Those Battling 45,000 Denominations

Author: RoderickSpode

Posts

Total: 308
#211
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@RoderickSpode
If you go to a roadhouse in Alabama and do a survey, then I'll believe you. But if you get any "Naw, Ah don't beeleeve in no God", then your theory is rendered void.

The other two, I notice, you have no objection to :). There's plenty of places to find people who believe in god getting into brawls, you know. A very large percentage of this country claims to be Christian, so chances are pretty good if you're seeing a brawl, then more than one Christian is involved. I bet most of the people at that Colorado little league game last week that got into a brawl over a 13 year old umpire's call were Christians, doesn't that prove my point? 
#212
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Mopac
First Peter 3:15 is the point, isn't it? It's good to see the Christian persecution complex is something all denominations can agree on though. Jesus said you'd say I was dumb, and you are saying I'm dumb, so Jesus is real, I guess is your argument?

I'd be interested to see you have a fruitful conversation with anyone, full stop. It looks to be a real challenge for you. 
#213
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@ludofl3x
Yet it is written in Paul's second letter to Timothy, "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes."

Don't blame me for resisting you when you are being rude and haughty. All I am asking of you is that you engqge me in a manner that is conducive to discussion.
Topic's author
#214
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@croweupc
And I quote “eternal conscious torment”.

Buddhist don’t believe in permanence.

 I think my overall point is being missed, I’m not Buddhist.
I know you're not a Buddhist.


From a Christian standpoint, after we pass on we leave our time-contained dimension into a timeless dimension. So what we would call temporary or permanent would be very difficult to define. There are verses in the Bible that also seem to suggest hell being temporal. And this may be due to our inability to fully understand a timeless dimension.

Even in our time/dimension, theoretically we're still in pain from the time we broke our arm, or got our finger slammed in the car door. If we were to go back in time, we'd either witness ourselves still in pain, or maybe even re-experience it. I don't know how Buddhists view time in relation to the after-life dimension, but we're talking an extremely long period of time in agony. Can you imagine, say, being in torment for a billion years?
would you feel comforted knowing that all you had to do was wait a billion years, and then you will be torment free?

What you seem to be saying is, Buddhism is cool because the torment may take only billions of years, and Christianity isn't cool because the torment is eternal.
Topic's author
#215
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@ludofl3x

The other two, I notice, you have no objection to :). There's plenty of places to find people who believe in god getting into brawls, you know. A very large percentage of this country claims to be Christian, so chances are pretty good if you're seeing a brawl, then more than one Christian is involved. I bet most of the people at that Colorado little league game last week that got into a brawl over a 13 year old umpire's call were Christians, doesn't that prove my point? 
No, it doesn't. You have to show me that they were actually Christians. Just speculating doesn't mean anything to me. Chances are, some were atheists. I would say more than likely.
#216
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@RoderickSpode
What he is really saying is "my judgment has nothing to do with truth, just what sounds nicer to me."



#217
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Mopac
So you pick which one of those verses to follow at a given moment? I like how you pick the one that lets you be a pussy about what you believe in, afraid to make any real attempt at answering the question, "HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU'RE DOING IT RIGHT" in any valid way. I tried a while to engage you in a way conducive to conversations, you're not interested, you've made zero honest attempts at proper conversation. "Do you believe reality is real?" is just deepity nonsense, even you know that. 

#218
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@ludofl3x
I am not being unreasonable, ludofl3x. Of course you aren't going to see the consistency in what we believe, the holy spirit isn't with you.


You are welcome to speak to me as a reasonable adult rather than a petulant and weak child.
#219
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@RoderickSpode
You have to show me that they were actually Christians
I've not interviewed them, but according to Pew, 65% of Colorado reports as Christian. 9% report as atheist or agnostic. Mathematically, then, you'd have about a 7:1 ratio of Christians to atheists in any given brawl. How would I SHOW you they were actually Christians? It would be exceptionally unlikely that some 20 adults in one of the most Christian states in the country happened to all be atheists AND all be at a baseball game, right? Sure, it's likely that 2 of 20 (generously rounding up) were atheists, but if you accept that, then at least 13 of them were Christians. Since there's a 10 point gap between atheist+agnostc (9%) and "Unaffiliated", (20%), it seems reasonable to say that those people are 'spritual' and just don't go to church but grew up Christians. Since they're not atheists and they're not agnostics, I think it's not unfair to say 2 of the remaining 5 people were likely Christians in their hearts. Those two you can argue, but the other 13, sorry, they'd be Christian. 

Or were you making the "they're not really Christians" even though they say they are argument? 
#220
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@ludofl3x
Self declaration is not proof of identity.

But of course, if you believe little boys when they say they are little girls, I am not going to convince you of that.





#221
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Mopac
Surprise, a no true Scotsman! How do you identify 'true' Christians, then? Is it "the ones in my club"? 
#222
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@ludofl3x
Fallacy misidentification is in itself a fallacy.

But you are not asking me because you want an answer. You are simply mocking.


Because you are, as I said, behaving in an immature manner.



#223
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Mopac
And as you continually show, you're not interested in answering questions, just pretending you're above the fray and the holiest of all of these holy folks. How do you tell if someone's really a Christian if you can't take them at their word, what's the technique? 
#224
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@ludofl3x
You are projecting your own haughtiness on to me.

I am simply waiting for you to stop being whipped around wildly by your passions, and engage me in a civilized, reasonable, adult like manner that is conducive to conversation.







#225
croweupc
croweupc's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 57
0
0
4
croweupc's avatar
croweupc
0
0
4
-->
@RoderickSpode
I would never suggest torment is good for any amount of time. I really only had the four noble truths and the eightfold path in mind. From my understanding they believe in reincarnation, so in that sense everything is impermanent. I was referring to hell in the classical orthodox view. I am fully aware of the different interpretations of hell. Many religions have philosophical problems and paradoxical problems. I cannot mention them all here and was trying to keep it somewhat on subject with the topic. I do consider the countless denominations to be evidence against the proposition that the Bible is the inspired word of God.
#226
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
I predict that instead of correcting your behavior and engaging me like an adult, you are going to double down and continue to hurl abuse my way while defending yourself in vain. Maybe even try to turn it around on me.


Well, if you do as I predict, this conversation will be useless. If you adjust to the right attitude, maybe we will have a fruitful conversation.

Called it.
Topic's author
#227
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@ludofl3x
You have to show me that they were actually Christians
I've not interviewed them, but according to Pew, 65% of Colorado reports as Christian. 9% report as atheist or agnostic. Mathematically, then, you'd have about a 7:1 ratio of Christians to atheists in any given brawl. How would I SHOW you they were actually Christians? It would be exceptionally unlikely that some 20 adults in one of the most Christian states in the country happened to all be atheists AND all be at a baseball game, right? Sure, it's likely that 2 of 20 (generously rounding up) were atheists, but if you accept that, then at least 13 of them were Christians. Since there's a 10 point gap between atheist+agnostc (9%) and "Unaffiliated", (20%), it seems reasonable to say that those people are 'spritual' and just don't go to church but grew up Christians. Since they're not atheists and they're not agnostics, I think it's not unfair to say 2 of the remaining 5 people were likely Christians in their hearts. Those two you can argue, but the other 13, sorry, they'd be Christian. 

Or were you making the "they're not really Christians" even though they say they are argument? 
No, I wasn't making any such suggestion. Which leads to interesting question.


If you did interview some patrons at an Alabama roadhouse one weekend night at 0100, and one person gave you his drunken confession that he's a member of the First Baptist Church of Mobile, but does not believe God exists, is that man a Christian or an atheist?

The thing with your ratio-scenario is that it only shows that since there are more Christians, there's more likely to be more involved in a brawl. That doesn't suggest atheists are more moral. In other words, if the majority of those who attended the little league game were atheists, then more than likely most involved in the brawl would be atheist, right?


Topic's author
#228
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@croweupc
Well again, realizing you're not a Buddhist who seems to be making a positive statement for Buddhism against Christianity, as I'm sure you know there are different factions within Buddhism as well.
#229
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@RoderickSpode
Interesting fact, Jesus said "blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God"

The eightfold path in Buddhism is actually a guideline to heart purification.

That said, there is nothing that buddhism has that isn't already a part of Orthodox Christianity. I would say that Christ completes what is missing in Buddhism. We also have a rich monastic tradition.






#230
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,247
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
I think being accepting of a plurality of denominations is basically being accepting that the Bible is open to interpretation. Which I would agree with.

As long as there are atheists and secular left-wingers, it won't surprise me to see Christians generally getting along.

#231
croweupc
croweupc's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 57
0
0
4
croweupc's avatar
croweupc
0
0
4
-->
@RoderickSpode
The only positive claim I made was that Buddhism is more profound. There are many things they believe both of us would find strange. Every religion I know about has multiple sects who disagree on various points which to me proves its fallibility.
#232
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Castin
That is a very protestant idea, but it is not what we Orthodox believe.






#233
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@croweupc
There is plenty that is profound in the.writings of the saints.

#234
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Mopac
Neither does she. 
#235
croweupc
croweupc's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 57
0
0
4
croweupc's avatar
croweupc
0
0
4
-->
@Mopac
I will not claim there is nothing profound within Christianity writings, just not as profound. When I say profound, I am not talking about just an extraordinary claim because Christianity has plenty of that, but rather in practicality. For instance, there is nothing practical about baptism or a resurrection. They fit the narrative of the Bible quite well, but if God is all powerful, these truly are unnecessary. Why did God require blood sacrifice for sin? The NT has a human sacrifice for sin, and again why? Why does God require blood to appease him? The sacraments seem meaningless to an all powerful, all knowing, and all loving God. There are so many arbitrary rules and laws in the Bible. In the OT they were required to pick up stones and throw them at people (sometimes the entire family including children) who disobey even the least of these laws. This is supposed to be the same God in the NT, but clearly Jesus disagrees with some OT laws and changes them. Christianity is nothing like Judaism from which it came. Most Christians do not even follow the Sabbath, the most holy day. Hypocrisy at its best.
#236
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@croweupc
There is plenty that is practical in the writings of the saints. In fact, I would argue that the good majority is practical.

Something that protestantism doesn't have is a real therepeutic method. 
#237
croweupc
croweupc's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 57
0
0
4
croweupc's avatar
croweupc
0
0
4
-->
@Mopac
You make a lot of generalizations without much substance. Why is that?
#238
croweupc
croweupc's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 57
0
0
4
croweupc's avatar
croweupc
0
0
4
Protestants came after the printing press after the Bible was able to be read by anyone. Before this the church had under lockdown and killed anyone who disagreed. This doesn’t happen anymore because the general public has access to the Bible. Study history, not what your church tells you.
#239
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@croweupc
The Roman Catholic Church broke away from The Orthodox Catholic Church nearly 500 years prior to the reformation. They are technically heretics. 

It is reqlly not that big of a surprise to us that the reformation happened. Unfortunately, there were a lot of barriers keeping the reformers from finding their way back to the Orthodox Church. Not the least of which being that at this time, most of the church was under Muslim rule and politically isolated from the west.

#240
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@croweupc
Studying history is actually a big part of what lead me to Orthodoxy.

History happens to be one of my favorite subjects. I will go out on a limb and say that I probably know more about the reformation than you. 

Also, I don't appreciate the fact that you keep insinuating that I don't have a mind of my own. It makes you look very prejudice.