Controversial Census question.

Author: Greyparrot

Posts

Total: 72
Topic's author
#1
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Are you a US Citizen?

A controversial question for some as it might not count all the illegal aliens present in a State. A census number allocates funds as well as providing accurate numbers of representatives. I would like to bring up 2 counterpoints.

1) We should NOT be funding illegal aliens with any sort of welfare.

2) Congress does NOT represent people that cannot vote for them. If that were true, every boy would have endless candy and every girl would own a pony, and every felon would have free prostitutes.


#2
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
I think there could be a pretty simple solution to this.  Rather than the census perhaps there could be a way to make it mandatory that only citizens receive tax payer funded entitlements, and use an e-verify type system and a mandatory employer e-verify.  then those actual numbers could be submitted for these funds.
actual tax filings could probably be used as well.  Anyway this would give an accurate number of actual citizens.
#3
dustryder
dustryder's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 1,080
3
2
4
dustryder's avatar
dustryder
3
2
4
This would unfairly punish citizen though, right? If you allocate less resources to a state because of the presence of illegal immigrants and yet those illegal immigrant take part in those provided resources regardless, there are less resources available for everyone including citizens overall
#4
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@dustryder
either way the resources will be less because of illegals right?  I mean if more illegals enter, more taxes are taken/needed.  Given a finite amount of resources, that means less for actual citizens.
this would also reduce the reason/incentive for illegals to enter, well, illegally.  And all levels of law enforcement would be forced to deport illegals and prevent them from entering in the first place.
Imagine if you will for a moment I wave my magic wand and poof, every illegal is gone.  Now the money they are using is rather substantial and no longer being used by them.  This could be relocated or refunded to the tax payer.  Either way it would no longer be used/wasted on criminal aliens who quite frankly don't deserve it when citizens, veterans etc don't have what they need.

Topic's author
#5
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
maga. America first.

This question was actually used on the long form census until it was removed in 2010 by Obama.

Obama tried to fundamentally reshape the Country.
#6
Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
either way the resources will be less because of illegals right?  I mean if more illegals enter, more taxes are taken/needed.  Given a finite amount of resources, that means less for actual citizens.
this would also reduce the reason/incentive for illegals to enter, well, illegally.  And all levels of law enforcement would be forced to deport illegals and prevent them from entering in the first place.
Imagine if you will for a moment I wave my magic wand and poof, every illegal is gone.  Now the money they are using is rather substantial and no longer being used by them.  This could be relocated or refunded to the tax payer.  Either way it would no longer be used/wasted on criminal aliens who quite frankly don't deserve it when citizens, veterans etc don't have what they need.


There is an underlying motivation in "protecting" illegal aliens, either to exploit labor, or to look the other way of criminal interests.   I doubt the decent people (vast majority) are taking more then they pitch in. 
Topic's author
#7
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Snoopy
I heard a report that Mexican Coyotes working for the cartels took in nearly an estimated 20 billion dollars last year in human trafficking fees. It costs around 10,000 per person. That's some serious protection money. Coyotes also get paid by the cartels to distract border patrol with surges of illegal migrants so that the drugs can flow through the unprotected areas.

I wonder how much of that money gets funneled through Democratic superpacs?
#8
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
George Orwell had you pegged.
#9
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@disgusted
“Don't give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses for nothing here is free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Keep these, the homeless, tempest-tossed from me,
I doused my lamp and closed the golden door!”
Topic's author
#10
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@keithprosser
Too bad we can't stuff illegal aliens inside a copper statue.

#11
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
in a French statue no less,  funny the sanctuary states and cities are turning them away........
good thing poetry isn't law, regardless it doesn't say come in illegally does it.
Topic's author
#12
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
I think France tried to turn the USA into them with their Trojan statue.

“There is no such thing as French culture. There is culture in France, and it is diverse. It is not French culture.”—Emmanuel Macron

#13
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
@pollywannacracker
Their irrational hatred of everything other is such a sad indictment of their ability to think.
#14
Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot
It's called a free country.   We can say that without detracting from the vile abuse people use the statue of liberty for.
Topic's author
#15
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Snoopy
Freedom from government tyranny is a country that only exists in history books.

We wouldn't even be discussing this if a tyrannical government was not forcing wealth out of the hands of Americans and placing into the hands of non-Americans.
#16
Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot
I was trying to refer to the "there is no French culture" reference. It may arise from human decency, as opposed to culture. The statue of liberty by the way, according to my recollection, was accounted for voluntarily by the French people. Americans built the pedestal.
#17
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
The U.S. Census Bureau has one job.

Count every human being.

This directive comes directly from the U.S. Constitution.

It is irrelevant whether or not they are citizens.

Even prisoners and ex-cons who have been stripped of the right to vote are included in voting districts.

Illegal immigrant workers pay social security tax which they can never collect.

This is a net benefit to those who either collect social security now or expect to collect social security in the future.

Illegal immigrant workers suppress consumer prices.

This is a net benefit to everyone who buys things.

CIS estimated that welfare payments to illegal immigrant households averaged $1,040 per household in 2001, mainly Medicaid “on behalf of their U.S.-born children.” [LINK]

Didn't the Jesus say something about helping the needy?
Topic's author
#18
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Jesus said nothing about supporting a tyrannical government that strips the wealth from Americans and hands it over to Non-Americans.
#19
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
We wouldn't even be discussing this if a tyrannical government was not forcing wealth out of the hands of Americans and placing into the hands of non-Americans.
Even conservative pundits point out that American Citizens who make under $88,000.00 a year are not covering their own lifetime benefits when they pay their taxes. [LINK]

So unless your hands are taking home over $88,000.00 a year, the government is not taking money out of them.
#20
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL

so it's they aren't suppose to receive rather than can never.

"Illegal immigrants cannot legally obtain Social Security numbers
if an illegal immigrant has a Social Security number, fraud has been committed.
“My understanding is that some illegal immigrants legitimately have an ITIN,” Bagner said. “An ITIN is an individual tax identification number. It is for foreigners who have income from the U.S. that is not subject to Social Security tax but is subject to income tax.”"



Topic's author
#21
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Jesus said nothing about supporting a tyrannical government that strips the wealth from Americans and hands it over to Non-Americans.
I don't really care if Americans can't pay back government mandated welfare. If we are going to add to the 22 trillion national debt, at least we can do it helping Americans first.
Jesus said nothing about supporting a tyrannical government that strips the wealth from Americans and hands it over to Non-Americans.
Destroying the country to make it equal with the rest of the world is insane.
#22
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Jesus said nothing about supporting a tyrannical government that strips the wealth from Americans and hands it over to Non-Americans.
That's technically true.  Do you imagine that Jesus advocated "only be kind to your own people"?
#23
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
With zero statistics, “the full extent of benefit fraud is unknown.” means basically nobody knows if it is "serious" or not.

The fact remains that more illegal workers pay into social security than take benefits.
Topic's author
#24
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Illegals should be taking zero benefits. Every remittance sent to Mexico and other shithole countries should be confiscated and used to build the wall until the illegals deport themselves. Coyotes should be eradicated instead of being a 20 billion dollar a year industry in trafficking humans to get free healthcare and free education in the USA as an illegal invader. The USA does not need to subsidize Mexican cartel coyotes.
#25
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
The fact remains that more illegal workers pay into social security than take benefits.
if that is true wouldn't that mean there's a huge number of illegals with fake or stolen s.s. #'s?  that sounds like a serious problem if that's the case.
you can't legally get a s.s. # if you are an illegal
if you don't have a s.s. # you can't legally work and they can't take s.s. taxes out
that is how I understand it works, is that correct?

Topic's author
#26
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
That's correct. But the social security fees illegals pay on a benefit they can't collect on by using fake SSN numbers does not come anywhere close to compensating for the free education free food and free healthcare, with whatever extra benefits a sanctuary state of city may confer. America first. 22 trillion dollars in debt we don't need to add the debt from shithole countries too. Americans can do that just fine on their own.
#27
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
yeah doesn't add up
the ones with stolen or fake s.s.#s are working low paying jobs I would think, so whatever they maybe paying should be very small
How many of these illegals would have to have stolen or fake numbers to actually offset what tax payer funded services they use?  Probably close to 100% I would think.  If the argument is they are a net benefit then we have a serious problem with fake/stolen s.s.#s
#28
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Illegals should be taking zero benefits. Every remittance sent to Mexico and other shithole countries should be confiscated and used to build the wall until the illegals deport themselves. Coyotes should be eradicated instead of being a 20 billion dollar a year industry in trafficking humans to get free healthcare and free education in the USA as an illegal invader. The USA does not need to subsidize Mexican cartel coyotes.
Land of the free indeed.

Simply boycott every product you normally buy that employs immigrant labor.

Free market capitalism baby!!
Topic's author
#29
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Yeah, i'll be just fine with my inflated food prices. Not worth the invasion from shithole countries. It's a scam.
#30
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
if that is true wouldn't that mean there's a huge number of illegals with fake or stolen s.s. #'s?  that sounds like a serious problem if that's the case.
you can't legally get a s.s. # if you are an illegal
if you don't have a s.s. # you can't legally work and they can't take s.s. taxes out
that is how I understand it works, is that correct?
I've worked several places and personally observed employers accepting obviously fake social security numbers.

I would have imagined that when they submit their paperwork, the IRS or somebody would cross-check the numbers to see if they are already in use or not, but apparently they don't.

The social security card that I saw was a photocopy with the numbers blanked out and hand-written in pen.

Trump himself has hired undocumented workers.  Many wealthy Republicans (and of course Democrats) hire undocumented live-in domestic help.

When you start talking about money and how much they supposedly cost taxpayers, I find that pretty amusing.

If we tossed out every single one of them tomorrow, about half of all restaurants and construction companies and hotels would go out of business overnight and prices would skyrocket.