rejects the overwhelming majority of god stories.
Why is that?
The overwhelming majority of godists.....
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@vagabond
One might respond with the observation that the overwhelming majority of scientists reject the overwhelming majority of proposed theories.
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@Stronn
Hypotheses not theories. No serious scientist rejects the germ theory of medicine for example.
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@secularmerlin
Yes, hypothesis would be more accurate. I was, however, careful to say "proposed."
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@Stronn
I just find that if I am firm in the difference between the two it is harder to muddy the waters, intentionally or unintentionally.
So do you. Who cares?
Hey guys, how about this:
I ought to devise a pseudo-history of mankind. Then when I'm done with that one I ought to make another, and then another, then another, and another, and so on. Then, I'll ask historians whether they believe in these stories I made up. Whenever they inevitably say no, I'll say "The overwhelming majority of historians reject the overwhelming majority of histories. Therefore, there is no history! Our species and planet don't have any past at all, and we ought to mock and discriminate against anyone who believes otherwise!"
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@Swagnarok
It's amazing what fear can produce.
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@Swagnarok
How about you tell me how many god stories you believe?
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@vagabond
Simple, the same reason why any man rejects the "overwhelming" majority of preference of any topic that exists with variations and expressions....for example....one might reject the notion that rap is music, or even good music even though rap is in a musical category and exists as music, and one might reject the notion that certain foods are good even though foods all exist in the same category. One might reject the notion of love, even though love exists someone else's experience might dictate that no love truly exists. So likewise one may reject the notion of another's God experience even though it's in the same category and same line of observation simply out of distaste or opinion. One may reject the experience or preference of another's witness in many ways even though the experience was actual..... so people may not support or believe in another persons experience or interpretation of spirituality and TBH it's irrelevant to the fact of the matter. God stories are a dime a dozen like every other experience or preference, doesn't make them less real or legit, rather various and unique just as souls are by nature.
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@EtrnlVw
As usual you used an inordinate number of words to say absolutely nothing. Good for you.
" Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
"because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Faith in God is faith in The Truth, not created things. These are quotations from the bible, which is a created thing.
The testimony of the bible is to have faith in God, The Truth. That is why the bible is used, not because it is an idol before God, who is The Truth.
And the bible will reveal the things in you that keep you from being completely honest about loving The Truth.
But not everyone knows how to read the bible. I would say that the most useful books for the initiates are the letters written to the church. There is something there for wherever you are at in your spiritual development, but they maintain their usefulness even to someone who has been reading them their whole life.
The faith is very simple though. Love God, who is The Truth, and be charitable to one another with sincerity. The scriptures are intended to direct the heart in this manner.
So make no mistake, there are many "gods", but there is only One True God, and all things come from that God, because if something exists it must exist in truth, and The Truth is God.
So when I say God, I am saying "The Truth", and what is meant by "The Truth" is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality. This is the name and identity of God, and The Truth is what sets you free. God is the savior of all.
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@Mopac
Why should anyone care what the Bible has to say?
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@drafterman
There are a lot of reasons to care. It could be as simple as curiosity. It could be because you believe something about it.
There is no easy answer to this question, and reading the bible does not guarantee that you will get anything it is trying to say. There are a lot of bible thumpers with pretty strange beliefs.
But the letters to the church do a pretty good job of explaining the faith. Romans is pretty thorough. It might be a good idea to study with a church
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@Mopac
Curiosity is why, for example, I might look into the math beyond some interesting cryptographic algorithm. Yes, in that sense I might "care" but also if I go throughout my whole live never knowing that bit of information, I'm not going to suffer ill consequences.
Does it matter whether or not I believe the Bible?
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@drafterman
What matters is that you recognize God is The Truth, and to love God with everything. Chase after highest Truth. That is what is important.
Otherwise, what hope is there for the illiterate?
But if you love God, it will make you a more honest person, it will remove the wicked works in your mind that hold you back, it will make you a more competent person, give you sincere humility, make loving others easier, guide you into happiness, and give peace even in trying circumstances.
It's about loving Truth, and forgiving others who have fallen short just as God has forgiven you for falling short.
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@Mopac
And how does one do that?What matters is that you recognize God is The Truth
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@drafterman
Do you know what is meant by "The Truth"? Could you explain your understanding of that concept?
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@vagabond
How about you tell me how many god stories you believe?
And you, how many god stories do you believe?
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@Stephen
You don't understand questions or answers, well done you.
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@Mopac
We know that you think that a god invented a couple of thousand years ago is truth and that is just stupid isn't it?
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@vagabond
Do you know what is meant by "The Truth"?
No. I know what the word "truth" means in the generic, dictionary sense. I do not know what the "Truth" means. Perhaps you could explain.
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@vagabond
@drafterman
The Truth means "The Ultimate Reality".
You know, the way things actually are.
If you believe there is reality or truth at all, God is what makes these things realities and truth. God is The Foundational Reality. Eternal. Always was, always is.
See, truths and realities are relative. They are true for a time in relation to something else. They come, they go, they are not eternal. The Truth is always what it is.
That is what God means, and it is not a created thing. If your conception of God makes God a created thing, you are not actually looking at God, but something else. An essential quality of God is that God is uncreated. Another essential quality of God is that God exists.
Not only is God true regardless of what anyone says or what academics think about it, but the theologians or academics themselves understand God in this way.
All atheist arguments are contingent on redefining God to be something other than what God is. Monotheists have been making the same arguments against little g "gods" for thousands of years. Early Christians were accused of being atheists.
But while an atheist deludes themselves into thinking they have no gods, the monotheidt acknowledges The One True God. That is, The Truth Itself.
If you don't believe The Truth, you are adopting a foolish and self defeating position. It also makes you as nonsensical as the strawman gods you refute.
To say, "There is no God" is to say, "It is the truth that there is no such thing as truth".
To say, "Prove to me that God exists" is to say, "Prove to me that it is true that there is such a thing as truth."
To say, "I don't know if there is a God" is to admit one has doubts, and if you have doubts you at least know it is true you have doubts. There is no truth unless The Truth exists.
So everyone knows deep down that God exists.
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@Mopac
To say, "There is no God" is to say, "It is the truth that there is no such thing as truth".To say, "Prove to me that God exists" is to say, "Prove to me that it is true that there is such a thing as truth."To say, "I don't know if there is a God" is to admit one has doubts, and if you have doubts you at least know it is true you have doubts. There is no truth unless The Truth exists.So everyone knows deep down that God exists.
You see, you accuse atheists of playing word games with the word "God" but, as an atheist reading this, that's all I see you doing. You've just taken the word "truth", capitalized it, then called it "God." I don't buy that. The refutations quoted above only work if I accept this association of The Truth = God. Well, I don't buy that association.
Like I said, I know what "truth" is, in the generic dictionary sense, and that's all you've really described: things that are true. I really don't see the magic equation that somehow converts this into God.
We already have a word to describe "ultimate reality" and things that are true: "truth." I don't see the point in also labeling this "God." If God is nothing more than "The Truth" then we already have a word for that and it isn't necessary to speculate about God. If God is more than "The Truth," then what is it?
When I say: "There is no God", I am not saying "There is no such thing as the truth" because I don't subscribe to your notion that "God" is nothing more than another word for the "Truth." And before you accuse me of making up strawman gods, consider that the only conceptions of God I have been exposed to are those presented to me by other theists.
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@drafterman
Look, that is what God means. If you don't believe me, there are scriptures, there is thousands of years of theological writings, there are the two most well reputed English dictionaries in acadamia.
You are letting people who don't believe that there is truth to define your language for you. Think about that.
No better place to look than the most influential theologian in western thought, Saint Augustine. Throughout every single one of his books he makes the identity of God very clear.
The Truth is the God I believe in. It is the God I worship. You want my God to be less so that it justifies your patently ridiculous belief that my God isn't real. If you think my God isn't real, then that isn't the God I believe in, because my God Is Real.
The Truth sets you free, not the bowing down to vain idols and fabrications.
Believe me when I say, The Truth is God, and if you don't believe me, believe what I am saying because it is the evident truth that there is nothing else worthy to be called God than The Supreme And Ultimate Reality!
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@drafterman
Of course you believe that The Truth exists.
So you recognize God.
I am a theist, and I am telling you that this is what God means. Go by what I'm saying. Maybe the others you have heard don't know what they are talking about, or maybe you haven't made the connection yet. I don't know
What I do know is that The Truth is God and if you believe The Truth, you already recognize God even if you don't yet acknowledge God as being God.
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@Mopac
Look, that is what God means. If you don't believe me, there are scriptures, there is thousands of years of theological writings,
And why would I believe them if I don't believe you?
there are the two most well reputed English dictionaries in acadamia.
For example?
You are letting people who don't believe that there is truth to define your language for you. Think about that.
I am? How so?
No better place to look than the most influential theologian in western thought, Saint Augustine. Throughout every single one of his books he makes the identity of God very clear.
Ok, but you realize that someone just saying something is the case doesn't actually make it the case, right?
Believe me when I say, The Truth is God, and if you don't believe me, believe what I am saying because it is the evident truth that there is nothing else worthy to be called God than The Supreme And Ultimate Reality!
It is certainly not evident to me. The truth is just what happens to be the case. I don't see what that makes it "worthy" to be called "God".
I am a theist, and I am telling you that this is what God means. Go by what I'm saying. Maybe the others you have heard don't know what they are talking about, or maybe you haven't made the connection yet. I don't know
Or maybe you don't know what you are talking about? You've really given me no reason to accept your statements over any other random stranger.
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@drafterman
Believing what I'm saying isn't the same as believing me.
I'm not telling you to believe me, I'm telling you to believe The Truth.
See, faith in God is not the same as people or even what people say about God. It is faith in The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
Do you not believe me when I say that this is how theologians understand God? For thousands of years? Are you going to refute the words of an astronomer because you heard different and less true things from a few people who read an elementary astronomy book?
Can you really think of anything greater and more worthy to be called God than The Supreme and Ultimate Reality? There is nothing, and whether or not you believe, this is The God I believe in. You already admit that my God exists, yet you refuse to acknowledge God as God.
In doing so, are you going to fulfill the scripture that says,
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
Or are you going admit the evident truth that there is none greater, none more worthy to be called God?
This is what I believe, and I do not stand alone. There is a cloud of witnesses to back me up stretching back to the beginning from every corner of the world.
There is nothing innovative about what I am telling you. I am presenting you the gate to True Religion. Believe because it is good.
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@Mopac
Do you not believe me when I say that this isnhow theologians understand God? For thousands of years? Are you going to refute the words of an astronomer because you heard different and less true things from a few people who read an elementary astronomy book?
No. I don't believe you.
Can you really think of anything greater and more worthy to be called God than The Supreme and Ultimate Reality?
I don't think there is anything that exists that is worth of being called a god.
In doing so, are you going to fulfill the scripture that says,"For the wrath of God
Truths are simply facts of nature. They don't have thoughts, feelings, or "wrath." They are not conscious entities.
is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Truths are ideas. They are the state of things. They don't do anything, they just passively exist. They can't show anything to anyone.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Truths are don't have gender. It is nonsensical to call a truth "him" or "her."
Or are you going admit the evident truth that there is none greater, none more worthy to be called God?
You have described nothing I would admit falls into that characterization.
This is what I believe, and I do not stand alone. There is a cloud of witnesses to back me up stretching back to the beginning from every corner of the world.There is nothing innovative about what I am telling you. I am presenting you the gate to True Religion. Believe because it is good.
I haven't seen anything "good" about what you've written.
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@drafterman
There is nothing about saying "The Truth is God" that implies any of the discrepancies you have.
It sounds to me like you are superstitious.
You perhaps have a lot of unnecessary baggage surrounding the concept of "God".
Maybe you should stop attaching things you believe are untrue to The Truth.
And then realize that when you talk about The Truth, that is what the word "God" means. Not everything you think God means is The Truth.