Is Repulsion At The Homosexual Act Bigotry?

Author: ethang5

Posts

Total: 105
Topic's author
#61
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Goldtop
So, why are you watching homosexuals having sex?
Because you're stupid? Because you're an idiot? I gave up. Why?

Are you watching porn or something?
Wait. Is homosexual sex different from porn? Right now I'm watching you make a moron troll post. So I guess its "or something".

It you're repulsed, why do you keep watching?
Because you're stupid? Because you're an idiot? I gave up. Why?

(Just call me the troll whisperer)

#62
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
-->
@ethang5
If a man is repulsed at the sexual act between two men
Why you ask? Isn't it obvious? Those re your words from the OP, which can only be true if you're watching men having sex with each other. So, I asked you if that is indeed what you're doing in order to be repulsed?

Topic's author
#63
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
Why you ask? Isn't it obvious?
That you're stupid? Yes.

Those re your words from the OP, which can only be true if you're watching men having sex with each other.
You said it was obvious, and in fact it is!

So, I asked you if that is indeed what you're doing in order to be repulsed?
You didn't have to. It was already obvious that you're an idiot. But you like to hammer home a point eh?
#64
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,275
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@ethang5
ur mum gay lol
#65
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@ethang5
I think repulsion often drives bigotry, but I do not think it is itself bigotry. Consider that I am repulsed by vaginas--they just look gross. Like some kind of wierd sarlacc thing or a slimemold. That said, I can still believe that women deserve equal regard to men and that heterosexual sex is entirely morally permissible because I refuse to allow that disgust to shape my views to the exclusion of other, moral considerations.

Topic's author
#66
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
I think repulsion often drives bigotry, but I do not think it is itself bigotry. 
OK then. What is bigotry? When is it bigotry?

Consider that I am repulsed by vaginas--they just look gross.
Surely you can see the difference? Your repulsion goes against your biological anatomy. You have structures and systems made for vaginas. But that in itself is not a crime.

That said, I can still believe that women deserve equal regard to men and that heterosexual sex is entirely morally permissible because I refuse to allow that disgust to shape my views to the exclusion of other, moral considerations.
But all you've done here is say you are right because.....you're right. You assume "disgust" is what is shaping the person's view. The permissibility of sex in the person's view may have nothing to do with how disgusting he finds it. I asked about a person who has a moral objection the homosexuality. Though you did not call him a bigot, you described a bigot. Just as Keith did.

It is obvious that what makes a person a bigot to you includes that he does not agree that sex is morally permissible between homosexuals. And the public, taking its cue from homosexuals, will instantly become rude and abusive at any disagreement, not caring for the reason for the disagreement.

Observe mharman above. How could his position possibly be right if that is his opening post? Do you think he cares about my morality or what shapes my view? He can't even distinguish that I have been only asking questions, and of a hypothetical person. Where do you think he gets that? Your post bsh1, is just an expanded, more educated version of his. But essentially the same. Making the same assumptions based on the same biases.

For some people, it is not disgust but morality that shapes their view of homosexuality. And some such people are even sometimes homosexual themselves. But if you begin with the definition of bigot being, "whoever disagrees with me", one can see why you see bigots under every rock, and why those " bigots" oppose you so passionately.
#67
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
Repulsion is an assumed response relative to how an individual has been repressively conditioned.

I was brought up to be open minded and never really consider what other people might or might not do to each other.

I personally think that people who are always thinking and worrying about other peoples sexual behaviour are somewhat perverse and therefore any criticism that they might proffer is always going to be somewhat bigoted.
Topic's author
#68
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@zedvictor4
I was brought up to be open minded....

I personally think that people who are always thinking and worrying about other peoples sexual behaviour are somewhat perverse and therefore any criticism that they might proffer is always going to be somewhat bigoted.

This, Gentle Readers, is open mindedness.
#69
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@ethang5
Eth:
I asked about a person who has a moral objection the homosexuality. Though you did not call him a bigot, you described a bigot. Just as Keith did.
Having a moral objection does not make anyone a bigot, but bigots generally have (or claim to have) a moral objection.   

Eth:
What about when the guy has a moral objection, are you asking him to be tolerant of immorality?
That is - perhaps accidentally - a badly stated question.   It could mean

a) What about when the guy has a moral objection to something, are you asking him to be tolerant of it, whatever it may be?

or it could mean

b) What about when the guy has a moral objection to homosexuality, are you asking him to be tolerant of homosexuality?

Obviously I wouldn't ask anyone to be tolerant of murder or rape.   My answer was specfic to homosexuality - and I would ask him to be tolerant of homosexuality.  I would ask him to introspect to see where his objection to homosexuality comes from and it it is rational and justified.





Topic's author
#70
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@keithprosser
Having a moral objection does not make anyone a bigot,
OK. But it was misleading since you only spoke of bigots when asked about a moral objection.

bigots generally have (or claim to have) a moral objection.
As long as you realize your judgment call on them being bigots is just that.

My answer was specfic to homosexuality
So was the question.

I would ask him to be tolerant of homosexuality
Then you would be asking him to be tolerant of what he views as immorality.

I would ask him to introspect to see where his objection to homosexuality comes from and if it is rational and justified.
He could ask the same thing of your tolerance of homosexuality. And with your vested interest of being gay, your tolerance to homosexuality may come from self interest and not be rational and justified.
#71
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@ethang5
If I am not prepared to introspect and at least consider the possibility that my opinion could be wrong then I am a bigot regardless of what my opinion is.

I'd say there are bigots and non-bigots on both side of most moral disputes.

To be frank, bigot is not a term I use much.  It's not much more than a 'cuss word', an insult implying someone is too stupid to use rational thought.  At least that is how I would use it I did.... if I call anyone a bigot its because I think they are not even trying to think clearly, not because I disagree with them.
   
#72
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
-->
@ethang5
If a man is repulsed at the sexual act between two men
The solution is easy here Ethan, just stay away from the porn sites and stop watching men having sex, then you won't be repulsed.

You're welcome.
Topic's author
#73
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Goldtop
You cling to your stupidity like a prostitute to a dollar bill.

No mas. We're convinced.


#74
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@ethang5
You make some fair points, so I'll try to hit what I think are the key ones. Also, if you reply to me and want to continue the discussion, please @ me so that I see that you replied to me.

What is bigotry? 
Bigotry is intolerant and single-minded devotion to one's own arbitrary ideological prejudices, disgust-responses, or irrational beliefs.

Surely you can see the difference?
Sure I can, but what if I was a racist who believed that black skin was repulsive, and so discriminated against blacks? The point of my example was to illustrate that disgust is itself not a criterion by which to judge moral questions like the worth of persons or the moral permissibility of certain kinds of sexual acts.

The permissibility of sex in the person's view may have nothing to do with how disgusting he finds it. I asked about a person who has a moral objection the homosexuality. Though you did not call him a bigot, you described a bigot. Just as Keith did.
I was responding to the question (also the title of this thread) you posed first, namely: "is repulsion at the homosexual act bigotry?" Nowhere in that question, or in any of the questions of the OP, do you mention a "moral" objection. 

My answer to that first question is "no," because one can be repulsed by something, but still not allow their views of it to be defined in terms of their repulsion. A person repulsed by heterosexual sex could still come to believe that heterosexual sex is perfectly okay to engage in and that heterosexual people are of equal worth to him/her. In such a case, the persons disgust is not allowed to dictate the way they conceive of heterosexual sex. 

A moral objection to gay sex, to answer your new question, is not bigotry per se, unless it is rooted in disgust (thereby conflating disgust with moral reasons/justifications), arbitrary ideological prejudices, or irrational beliefs.

#75
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
-->
@ethang5
You cling to your stupidity
Yet, you're the one who can't seem to stop watching men having sex. Maybe you aren't actually repulsed and are just coming out of the closet, so to speak.

Topic's author
#76
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Goldtop
Here's another dollar pretty woman. Show us more of your stupidity.
#77
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
-->
@ethang5
Show us more of your stupidity.
Stupidity would be where you watch men having sex and then go on a public forum complaining about how you're repulsed by it, but then you just keep watching it. Seems this is a clear case of you coming out of the closet. Most likely, what you're actually repulsed about is the fact that you are gay and are just coming to that realization.

Congrats to Ethan for coming to terms with his homosexuality.

Topic's author
#78
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@bsh1
What is bigotry?

Bigotry is intolerant and single-minded devotion to one's own arbitrary ideological prejudices, disgust-responses, or irrational beliefs.
Surely you can see the difference?

Sure I can, but what if I was a racist who believed that black skin was repulsive, and so discriminated against blacks?
You've added in, "and so discriminated against" them. I only asked about the disgust.

The point of my example was to illustrate that disgust is itself not a criterion by which to judge moral questions like the worth of persons or the moral permissibility of certain kinds of sexual acts.
OK, but I specified that it was moral issues informing his views on permissibility of certain kinds of sexual acts. I said nothing about the worth of persons. You keep adding things like human worth and permissibility.

The permissibility of sex in the person's view may have nothing to do with how disgusting he finds it. I asked about a person who has a moral objection the homosexuality. Though you did not call him a bigot, you described a bigot. Just as Keith did.

I was responding to the question (also the title of this thread) you posed first, namely: "is repulsion at the homosexual act bigotry?" Nowhere in that question, or in any of the questions of the OP, do you mention a "moral" objection. 

OK. 

My answer to that first question is "no," because one can be repulsed by something, but still not allow their views of it to be defined in terms of their repulsion.
OK

A person repulsed by heterosexual sex could still come to believe that heterosexual sex is perfectly okay to engage in and that heterosexual people are of equal worth to him/her.
I don't see the connection between repulsion and considering people to be of equal worth, but OK.

In such a case, the persons disgust is not allowed to dictate the way they conceive of heterosexual sex. 
Why should it not? Why is it bad if it does?

A moral objection to gay sex, to answer your new question, is not bigotry per se,
Thank you.

unless it is rooted in disgust (thereby conflating disgust with moral reasons/justifications), arbitrary ideological prejudices, or irrational beliefs.
How would a person ever know whether the disgust is being conflated with moral reasons/justifications, arbitrary ideological prejudices, or irrational beliefs?

I suspect that anyone concluding that homosexuality is morally wrong will be judged by you as conflating morality with prejudices and irrational beliefs.

But you have answered well.
Topic's author
#79
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Goldtop
Thanks troll.

Here's a fiver. We want a table dance this time. Your stupidity is sexy.


#80
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
Two points in this thread, that have been brought up.

OP, repulsion of an act is not bigotry.  You'd have to be brainwashed or something to think repulsion is bigotry.

Secondly, there are lots of bad ideas that people need to tolerate.  Saying something is a bad idea is not bigotry.  It can be honest, and can be done in a loving manner.  



Additionally, repulsion to sex with that which you aren't sexually attracted, is not religious/moral conviction


#81
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@ethang5
If someone expresses an idea, and you are obstinate and let your prejudiced views dominate to the point where they couldn't effectively communicate with you, then we can talk about bigotry as there is proof of intolerance since you couldn't honestly consider the idea.
#82
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@ethang5
My answer was "Bigots don't use their brains to overcome that primitive tribal instinct - they use their brains to rationalise and justify their hate."

Check. People with moral judgements are bigots. Very progressive point of view.


Which aspect of the answer was  entertained equivocally with "moral judgement"?

Topic's author
#83
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Plisken
I think that is a reasonable position.

But.....

...views dominate to the point where they couldn't effectively communicate with you, then we can talk about bigotry as there is proof of intolerance since you couldn't honestly consider the idea.
Why does a person need to "communicate" to be deemed not a bigot? Why does he have to "consider an idea" to be deemed not a bigot?

Each of you have inadvertantly done the same thing, judge a person a bigot simply for not listening and agreeing. No one is under any obligation to consider any idea. It is his behavior that counts.

Keith say he doesn't believe in thought crimes, but what crime has a person committed who has only conflated his morality with his disgust?

Every time I ask about a person who is only repulsed, they talk about bigots. As is the mere repulsion is bigotry. When pressed, you all say, "repulsion of an act is not bigotry." But then go right ahead and talk about the person who is repulsed as a bigot.

repulsion to sex with that which you aren't sexually attracted, is not religious/moral conviction
But it can be.

Secondly, there are lots of bad ideas that people need to tolerate.
Why is homosexuality one of them? Why does homosexuality need to be "tolerated"? And what does "tolerate" mean? Must a person with a moral objection to homosexuality "tolerate" it?

If yes, why? Why must a person with a moral objection "tolerate" what he views as immorality? The homosexual does not tolerate in the least the views of those he thinks are immoral.
Topic's author
#84
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Plisken
Which aspect of the answer was  entertained equivocally with "moral judgement"?
I explained fully when I answered the question to the one who asked.
#85
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
-->
@ethang5
Why is homosexuality one of them? Why does homosexuality need to be "tolerated"?

Why is Christianity one of them? Why does Christianity need to be "tolerated"?

See how that works, Ethan?

#86
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@ethang5
2. Or can a person be repulsed (by the act, not the person) and not be a bigot at all?
Yes. You can be repulsed and not be a bigot. 

3. Is repulsion at the homosexual act a learned response or is it biological?
It is biological in my opinion, but it can be a little of both when it comes to "repulsion." My family always talked about homosexual acts as disgusting, so i think that kinda made a difference. But never the less, i don't think even if they didn't do that i wouldn't still be repulsed by it. It's disgusting thinking of two men together. Now... watching a trans man that is now a women have sex with a guy isn't repulsive in my opinion which leads to the last point. 

4. If a man is repulsed at the sexual act between two men, but feels attracted at the sexual act between two women, is that bigotry?
No. I naturally like women and everything that has to do with women. Even if a guy is a convincing enough women, even if he/she still has a wee wee, i don't find it disgusting. Well sorta... i can get turned on by watching a tranny, but not enough to have me time while watching trans sex. I just don't find it disgusting if the man looks enough like a women. This is also why i don't think it's learned and more so biological. I like everything that has to do with women and i hate everything that has to do with men, sexually and aesthetics wise. Note... i don't think i would ever hook up with a tranny. In the end of the day, it's still a guy... and the thought of that ultimately turns me off in doing any sexual act. It only has to do with watching it not being repulsive. 




Topic's author
#87
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Outplayz
Thanks for that honest and candid answer. I think your position would be pretty common in the general population.

It would have been interesting if you had also told us what you thought is bigotry. You said, "You can be repulsed and not be a bigot." But when is it bigotry? What would a person do that you would deem him a bigot in this situation?
#88
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@ethang5
A bigot, to me anyways, is someone that is intolerant towards the group as a whole. Therefore, i would be intolerant of lesbians too. But more so, i think it comes down to how this person acts. Yes he/she can be repulsed, but does that also translate to treating homosexuals badly (through actions or words). If the answer is yes, i would call that person a bigot bc they are trying to impose their views as correct. And that's another element. If said person goes around acting as if his/her repulsion should be how everyone feels. Those are the top elements that would turn it into bigotry in my opinion (off the top of my head).  

Thanks for that honest and candid answer. I think your position would be pretty common in the general population.
Thanks... but i wonder how many in the public can handle tranny porn lol



#89
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@ethang5
A bigot, to me anyways, is someone that is intolerant towards the group as a whole. Therefore, i would be intolerant of lesbians too.
I want to expand on this a little. Yes i might not be repulsed by lesbians having sex when i am watching them... but if you think about it, i only watch really hot chicks hooking up. If i were a bigot, i would be intolerant of lesbians i'm not attracted to. So, if you could say that you can only be intolerant of man but not women... i would say bigotry fills in all the blanks... where i would be intolerant of 'ugly' lesbians too. 

Topic's author
#90
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Outplayz
wonder how many in the public can handle tranny porn lol
Not me, that's for sure. But with pop media treating it like its a virtue, the number who can "handle" it will only grow.