This is the thread for talking veganism.
Veganism
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125
I don't think there is anything wrong with killing animals but there is something wrong in thinking that if you completely remove your steak in how they are treated and ultimately killed that you are helping them. So, if that is the case, where does veganism come from?
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@Snoopy
.....'I ate a vegan the other night for dinner and I think they taste as good as a meat eater or vegetarian'.......Hannibal the CannibalThis is the thread for talking veganism.
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@mustardness
Vegan chefs are wizards. Some things I think are just weird and try too hard to be meat, but the food can really taste quite delicious when you are in the mood for something a bit more on the light side. If there aren't a lot of vegetarians, a vegan restaurant really has make decent food to stay in business.
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@Snoopy
my wife was vegan, she does eat eggs and fish now, but the though of killing a mammal is just upsetting to her. Vegans tend to be very low in important vitamins like vitamin D. She is obsessed with diets and dieting which annoys me because she is skinnier than when we married, a bit too skinny imo. Extreme diets can and do work for some people, but not all. There are some who do well and thrive with a vegan or vegetarian diet, same is true with paleo, keto and even carnivore diets. I've seen some very sickly looking vegans.
there's a lot of discussion as to whether humans are designed to be vegans or not etc. My opinion is generally humans were meant to be omnivores generally, though carbs and sugars in the amounts they are available are not good for us. I wouldn't say I follow a keto diet because I don't test my blood and I do cheat. Being that committed and strict is not in my nature or personality. However I have seen a lot of benefits from high fats, low carbs and sugars.
My wife as also reduced carbs and sugars with positive benefits.
I am a vegan 364 out of 365 days of year!
Then on pascha, I eat more meat than someone should eat in a week in a day!
Hah
I don't believe there is anything wrong with eating meat. It is really just part of my discipline.
That means most moralistic vegans find me obnoxious, and the reverse is true as well.
We fast over half the year in Orthodoxy. Most Orthodox are vegan during these times. For me it is a bit more extreme, since I am always vegan. This is one reason I didn't post during lent.
It might be surprising, but I feel healthy, and I enjoy what I eat. I am content.
I have been a consistent vegetarian for 3 years, with periods before that.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I admit I am bad at taking them consistently, but supplements should help with that aort of thing... vitamins that is.
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@Snoopy
As someone who is mostly vegan, the militant vegans should think of other ways to save animal lives. Some of these ways are:
1) To encourage hunting of deer for food. Deer are big animals, they provide more meat then chickens, so it makes sense to kill 1 deer to get the same amount of meat that you would have to kill 100s of chickens to get. Plus, deer die relatively painlessly when shot.
2) To encourage people to eat beef instead of chicken. A cow has more meat, so less of them die for the same amount of meat.
3) To encourage lab grown meat. I think Lab grown meat requires virtually no animal death and with mass production, it becomes cheap.
These solutions can work. Accusing people of torturing chickens for eggs when that is often not the case doesn't work.
Historically the development of lactose tolerance helped provide much-needed Vitamin D to European populations who were reeling from the effects of the Neolithic Revolution (e.g. rickets). And today you have people in sub-Saharan Africa who're given the sustenance they need to survive by way of dairy products derived fresh from a cow or similar livestock, and from eggs that chickens produce on a daily basis. To make a moral statement out of "thou shalt be a strict vegan" is absurd. Human lives are near-infinitely more important.
For the most part it's a choice that affluent peoples make because their food security accords them the luxury of dietary sensibility.
I was a vegetarian for seven years- there’s something in me that has always been a little revolted by meat- particular organs and bones. I don’t cook much meat for myself but I’ve been a chef and baker in many restaurants and When I am a guest I make a habit of accepting what’s offered in spite of my preferences.
From an anthropological point of view meat is very expensive relative to eating plants - we spend something like 50 times as many calories of energy making one calorie of beef as we do one calorie of rice. i think a major cultural shift to much less meat is smart, more sustainable, practically inevitable as we are now maxing out arable land on earth. My neighborhood is downtown & there are a rapidly increasing number of vegan venues opening up. There’s s vegan bakery just down the street from me.
My little brother is opposite: he literally lives almost entirely on meat he’s hunted and killed himself- but we enjoy one another’s cooking and don’t think of our food habits as incompatible, really.
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@Mopac
that's true, but if you are that deficient in important vitamins, what's that say about the diet? :)
look at animals, vegetarian animals have huge or several stomachs compared to the muscled and lean carnivores. as for the size and length of digestive tracts humans are closer to carnivores than vegetarian animals.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
There are just as many ways to eat vegan as there are to eat omnivorous. Not all ways are healthy. If you want to eat healthy as a vegan, it is integral that you are mindful of what you eat.
But I neither eat vegan for health reasons or for ethical reasons. I eat this way for, and I hate to say it lest anyone think this is a requirement in Orthodoxy, religious reasons. To me, it is a religious practice.
And speaking of diet and religion, if you were to follow the prescribed fasts of the church, you would be a vegan fornover half of the year. However, it is not a legalistic thing, which is really what I am wanting to point out. Someone can be an orthodox and not do these fasts. However, it is is accepted that it is better for you if you do.
Little bit of a tangent, I'm not really trying to make this a religious topic or anything. I am just pointing out this is another reason why some might prefer the vegan diet.
In fact, I think Some Jains, Hindus, and Buddhists practice this diet. Also worth noting, the easiest way to eat kosher or Halal is to go vegan!
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@Alec
1) To encourage hunting of deer for food. Deer are big animals, they provide more meat then chickens, so it makes sense to kill 1 deer to get the same amount of meat that you would have to kill 100s of chickens to get. Plus, deer die relatively painlessly when shot.
reasonable as deer have not many natural predators ergo proliferate like rabbits for that reason.
2) To encourage people to eat beef instead of chicken. A cow has more meat, so less of them die for the same amount of meat.
Bad idea and has not any comprehensive consideration of detriment of total beef industry on environment. Were in tear 2020 not 1020.
3) To encourage lab grown meat. I think Lab grown meat requires virtually no animal death and with mass production, it becomes cheap.
Meat is more and more irrelevant and insignificant concern for human health since industrial age.
These solutions can work. Accusing people of torturing chickens for eggs when that is often not the case doesn't work.
Human treatment of chickens is never a bad idea ergo the industry needs to change for many differrent reasons.
I sometimes eat eggs and sometimes fish. I refrain from eating vegans......unless, I get hungry enough and there are not good alternatives within reach. Even seen the movie "Alive" of soccer players who ate their teamates when plane crashed in mountains of Peru.
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@mustardness
reasonable as deer have not many natural predators ergo proliferate like rabbits for that reason.
They can have a new predator; humans.
Bad idea and has not any comprehensive consideration of detriment of total beef industry on environment. Were in tear 2020 not 1020.
If you want to fix the environment, get solar panels. Until you get those, it's kindof hypocritical. Besides, I thought you wanted to save animal lives. Eating meat is not archaic.
Meat is more and more irrelevant and insignificant concern for human health since industrial age.
It's possible to survive on a vegan diet. However, some people like meat for the taste. They should be allowed to eat lab grown meat if they want once it becomes economically feasible.
Human treatment of chickens is never a bad idea ergo the industry needs to change for many differrent reasons.
Many farmers treat their chickens well. It varies from farm to farm.
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@Alec
They can have a new predator; humans.
That is not new.
If you want to fix the environment, get solar panels. Until you get those, it's kindof hypocritical. Besides, I thought you wanted to save animal lives. Eating meat is not archaic.
You think it is hypocritical for some one to speak truth. Your confused person and you really know very little about me and how I live. Thank goodness for that.
It's possible to survive on a vegan diet. However, some people like meat for the taste. They should be allowed to eat lab grown meat if they want once it becomes economically feasible.
And no where have I ever suggested otherwise. We can get all vitamins and minerals we need from sources other than meat and I could care less if any people want to raise any animals for their selves and their personal taste preferences.
I do oppose the current beef industry operations that are singicantly detrimental to the ecological environment that sustains us.
I think your a confused person.
Many farmers treat their chickens well. It varies from farm to farm.
Humane treatment of chickens are any animals is always the more moral choice.
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@Alec
Just want to add more.
If you want to fix the environment, get solar panels.
Me getting solar panels doesn't stop climate change or environmental problems at a large scale. Even if I decide to get solar panels many other people are not using renewable more environmentally friendly power so basically my approach does not matter on a large scale. The government producing more renewable energy is more help to the country then a person who isn't in the government could ever could. It is like saying to ants if you want to live don't get stepped on.
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@Alec
If you want to fix the environment, get solar panels. Until you get those, it's kindof hypocritical. Besides, I thought you wanted to save animal lives. Eating meat is not archaic
A broad problem in your contention, namely that someone should invest in something in common abstract principle, is that people might advocate for something that isn't personally practical under the current circumstances, or only specifically address something which is personally sensible in their own view.
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@TheRealNihilist
Me getting solar panels doesn't stop climate change or environmental problems at a large scale.
Neither does preaching for alternative energy. My house actually has solar panels. It works pretty well; $100 gets saved every month. I'm not telling other people to get panels though.
Even if I decide to get solar panels many other people are not using renewable more environmentally friendly power so basically my approach does not matter on a large scale.
It works on a small scale, and it means that you wouldn't be a hypocrite.
The government producing more renewable energy is more help to the country then a person who isn't in the government could ever could.
Getting this whole nation to go solar costs trillions of dollars when factoring in the panels, the batteries, and the transport of the electricity. Given that climate change will only cost humans about $1 trillion, I would rather wait until the technology for solar power gets better for humans to use something like solar.
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@Snoopy
is that people might advocate for something that isn't personally practical under the current circumstances, or only specifically address something which is personally sensible in their own view.
If going solar is unfeasible for preachers of solar panels, it's probably unfeasible for many other people too. It's best to let those that want to go solar to go solar and to leave everyone else alone.
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@Alec
That seems reasonable to me. As I recall though, you introduced the subject of solar power this time, when others are talking about meat, cows, mammals, and other animals. I would appreciate keeping to the topic of veganism, if you can tie things in with that.
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@Snoopy
Vegan advocates claim that veganism is good for the environment and then I brought up a double standard charge.
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@Alec
I don't believe it either. Vegans are merciless towards to the plant kingdom, and fungi are the scum between their toes.
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@Snoopy
Vegans are merciless towards to the plant kingdom
So are omnivores.
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@Alec
Neither does preaching for alternative energy. My house actually has solar panels. It works pretty well; $100 gets saved every month. I'm not telling other people to get panels though.
Yes it does. In order to enact change it must first be brought about. Do you even know what you saying?
In other context you are basically I am not racist because I have a black friend.
It works on a small scale, and it means that you wouldn't be a hypocrite.
Small scale doesn't matter when the large scale as in the majority use fossil fuels as their energy source.
How does that not make me a hypocrite? I don't understand how I am a hypocrite if I did the other either.
Getting this whole nation to go solar costs trillions of dollars when factoring in the panels, the batteries, and the transport of the electricity. Given that climate change will only cost humans about $1 trillion, I would rather wait until the technology for solar power gets better for humans to use something like solar.
Getting blacks out of slave owners will costs several of dollars. Given that slavery will only cost human property to people that aren't black. I would rather wait until slavery has a better alternative to do better. That would be your argument if you were consistent.
Climate change is a problem and the American government can in a way switch to better sources of energy than fossil fuels. This can be switching to nuclear energy until renewable is less costly. Fossil fuels is worse than nuclear power.
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@Alec
So are omnivores.
If you get your meat in a natural way, like hunting, or maybe locally raising animals, than you don't have to depend so much on the displacement of native habitat, which is an issue of serious consideration in our time with human populations reaching unprecedented levels.
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@Snoopy
Humans and animals have ability to feel pain. If we cared about the well-being of lets say our pets then we should also care about other animals that do feel pain. If that someone opposes this argument then that person would pretty much be okay with murder because the person didn't care about them.when others are talking about meat, cows, mammals, and other animals. I would appreciate keeping to the topic of veganism, if you can tie things in with that.
Vegans are merciless towards to the plant kingdom, and fungi are the scum between their toes.
Plants don't feel pain. Animals pain. Are you for human torture? If not why are you for animal torture?
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@TheRealNihilist
I'm not talking about animal torture thus far. I have mentioned that I take no issue with killing animals.
I'm not talking about animal torture.
Are you going to answer the question or do you realise how bad your position is?
Plants don't feel pain. Animals pain. Are you for human torture? If not why are you for animal torture?
I have mentioned that I take no issue with killing animals.
So you are for animal violence?
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@TheRealNihilist
See Post #26
I have mentioned that I take no issue with killing animals.So you are for animal violence?
I don't internalize it, but yeah. I have no problem with it.