Moderation and Tied Votes

Author: bsh1

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Aloha!

Moderation's policy on tied votes (specifically, votes which award no points) has recently been that they are not moderatable. Let me explain briefly why that policy was implemented. Beginning of the argument, sources, spelling, and conduct clauses of the voting policy is the following phrase: "in order to award conduct points." I interpreted this text to mean that a vote must actually award points in order to be subject to these clauses. Put differently, "in order to award points" is not the same as "in order to award no points." I was not particularly pleased with the result of this reading of the voting policy, as it essentially allowed junk votes to be cast, possibly in order to inflate the voter's site statistics.

Recently, however, thanks both to Ramshutu and Virtuoso, my view on what the voting policy allows moderation to do with regard to tied votes has changed. There are two relevant portions of the voting policy and COC which are important in this new reading. First, the voting policy defines a "vote bomb" as "a vote cast without regard for the content of the debate." This implies that the voter must have at least examined the debate and its content prior to voting, and must root their vote in a consideration of that content. Second, the COC prohibits spam content, where "spam" refers to "any content which is nonsensical or excessively repetitive." Voters who cast the same tied vote with highly similar RFDs over and over again are spamming.

Therefore, there will be a change to moderation's approach to voting moderation with regard to tied votes. These changes will impact any votes cast on or after of 4:00pm, EST, today. This post is serving as a public notice of those changes in policy. This thread will be locked in 48 hours.

The first policy change is that voters must offer an explanation (which is related to the content of the debate) of why they chose to award no points. Simply saying "my opinion wasn't changed" or "I wasn't able to form an opinion" or "pink elephants smoke meth" will no longer be acceptable RFDs on tied debates. Voters need not meet the standard of sufficiency for awarding argument points, but they must clearly explain why, based on what transpired in the debate, they chose not to award points. The second change is that casting more than 5 tied (no points awarded) votes a day will be considered spam, and will result in all tied (no points awarded) votes in excess of the 5-vote limit being deleted.

I intend to submit these policies to a MEEP for further consideration and development. The MEEP will be held sometime in June or early July. My hope is that a clearer standard for tied votes can be developed, and that the spam cap can possibly be repealed or limited in scope. Until then, these stopgap measures, based on a careful consideration of the site's COC and voting policy, will be implemented as described. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. Thank you.

-Bsh1, Chief Moderator
dave2242
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@bsh1
i honestly do not get the point of tie votes as they are mechanically equivalent as not voting at all. (idk where to put this but here)
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@dave2242
i include them in forfeit debates because I’m a vote whore.

I have done it for non forfeit debates in cases where there is a legit tie. I’ve normally written a long RfD as a result, and include for the purposes of feedback and because also I am a vote whore.
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@Ramshutu
i can see those reasons. but for example one of the votes on https://www.debateart.com/debates/741 are just saying that its to long and one is just RM saying kiss his ass. I do not see either as valid votes
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@dave2242
yeah - this is exactly why I made the request to re-examine the policy.
bsh1
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@dave2242
Agreed. I was planning on changing the policy at some point, because it allowed terrible votes to stand. The question wasn't so much if the policy would change, but more so how and when.
TheRealNihilist
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@bsh1
If I draw why would it reduce my win/loss ratio? 
I didn't lose or win so I don't see how that is the case. Can you do something about that if it is a win/draw/loss ratio? 
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Don’t be racist: All kinds of elephants smoke meth sometimes
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@TheRealNihilist
The leaderboard ratio is a win ratio. Not a win/loss ratio. If it’s not a win, it’s not included in that ratio as a win.
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@Ramshutu

I thought a higher-up would know this.


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@David
Can you change the way it works?

So basically I want it to register wins and losses for the percentage not the ties.

Do you have a problem with changing that? 
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@TheRealNihilist
That is beyond the scope of my abilities. This is something you will have to ask Mike. 
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@TheRealNihilist
Tejeretics:

debates : 3. Won: 2.

win percentage is 66.67% correct 

dustyridee: 

debatea: 2. Won 1. Win percentage is 50% correct


The clue is that the column title and the title of the ratio in profiles is win percentage. Oddly, this strongly implies that the number is the percentage of debates won.

This is not the same as the number of debates you didn’t lose, or a win/loss percentage.

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@Ramshutu
I rather have it show the win/loss percentage. Guess I'll ask the Admin. 
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@David
Thanks. 
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@TheRealNihilist
No problem. 
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Voters need not meet the standard of sufficiency for awarding argument points, but they must clearly explain why, based on what transpired in the debate, they chose not to award points.
I wholly agree with this change. Doubly so because spammers (intentionally or accidentally) are making debates in need of votes harder to find. Heck on my most recent debate the evidence I used was debates with zero votes.

Bare in mind, I'm someone who has long defended null votes (any vote which cancels itself out), but people going debate to debate to spam profanity... Intellectual dead weight.
bsh1
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@TheRealNihilist
It's not about win/loss ratio. It's about "site statistics," which may include such things as earning badges or accumulating large numbers of votes in order to inflate one's appearance of involvement and significance.
bsh1
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@oromagi
lol
TheRealNihilist
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@bsh1
It's not about win/loss ratio. It's about "site statistics," which may include such things as earning badges or accumulating large numbers of votes in order to inflate one's appearance of involvement and significance.
What is the significance in a tie if not diminishing the wins and losses a person has? If a tie didn't happen the win percentage if the person has received no losses and won 1 debate would be 100%. Now that there is a tie like with dustryder his percentage says 50%. Even though he hasn't lost a single debate. 

bsh1
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@TheRealNihilist
Are you talking about ties as the outcome of the debate, or tied votes?
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@bsh1
Are you talking about ties as the outcome of the debate, or tied votes?
Not tied votes. Tied debates. Tied votes if there are votes on the debate are the cause of it but my problem is specifically with the percentage having debate ties factor as their debate percentage. 

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@TheRealNihilist
Ah. Well, that's tangential to the thread. I can respond more fully later to that topic.
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@bsh1
Ah. Well, that's tangential to the thread. I can respond more fully later to that topic.
Okay I have a problem with tied votes then. If both sides are using the same logic and are on opposing sides of the question they both can't be right. This should reflect in the votes since at the end if both still think they are right using the same logic and being on the opposing sides of the question one is being logically inconsistent. 

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I believe that debates rarely tie. However, I do believe it is possible for debates to be tied, and usually that occurs, as the adage goes, when the debaters are like two ships passing in the night.
TheRealNihilist
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@bsh1
I believe that debates rarely tie. However, I do believe it is possible for debates to be tied, and usually that occurs, as the adage goes, when the debaters are like two ships passing in the night.
How does this answer what I say?

My claims A occurs which is bad.
You say this rarely happens. 
You are not arguing against my specific claim you are just saying it isn't important.

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@TheRealNihilist
Your claim was:

If both sides are using the same logic and are on opposing sides of the question they both can't be right. This should reflect in the votes since at the end if both still think they are right using the same logic and being on the opposing sides of the question one is being logically inconsistent.
I took this to mean that it is impossible to legitimately cast a tie vote, as "both [debaters] can't be right," and this "should reflect in the votes." If that is not what you mean, please clarify.

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@bsh1
I took this to mean that it is impossible to legitimately cast a tie vote, as "both [debaters] can't be right," and this "should reflect in the votes." If that is not what you mean, please clarify.
Yes it is. 
I believe that debates rarely tie.
This is basically me saying I believe you rarely actually give a damn about what I am saying. This does not in anyway help me understand your argument against since all you say it rarely happens. 
However, I do believe it is possible for debates to be tied, and usually that occurs,
You basically agree with me and don't really offer something to counter here. 
as the adage goes, when the debaters are like two ships passing in the night.
In what way does this address what I said? I have to understand the context of your literary technique and even then I still don't think it actually addresses what I said. 
bsh1
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@TheRealNihilist
This does not in anyway help me understand your argument against since all you say it rarely happens. 
The adage is the explanation that should help you understand. Since you are not familiar with the adage, I am happy to explain.

Imagine two ships of the line from enemy fleets sailing by each other in the night. Neither fires at the other because, in the dark, they do not know the other is there. It's a reasonably common analogy.

Imagine then two debaters who each present a case but then fail to rebut the case of their opponent, instead preferring to talk only about their own points. In such a situation, the debaters are like two ships passing in the night.

Without clash, it is arguably impossible for the judge to render a verdict, because no one has given me a reason to prefer (or not prefer) any specific case. The only way to render a verdict is to intervene, and that is something many judges like myself strongly object to doing, and therefore will not do.

This is basically me saying I believe you rarely actually give a damn about what I am saying.
That is neither fair nor accurate. I clearly addressed your comment; that you didn't get my analogy is not evidence that I don't "give a damn" about what you're saying. If I didn't care, I wouldn't respond.
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@bsh1
Without clash, it is arguably impossible for the judge to render a verdict, because no one has given me a reason to prefer (or not prefer) any specific case. The only way to render a verdict is to intervene, and that is something many judges like myself strongly object to doing, and therefore will not do.
Then don't have that count as a debate then. If this becomes so egregious then you can consider them both losing 1 debate for doing so. If no attempt was made to even gauge with the other's argument why should it count as a debate?