Free Will & The Christian - Get Out.

Author: Stephen

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#31
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@disgusted
Oh look you just worked out why [ SOME] Muslims ignore the obscene passages in the Quran. 
But then they are not following the direct instructions of their god and prophet are they you buffoon?
#32
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@Stephen
Just like you and the other christians don't follow the direct instructions from the god invented in your holy book.
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#33
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@disgusted
Just like you and the other christians don't follow the direct instructions from the god invented in your holy book.
I don't think anyone is arguing that point here, you buffoon. I was christened  but I have no intention of "turning the other cheek" as the Christ instructs.  I am not a practicing Christian in any sense of the word as are many in my situation.

And the same goes with muslims, they don't a ALL go out and rape , maim, murder and enslave just because because their god and prophet instructs them to do so to make the whole world islamic. How many times do I have to tell you that. Away now, your  stinking piss soaked sandpit awaits .

#34
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@Stephen
You say we ignore the old testament because you don't know what it is used for. You say Paul made it ok to ignore Mosaic law because you are ignorant of the fact that the first council of Jerusalem simply confirmed that the Noahide law was sufficient for gentiles. This council was not decided by Paul, but James the just.

You also have the issue of not recognizing that Christianity outside The Orthodox Church has not the authority to define Christianity. There is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. 


Do Calvinists eat their steak bloody?


#35
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@Stephen
Your hypocrisy is astounding. Muslims are all murderers because the book tells them to be, all christians are not murderers even though their book tells them to be. Your capacity for independent thought is thus relegated to non existent.
#36
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@disgusted
Our "book" does not tell us to be murderers, and our religion is not about following a "book" to begin with. 

Orthodox Christianity is very much against coercion, and very much for the enduring of persecution rather than the seeking of revenge.

We hold free will with the utmost sanctity because it is a gift that God gave us when he made us in his own image. 

The Latin Papalists and protestants have their holy wars and persecutions, but these churches are heretical and thus are not truly Christian.


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#37
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Muslims are all murderers because the book tells them to be,

I didn't say that, you did, You also say in your hate filled speech  of a rant  that " ALL muslims have mental issues and are stupid" because they believe in  their god Allah  and their prophet muhammad" and called Islam "stupid"  I didn't say any of that either you did.  You may find this interesting , I know I did yesterday.http://www.report-it.org.uk/your_police_force


 even though their book tells them to be.

No it doesn't . It says turn the other cheek. You silly little man. 


#38
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@Stephen
@disgusted
matthew 10:34  “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[


#39
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@keithprosser
Mercy on those in the Muslim world who confess to their parents they have found Christ.

#40
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@Mopac
Not likely to happen much in the present climate.  God would have a lot more influence if only he existed!
#41
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@keithprosser
If God didn't exist, it wouldn't be possible for you to exist.

And truly, all things were created by and through God's Word, and His Spirit that fills all things. 

If The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist, there is no reality. To say that God doesn't exist is self defeating. The God we know to be The Truth is The Eternally Existing One. You deny this God, and that is a very foolish thing to do. You would be better off confessing The Truth.






#42
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@Mopac
You don't change, Mopac.

I'm not in the mood to re-run threads already done to death.
#43
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@keithprosser
The Truth doesn't change simply because you find it inconvenient.
#44
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@Mopac
The truth doesn't change just because you believe in fairy tales.
#45
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@disgusted
My religion is designed specifically so that people like you are closed off from it. 

The benefits of a mystery religion is that we get to laugh at people like you who think you are mocking one thing while you are really admitting something else.



#46
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@Mopac
If you live in a fairy tale then what you laugh at is the mirror and it's the nervous laughter of fear.
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#47
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@keithprosser
matthew 10:34  “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[
You have done this before haven't you prosser?  Just throwing a verse out without a comment or a explanation as to why you believe it to be  relevant. 

 You are good at this aren't you prosser and believe that you are being so fkn clever, YOUR NOT, you are making yourself look "backward" . The ploy, your oft used ploy, is to  post things for others to explain to you because you don't  know or understand what is actually being spoken.
And end up making yourself look absolutely ridiculous. As you did a few times with Luke 19:27 by quoting single part of a 17 part story. You thought you were being clever then didn't you? Until it was pointed out  to you - by me - that this was only a  part of a complete a parable spoken by the christ and concerned god's judgment that starts at verse 11 and finishes at 27, the only part you posted.  

I can see where you get your sly and devious attempts to discredit the the words spoken by the Christ. Our world leaders do similar when attempting to convince people in the West that  Islam is a religion of peace. Yes, they ALL only ever repeat  the same and one single verse from the whole of the quran>

Here it is, go make yourself feel real good about islam keith.

 5:32 "whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind".
 OOOOOOah, that really does sound fluffy doesn't it keith? But if you wish to keep that feel good feeling do not read the very next verse.  That will be the verse our world leaders always seem to forget to mention.

Quran 5:33 – unless, those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption/mischief is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cutoff from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for thema disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.



So are you not going to explain to us all this New Testament verse you have posted? Or are you simply stirring the pot.



#48
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@Stephen
I can see where you get your sly and devious attempts to discredit the the words spoken by the Christ.
I can see you are not a Christianophobe anyway!

I quoted Matthew because while Jesus did say 'turn the other cheek', he said other things too!
 
I think we don't need any more on-going threads about Islam.  Hardly anybody else seems interested.


 



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#49
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@keithprosser
I quoted Matthew because while Jesus did say 'turn the other cheek', he said other things too!

He did say  many things. But what he didn't say was go out into the world and kill anyone who refuses to believe in him or his disciples or refuses become Christian. Unless you are going to show us all where he does actually say such things.

because while Jesus did say 'turn the other cheek', he said other things too!

matthew 10:34  “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ 



Explain to us all this New Testament verse you have posted?
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@Stephen
But what he didn't say was go out into the world and kill anyone who refuses to believe in him
He didn't say not to either.


#51
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@Stephen
It is a major issue when it is said that we were  perfect yet defied our father and in so doing caused death to come to all humans being forever.
If we pretend to believe in god then God could have created Adam and Eve to robotically obey commands given to them.  Then God could have programmed them to avoid the tree of knowlege and they would have avoided it, like the good automatons they were.

But in that case Adam and Eve would not be anything like us.  If you tell a robot to do something, they do it.  Tell a person to do something and they might or might not do it.  'Wet paint' signs and 'vote remain' come to mind.  

Why God created people with free will and not as mindless autonomons is a question above my pay grade!
#52
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@keithprosser
If we pretend to believe in god then God could have created Adam and Eve to robotically obey commands given to them.  Then God could have programmed them to avoid the tree of knowlege and they would have avoided it, like the good automatons they were.
Do you think these people can realise how wrong they are?
My stance is that they have an emotional connection to it because it can't be logically the case that you are allowed what to do but someone already knows what you are going to do. This emotional connection can be seeing things and not seeing a doctor for medication or believing it from being indoctrinated into the Religion so you would have to understand how they were indoctrinated in order to make an argument tailored against it so that they understand how bad their position is.
What is your take on my stance? 
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#53
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@keithprosser
But what he didn't say was go out into the world and kill anyone who refuses to believe in him
He didn't say not to either.
 
Silly and pointless shot. But if you are going to rely on, as evidence what people DIDN'T say, then I will remember that for any future conversation. That said, You are correct he didn't tell anyone to not go out into the world and kill anyone who refuses to believe in him. So they must have done it of their own free will. The very point of this thread.


That Adam and Eve had the same power to choose as we have is no more a major issue than that they could walk as we do.
. It is a major issue when it is said that we were  perfect yet defied our father and in so doing caused death to come to all humans being forever.

Why God created people with free will and not as mindless autonomons is a question above my pay grade!
Yes I know. This why I am relying on Christians to explain the origins of "free will" and not an atheist such as yourself.


#54
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@Stephen
ok, i'm not a Christian, but after reviewing the text i can't see any reason given why god created mankind at all.   Or indeed any reason for creating anything.   God just does it for his own inscrutable reasons!

If its a version of the longer Babylonian creation myth then mankind was created to serve as labourers in the gods' garden, but Adam doesn't seem to have any work to do until after his fall.   Perhaps being idle in a paradise was depicted to emphasise how much disobedience to god can cost.

After all,  the story is partly about the importance of obedience to God.   YHWH of the OT did not want love... He demanded sacrifices and obedience - and got angry if they were not forthcoming.  


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#55
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@keithprosser
ok, i'm not a Christian, but after reviewing the text i can't see any reason given why god created mankind at all.  

Yes I have posed this very question on this forum to Christians many times , so you are asking nothing new.

Or indeed any reason for creating anything.  

yes, I have posed that one  as well on many occasions. Find  and asks your own questions, try to be original.


God just does it for his own inscrutable reasons!

I don't know, Is that what you think? But the thread is about "free will" and not why god created anything at all.

If its a version of the longer Babylonian creation myth then mankind was created to serve as labourers in the gods' garden
Nearly right. I think it was in mines.

but Adam doesn't seem to have any work to do until after his fall.  


Then you haven't read the story. Specifically states that god created the adam to till the land and before the fall.


Perhaps being idle in a paradise was depicted to emphasise how much disobedience to god can cost.

My favorite song of all time that, ♪, ♩ busy doing nothing, ♪, ♩ but my bonsai trees do keep me too busy at times in my twilight years. I think I should turn to faith and look forward to being totally happy in the hereafter doing absolutely nothing .. at all... for ever.

After all,  the story is partly about the importance of obedience to God.  

Yes well , it's the "free will" but that interests me, considering it is not even mentioned in the bible or the Babylonian epic.


YHWH of the OT did not want love... He demanded sacrifices and obedience - and got angry if they were not forthcoming.  

Which makes it more interesting as to why he would even dream of giving his creation "free will". 

#56
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@keithprosser
But what he didn't say was go out into the world and kill anyone who refuses to believe in him
He didn't say not to either.

Catharism is a heresy.

Besides that, The Church(The Orthodox Church) does not believe or condone things like persecuting those who aren't Christian. Neither do we wage "holy wars" or "crusades".

We do respect governing authorities however, and sometimes that necessitates getting sent to war. We do pray for the armed forces every liturgy, and there is a process for reintegration for those who come back from war.



#57
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@keithprosser
The God of The Old Testament is the same God of The New, a God you do not know. You have not the spirit to guide you through scriptures that are not your own to interpret.

If you reject God, who certainly did create everything and out of love gave us the freedom to make that choice, you are choosing hell. Embracing delusion over The Truth leads to torment. Whether you think this is right is irrelevant, because this is reality. You can't reject reality and substitute it in your mind with what you wish it would be instead and not expect to have cognitive dissonance.

The Truth is God. Choose to abide in The Truth. It is better for you.

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@TheRealNihilist
While Christianity in the west, in particular many protestant churches, are very much emotional in their character, Orthodox Christianity(real Christianity) looks down on emotionalism and instead sees disspassion as a state to strive for.

It is no strange thing for the pre-eternal God, who is not circumvented by time, to see everything that happens in time before it happens. It is no strange thing that God can know what it is that we have freely chosen without having dictated what we chose.


It is God's will that we can choose to embrace Him or reject Him. And it is better for us to accept Him, because to reject The Truth is to choose death over life. And as God has conquered death by death in the crucifixion and resurrection, to choose death is to die eternally.

There is no true separation from God, who is omnipresent.


#59
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@Mopac
looks down on emotionalism and instead sees disspassion as a state to strive for.
Tell me an instance of this that is relevant to someone who isn't a Christian. Do you have evidence of Christianity being true?
It is no strange thing that God can know what it is that we have freely chosen without having dictated what we chose.
Don't see how this isn't dispassionate or if it is. I would consider it fallacious so bad rationale. How can God create free will while also knowing the choices you are going to make?
It is God's will that we can choose to embrace Him or reject Him.
So it isn't about my will it is about God's will okay. Guess I can take this that you don't think we have free will. 
because to reject The Truth is to choose death over life. 
Evidence?
And as God has conquered death by death in the crucifixion and resurrection, to choose death is to die eternally.
No substance whatsoever. Can you make sure it is relevant to what you are saying and try to speak to a person who doesn't digest the Bible on a regular basis okay?
There is no true separation from God, who is omnipresent.
Evidence? 
#60
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@Stephen
Which makes it more interesting as to why he would even dream of giving his creation "free will". 
To that I only know the atheists' answer:  The writer of Genesis, not God, gave Adam and Eve free will so they could be disobedient.. 

If its a version of the longer Babylonian creation myth then mankind was created to serve as labourers in the gods' garden
Nearly right. I think it was in mines.

but Adam doesn't seem to have any work to do until after his fall.  
Then you haven't read the story. Specifically states that god created the adam to till the land and before the fall.

Oops - I only read Ch1 - I missed    2:15 "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it"

It appears  we weren't specifcally miners or farmers in the enuma elish - just general labourers.
tablet 6 line 7   I will create Lullû—man
8   On whom the toil of the gods will be laid that they may rest.