyone here who thinks Job is a 'true story'!

Other than a passing reference in Zechariah this is the only OT book with Satan in it and its plain that Satan is a loyal servant of God, albeit a high-status one and he and god are almost matey!

As a mere servant, Satan can only act against Job because God grants him the power to do so, which God does seemingly for no reason other than the bragging rights.

I suppose it's intended to show how a good yhwhistic Hebrew should behave in the face of ill-fortune. 

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@keithprosser
genesis has Satan in it, The fall revolves around him
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@Dr.Franklin
Citation.
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@disgusted
nah
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@Dr.Franklin
I know, all godists run when asked for evidence.
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@disgusted
That'snot evidence
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@Dr.Franklin
T'was the serpent, not Satan, that tempteth Eve...

It was probably John Milton's 'Paradise Lost' that made the confusion wide spread.  Great poem!

Hail horrours, hail
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor:   One who brings
A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.

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@keithprosser
interesting.
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@Dr.Franklin
In PL satan takes on the form of a serpent in order to trick adam and Eve.

The Serpent sleeping, in whose mazie foulds
To hide me, and the dark intent I bring.
O foul descent! that I who erst contended
With Gods to sit the highest, am now constraind
Into a Beast, and mixt with bestial slime,
This essence to incarnate and imbrute,
That to the hight of Deitie aspir’d;
But what will not Ambition and Revenge
Descend to?
(Book 2, lines 161 etc).

But that isn't biblical.

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@keithprosser
ok 
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@keithprosser
Satan in it and its plain that Satan is a loyal servant of God, albeit a high-status one and he and god are almost matey!

As a mere servant, Satan can only act against Job because God grants him the power to do so, which God does seemingly for no reason other than the bragging rights. 


Yes already pointed out. Your good at doing that. You either state the fkn obvious or repeat what someone has already said.


I suppose it's intended to show how a good yhwhistic Hebrew should behave in the face of ill-fortune.  

No, it was simply to prove himself who was boss , who had more influence and power of the two. It was a fkn wager at the end of the day not a lesson in how to pick yourself up and brush yourself off after losing everything you own and all you children.

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@Stephen
No, it was simply to prove himself who was boss , who had more influence and power of the two. It was a fkn wager at the end of the day not a lesson in how to pick yourself up and brush yourself off after losing everything you own and all you children.
Do you seriously propose the writer of Job only wanted to tell a funny story about God and Satan having a bet one day?  It is most deinitely a lesson in how no matter what a good yhwhist should not give up their faith in God's greatness.

It is about who is boss, but not between God and Satan but between God and Man - and the answer given is most definitely 'God'.     God doesn't explain or justify his actions to Job - he doesn't have to. When Job asks, God puts him in hisplace and spends chapters 38,39,40 and 41 listing all the powers He has that Job does not.

It has to be borne in mind that the Hebrew god was not the 'god of love' of Christianity but a god of power.  He was dangerous - you wanted to keep him 'on side' because then he would make sure your enemies were defeated and disasters were averted, but He was under no compulsion to be nice. 

He had to be constantly bribed with sacrifices, worship and obedience or his power would be turned against you.  As a leader, he was Idi Amin, not Ghandi. 








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@keithprosser
Do you seriously propose the writer of Job only wanted to tell a funny story about God and Satan having a bet one day? 

There was nothing funny about it , what are you now, a fk clown.

what a good yhwhist should not give up their faith in God's greatness.

It was power,and nothing to do with faith. 


It has to be borne in mind that the Hebrew god was not the 'god of love' of Christianity but a god of power.

FM! You just love stating the bleedin' obvious and repeating what has already been said, don't you?
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@Stephen
What I said might be obvious - but it contradicts what you said!

You posted "it was simply to prove himself who was boss , who had more influence and power of the two", implying it was about which of god and satan ('the two') was the more powerful.

IMO, Job is not about that at all!

Also you asked "Why wasn't the wager about converting a sinner to the path of righteousness.?"  Well, my answer is (as above):

"It has to be borne in mind that the Hebrew god was not the 'god of love' of Christianity but a god of power.  He was dangerous - you wanted to keep him 'on side' because then he would make sure your enemies were defeated and disasters were averted, but He was under no compulsion to be nice. 

He had to be constantly bribed with sacrifices, worship and obedience or his power would be turned against you.  As a leader, he was Idi Amin, not Ghandi."

If you don't want obvious answers, don't ask stupid questions.
 

 



1498 days later

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An Atheist myself,
But I am fond of my Christian family, Christian heritage, my parents who raised me in it, and their parents to them. . . .

There's still wisdom in the Bible,
Though I am uncertain of original and later author's intents,
There's worth in one's own interpretation.

Bad things happen in life,
To me, the Book of Job is existentialist, it 'acknowledges these bad happenings, the paradox,
It comments on human interpretation,
Job's 'friends 'theories,

Despite his hardships, there is something comforting Job finds in his faith,
Some meaning,
I myself am a Materialist and a Nihilist, Yet there's something to existence I find meaningful despite my objective theories of it.
Ecclesiastes too, I find meaning in,
though I am unable or unwilling to believe in God, or an after.
Still, faith, faith is very human, atheist or theist, to my view.

Just got off work, so I am tired, and my mind wanders.

9Then Job’s wife said to him, “Do you still retain your integrity? Curse God and die!”
10“You speak as a foolish woman speaks,” he told her. “Should we accept from God only good and not adversity?”
Berean Standard Bible

I do sometimes wonder, if there 'could be good without evil,
I think people 'judge good and evil a fair bit, by what of it they experience.

A person who has been pampered all their life,
Treats it as an end of the world, if they encounter a bit of adversity,
Compared to a person made stronger by it.
That's not to say we should not want good lives, though JFK says "Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men."

But the point of it is that evil exists at all.
People who believe in an afterlife, often believe reckoning awaits there, good or ill.
. . .

Good works are there own reward, think others,
The trope of a suffering hero, acting right despite, is a popular one, regardless of religion.
Vash the Stampede.

Though interestingly, some people take the opposite approach,
(Censored) by (Censored),
Though I've not read that myself, too much depravity I hear,
Simple plot being an individual tries to be good, suffers then dies, while their sibling who took some evil routes was successful.

One cannot expect good to be 'certain in this life, following one's own good actions, good intents,
Though I do think a number of 'good actions, results favorably for people, often.
"28 The wicked run when no one is chasing them, but an honest person is as brave as a lion."
Proverbs 28 Good News Translation
. .
Just good basic human psychology,
People fear punishment, retaliation, or simply others.
I think people often see themselves in others,
If one lives as an evil murderous mean person, they see this in everyone actions, intents, thoughts.
. .
Though perhaps some humans are simply predatory, seeing others as sheep, well, rules of thumb.

Leibniz suggested that this be the best of all possible worlds,
Though Voltaire disagrees. .
. .
Still, one one speaks of the best of all possible games,
Is it the games 'design, or a 'specific playthrough of a game played some fond memory of a particularly good game session.

Lot of humans are fond of free will, or life.

Though Antinatalists will often argue nonexistence to be better than existence,
Suffering in a life, putting it below the zero of existence.
Yet up that hill, people will roll a boulder.
. .

Something 'necessary, this existence, it's evils, though we are happy for the good, thinks the theist.




7 days later

#24
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@Lemming
So poorly constructed buildings collapse and people are  killed.

Time to write GOD myth theory for sure.

Do you remember when those goats almost drowned in the swollen river.

And a women named Nora rowed out and rescued them.

Ended up with the big boat GOD myth theory.


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@zedvictor4
Whether one believes in God or not,
Suffering and loss,
How one 'handles said suffering and loss,
Are worthy themes.

One doesn't need to be a theist,
To suffer,
To curse good and die,
Or curse good and deal evil to others,
To turn from good ethics, instead focusing on the selfish ethics.
. .
One see's much 'often in people,
But, the suffering 'can be carried, endured, to an extent.
Though there is no guarantee of everything working out in the end,
Though perhaps believers in an after have more hope.

Good deeds are their own reward.

Love Your Enemies
27But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.
35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Though I suppose this passage also mentions reward, eh, it also mentions no reward.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

zedvictor4, I ask you, does reading of the Bible be only about proving God?
Are there no lessons we can take for it, simply reflective of human nature, human want, human experience?
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@Lemming
I think that reacting in a certain way to certain situations becomes a standard social expectation.

The currently popular Spanish football issue is a good example of a recently acquired adverse response to what was previously a normal situation.

I'm not sure that any of this type of behaviour actually improves human society.

Just creates new divisions.

Just like 2000 years ago...New religion created new division.




Reading the bible proves that MEN wrote the bible, and a book written by men will never prove GOD

That said...As an archaic hypothesis, some of the myths and tales of the OT and reasonably analogous. Adam and Eve being a prime example.

NT is the writings of gullible men...Hero worshipping charismatic individuals  and elevating them to a mythical status is a common phenomena, and the perpetuation of myths is also common practice.

So much of the modern bible was fabricated way after the event.

I'm not sure that we can learn much from tall tales or extract a great deal historical fact from the extensively translated, transcribed and reinterpreted Christian bible.


The post-dated exaggerations of gullible sycophants should never be taken at face value. That's a simple lesson to learn.




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@Lemming
27But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies,

Remind me, how many deaths is the loving god responsible for now?
 For instance in just these two example off the top of my head:

"Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”1 Samuel 15:3 ?

Or this one:


Nahum 1:2
God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies?

Yep I can feel the love of the Lord just pouring out all over the place in those verses.



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@zedvictor4
Just like 2000 years ago...New religion created new division.

Absolutely spot on Vic, lad.

All purposefully engineered by the "new gods"  of the new millennium that usher in their new religion/way of life . The ancients too had their  "great reset", "new normal" and "building back better".  It is a running theme that is easily traced all the way through from before and up to the Old and New Testaments.. As I keep saying, the OT is nothing but a war book of wars fought by men on behalf of their new and old gods. In a nutshell, the old were extremely reluctant to hand power to the new..... without a fight.
 

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@Stephen
(Shrug)
The Bible says a lot of things.
The Bible 'is a lot of things.
I find value in it.
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@Lemming
27But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies,

Remind me, how many deaths is the loving god responsible for now?
 For instance in just these two example off the top of my head:

"Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”1 Samuel 15:3 ?

Or this one:


Nahum 1:2
God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies?

Yep I can feel the love of the Lord just pouring out all over the place in those verses.


The Bible says a lot of things.

 And among those " lots of "things", it certainly contradicts itself lots of times.  Unless you can explain them away, can you?



I find value in it.[the bible]

Such as?