Ramshutu’s Razor

Author: Ramshutu

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#1
Ramshutu
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I think I shared this ages ago on DDO, but is worth restating here as it’s an interesting argument. Here it goes:


With the presupposition that God has the power to create the universe as he chooses, and is smarter than Humans:

1.) Religions all state that God has a generalized set of goals for the universe, and inherent properties (just, loving)). If a human can postulate a better universe that better matches those properties and fulfills those goals - that God does not exist.

2.) The goals and properties of the gods of all current human religions can be better fulfilled with a different universe that humans can think odd - therefore those Gods do not exist.

And the final speculative thesis:

3.) There are no goals and properties one could speculate of god for which this universe is the most optimal solution. Therefore no Gods exist that match the listed presuppositions.

#2
n8nrgmi
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if the goal is for something good to come from something bad, then this universe could make the most sense. 

if free will can only exist in an imperfect world, then an imperfect world makes sense. or in other words, what sounds imperfect is in some sense perfect for the purposes of God. 

if it is better to be saved from sin, than to have no sin to begin with, then this world makes sense. "oh happy fault, which gained for us so great a Redeemer". 
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@Ramshutu
Religions all state that God has a generalized set of goals for the universe

And what do you think those goals are in Orthodox Christianity?

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@n8nrgmi
So, you’ve actually raised three subtly different points:

1.) Bad things can happen from Good things.

2.) If free will exists, there needs to be inperfection.

3.) You need temptation and the possibly of sin to be saved.


So let’s presume that’s all true - we should presume that the universe does all of that perfectly without introducing any unnecessary suffering. Let’s take a couple of specific examples:

Loa Loa filariasis is a type of endemic parasite that lives in people’s eyes and makes them go blind, this has little to do with free will, as it’s not related to anyone’s actions. Given that it affects millions, the overall harm and suffering it presents to individuals over the centuries doesn’t appear to be commensurate to any of the positives that can be gained over eyesight loss being, say, temporary. No?

Likewise, Volcanoes - they largely just kill people who live nearby indiscriminately, while a few hero stories of people who made it out are nice: there’s not a great deal of Good that can come out an obliterated town.

Likewise Paedophilia. While people need to have free will in this Godly universe, there’s no necessity in any scenario for human adults to be sexually attracted children to the extent that they are driven to rape and murder three year olds.

If these three options are the goals: then by all means, jealous, anger, murder, assault: but those at sinful temptations enough, why bother adding drive to rape children to some individuals on top of all that? 


1.) So lets have a universe where any bad event, always have multiple individuals in a place or location to render aid or assistance; to allow humans to decide to be good, and allow all suffering to lead to a good outcome through the actions of others. Natural disasters only ever displace people, rendering them reliant on others rather than outright kill them. No pointless suffering for which there’s little objective chance of resolution.

2.) So no child rape and torture - humans kill, mame, and can still sin, no problems!

3.) The possibility of sin and free will are still there, just pointless suffering is removed.


The issue with Felix Culpa is that it’s a naive excuse and dismissive non explanation for the state of the world; in reality, humans could design better scenarios and situations.







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#6
Ramshutu
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@Mopac
You tell me.
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@Ramshutu
Are you saying that you are merely presuming and not speaking with knowledge that...

Religions all state that God has a generalized set of goals for the universe

Because that is what it sounds like.

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#8
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@Mopac
Well, no; most flavours of Christianity are based off various concepts of free will, suffering has some benefit to some degree. The big issues are one of God being loving, just; wanting you to believe him with faith, and a whole variety of options in between. There’s variations in hell being eternal, hell being simply death, individuals just needing belief, or needing to be good people too, At its core all flavours of Christianity have some variation of the above; and explanations for evil and suffering that are mostly identical to Ngarmis above. 

Given that your beliefs will fall under that broad umbrella - it most assuredly would be disprovable through that same umbrella.

However, of course, asking you to to come up with your own goals andandatss is more of a specific challenge to you about how much you’ve bothered to actually justify your own faith - which I suspect is very little.
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Fallaneze
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@Ramshutu
God's existence is a prerequisite for moral realism, so "better" can't be meaningful.
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@Ramshutu
Orthodox Christianity is quite a bit different than heterodox Christianity. The heterodox are after all, not with the Church.


The Orthodox Catholic Church is the original Christian Church. Even if you have a bad understanding of Roman papalist Christianity or protestant Christianity, you are still getting your information from schismatics and/or heretics. We actually know the God we worship.


We know that God is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, and there is no argument that stands against this God.
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@Ramshutu
But to go even further, to think that belief in one's vain imaginings can somehow disprove the ultimate reality's existence is ridiculous.

Think about it.

"I don't like the way things are, so I'm going to imagine a better world... reality overturned!"


Rather silly. I think your razor is rusty.

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#12
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@Fallaneze
If God’s the predicate for Moral realism, and we find a scenario that is objectively better - then God doesn’t exist and he isn’t the predicate for moral realism.
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Ramshutu
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@Mopac
You believe in be Christian God. That has limited scope and meaning, and limited only in marrow imterpretational differences.

While there are differences in orthodoxy and regular Christianity, they’re within the same umbrella: God is loving to some degree, free will is important, suffering has a necessary purpose.

As a result, if I can make a better universe for what you think God wants; your God does not and cannot exist - no matter what other nonsense arguments you make.

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@Mopac
You’re missing a key issue.

You’re implicitly claiming that God is smarter than me, and made the perfect universe.

I can prove that this implicit claim is untrue - which means that your claimed God can not logically exist - no matter how much you emphatically shout at how true it is.

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@Ramshutu


You are saying that The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist. That is the Christian God.


If you are saying The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist, you have adopted a self defeating and nihilistic position.
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@Ramshutu
If you think you are smarter than God, that is a sure sign that you are delusional.

I don't think you know what you are saying.

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#17
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@Mopac
I’m saying that if I can think of a better universe than the Christian God can, then the Christian God cannot exist.

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#18
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@Mopac
You seem to be irrationally misunderstanding the nature of the argument.

I’m not saying I’m smarter than God; I’m saying that if I can imagine a better universe that better serves the properties of your God - than your God can’t exist - no matter how many times you irrationally shout at how he is the ultimate reality.

If can do better, your God can’t exist.

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@Ramshutu
If God’s the predicate for Moral realism, and we find a scenario that is objectively better - then God doesn’t exist and he isn’t the predicate for moral realism.
There are a lot of "ifs" and hypotheticals floating around here but the question is how do you come up with a better without an omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, unchanging, eternal Being? IOW's, should I believe your opinion is better than mine?

What gives a limited subjective human knowledge of objectively understanding what is better? What is the standard you use to come up with better?

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@Ramshutu
The fact that reality does not conform to your arbitrary sense of aesthetics is not any indication that you can somehow poof it out of existence through your vain imaginings.

If the ultimate reality doesn't exist, then nothing is ultimately real. As there is clearly some form of existence as is scientifically proven by everyones experience... there is clearly some form of reality. Even if illusory, it still exists as illusion. If there is reality at all, and there is, the ultimate reality is a necessary existence.

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@Mopac
The beauty of the argument is that I’m not appealing to my sense of aesthetics, but to Gods.

If I can do better than your God at meeting his desires - your god doesn’t exist. Something else would be “the ultimate reality”. But kudos on the ridiculous circular argument.


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@Ramshutu
The Ultimate Reality is God. If you make God to mean anything else, you are no longer talking about the same thing as me, but are propping up a straw man.

If God doesn't exist, then what you are calling God does not even fulfill the basic essence of what God is. 

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#23
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@PGA2.0
What standard do I use at judging why is better? The very standards the religious give me about God’s desires and wants. This is not operating in a vacuum driven by my opinions - that’s the point.


If you tell me God wants X, and I am able to provide A universe that better satisfies X, your God cannot exist. 

In reality that proof would look like a theist saying “While there is no plausible or reasonable condition that I can posit why your posited universe is not objectively better - I am forced to believe it is, and the benefit is just unknown”. 


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Ramshutu
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@Mopac
I’m not going to go down the insane irrational Circular rabbit hole where you assert that God is reality.

Reality is reality. Whether it is God or not depends on what you can prove, not how loudly you can shout that God is reality.


Unfortunately, as your God appears unable to create a universe that is as good as mine at meeting his own goals - it is probable that yoe God cannot exist; and therefore the ultimate reality cannot be your God.



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@Ramshutu
The Church has always understood God as such.

And nothing about our spirituality can make sense without the understanding that we worship The Truth as God.

Your reasoning is nonsense, and utter folly. You cannot create a universe through your vain imaginings. You cannot even create an ant.


You don't know God, you are arguing from a position of ignorance.

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@Ramshutu
Something can only be "better" relative to some goal. Without God, humanity can't have inherent goals. This means that whatever goals we come up with are imaginary and can't be objectively better or worse than any other goal.

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@Ramshutu
What standard do I use at judging why is better? The very standards the religious give me about God’s desires and wants. This is not operating in a vacuum driven by my opinions - that’s the point.
I don't follow - "judging why is better?"

What do you mean?

You said, "2.) The goals and properties of the gods of all current human religions can be better fulfilled with a different universe that humans can think odd - therefore those Gods do not exist."

What does this mean? Better according to you? Why should your shifting, subjective, relative standard be the one all others follow?



If you tell me God wants X, and I am able to provide A universe that better satisfies X, your God cannot exist. 
So far you are just begging the question that you can. What is X? Why is X better, because you like it?

"Better" is just an opinion and preference unless you can demonstrate a final, ultimate, universal standard or measure. What do I care about what you believe is "Better" unless you can produce such a standard and reference point? Your view is no "better" than any other view if you have no fixed reference. So, again, I ask, what is this standard that has a qualitative valued system that you can term something "better?" YOU? Your opinion?

You are not a necessary being. Why is your moral opinion any "better" than mine or Kim Jong-un's? 


In reality that proof would look like a theist saying “While there is no plausible or reasonable condition that I can posit why your posited universe is not objectively better - I am forced to believe it is, and the benefit is just unknown”. 

I have what is capable of making sense of better and is a necessary condition (omniscient, omnipresent, unchanging, eternal, living, loving, omnibenevolent Being). Demonstrate you do have such a standard that is necessary and can make sense of morality since you are bringing to the discussion qualitative values (better than what and in whose opinion?).
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@Fallaneze
Humanity could quite plausibly have inherent goals, especially within the context of an evolutionary sequence. 

Obviously we get hung up on our bit of the sequence, but our bit of the sequence is probably just a nanosecond within the context of the complete universal sequence.

And there may well be a G.O.D. principle. Though I suspect that G.O.D. is not what it is traditionally assumed to be.


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#29
Ramshutu
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@Mopac
Again; I don’t entirely know what planet you’re on: but the concept here is that if your God exists, I should not be able
to imagine a universe that better fulfills the goals attributed to him. If I can, that God cannot exists.

I’m not actually going to create a universe, and it doesn’t matter how much you irrationally scream that God is reality and so exists: if I can imagine better, your god isnt real.

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Ramshutu
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@Fallaneze
So: let’s ignore for the moment the nonsensical assertion that it’s not possible to have goals without God. That is a new one for me, I quite like the way you offer no explanation or logic for that claim. 

I want to run a 20 minute 5k, I don’t need god to exist in order to show that  24 minutes is better than 25.

So lets say you have your God, and you have a list of Goals you feel God has.

If God is real, then I should not be able to imagine a better universe. Even assuming your absurd “goals are because of God” is true, that means if I can think of better, then your God doesn’t exist. If I can think of an objectively better world using your Gods goals, indeed, it would demonstrate both claims about god and goals are both wrong.