What does 70 groups of 7 mean and why you think it means what it does: FOR PGA

The understanding of the prophecy came after I believed in Jesus, not before. What I am saying is that there were good reasons for believing in Jesus before I understood the prophetic message. The prophetic message is just one aspect and course of defence of the faith and the one I prefer to use because I have not found a reasonable answer to it with the evidence available to us. 

If this prophecy was proven false to your satisfaction, would you then stop believing in Jesus?

I think the answer is no. It sounds like from the above, the answer would be no. If I'm right, then why do you continue to talk about this prophecy as if anyone else should care about it, or stake their faith on it? It just seems strange. It doesn't mean much to you, if your faith doesn't hinge on it. Why should anyone else care?

Tell me what would make my prophecy impressive enough to perhaps allow that your god isn't the only god. I will, again, describe this prophecy and you can tell me which part of my description is LESS impressive than yours"

Show me another "god" who can predict over and over again the end of things from the beginning and give good reason to doing so repeatedly.

Show me your god doing it and we can compare, but you're missing the point: if I could show you unquestionable evidence of a prediction and a result, predicted years prior, to the month, with no reason or inkling to make it likely, would you think that would be evidence of whatever god I'd ascribe it to? 

My event without precedent means IT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. Your biblical prophesy hinges on something happening that had happened hundreds if not thousands of times before, and was totally unremarkable: Romans gentrifying an unrurly populace by destroying cultural touchstones. They did it for a thousand years.

Mine? Never happened, and hasn't happened since. Would you say it was harder to predict something that NEVER happened before, or something that had happened thousands of times before in very similar situations?

Daniel 9:24 predicts something into a year depending on where you start and how you work your extra-biblical multiplication in. Mine? Was predicted with unquestionable accuracy. It says "IN X YEAR THIS WILL HAPPEN." Which is more impressive prophesy, using clear language and an exact event and year, or vague poetry with some scholar figuring it out eventually, after the fact?

 

My prophesy has photographic evidence. Yours does not. Which one is more impressive?

So you believe then if I can provide you this prophesy and the prophet says Xenu told him, you'd say "You're right, I'll give Xenu credit?"

Daniel 9:24-27 is not vague. It is very specific

24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

If you think my theology is wrong then challenge my understanding of it. Let us see who has the more reasonable and logical position. That is all I'm asking. Instead, with most atheists, it becomes a game of avoiding the subject. 

You misunderstand the scope and weightiness of the prophecy. It was the complete collapse of a system of worship and relationship practiced for over one thousand years. It was the culmination of all OT unfulfilled prophecy being fulfilled, including the first and second coming of the Messiah, the judgment, and resurrection into a new and everlasting kingdom for believers. You misunderstand the myriad of references by all these prophets and teachers sent by God all being fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation that received Jesus. 

I honestly don't know what questions I've left open.

All I've said is you can't use your claim (the bible) as evidence of itself, and you can't say something is in the bible if it isn't (footnotes) because then you're not talking about biblical prophesy.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Destruction-Of-Jerusalem

As it is, your prophecy, "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD," does not in any way appear in the bible.

The passage deals with a far shorter amount of time, and it draws on interpretation of an account of someone's dream which had a statue that had clay feet. The more I think about, the key factor in prophesy would seem to be that it's something you clearly can take advance action on. If you can only figure out it was a prophesy after whatever prophesied happened, and even then only with some real twisting and turning, then it isn't much good at all. I'll give you an example you'll appreciate: Rory McIlroy's dad prophesied in 2004 that he'd win the 2014 British Open. He bet something like 400 pounds on it, and ended up winning 171K when McIlroy DID win the 2014 British. That's pretty impressive prophesying, right? Still not the example I have in mind, but it's actionable and provable and specific. All things your prophesy isn't. In any case, restate your question that you feel I've left open and I'll gladly answer.

If you think my theology is wrong then challenge my understanding of it. Let us see who has the more reasonable and logical position. That is all I'm asking. Instead, with most atheists, it becomes a game of avoiding the subject. 

This is akin to asking if you think my understanding of the cinematic universe of Star Wars is wrong, then challenge my understanding of it. It's a ridiculous question because you don't think that Star Wars is real, so it doesn't really matter if I understand it differently than you do.

The more important question is why do the majority of CHristians think you're wrong?

You're all in the same club supposedly. But more importantly, you've done this a couple of times: you shift the goalposts. I'm asking what's DEMONSTRABLE. You're saying your position is REASONABLE, LOGICAL, but neither of those are demonstrable.

Is a black hole logical? Is the gravitational force exerted on light and the resulting time dilation LOGICAL? No, but they are indeed both demonstrable. The problem I have is that you say that no matter what, you're not going to think you might be wrong. Even if this prophesy is DEFINITIVELY proven false, it doesn't shake your faith enough to say "Wait a minute, maybe the god in this book isn't correct."

You misunderstand the scope and weightiness of the prophecy. It was the complete collapse of a system of worship and relationship practiced for over one thousand years. It was the culmination of all OT unfulfilled prophecy being fulfilled, including the first and second coming of the Messiah, the judgment, and resurrection into a new and everlasting kingdom for believers. You misunderstand the myriad of references by all these prophets and teachers sent by God all being fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation that received Jesus. 

So zombie Hebrews rose from the graves and walked the streets at some point? Again, the vast, vast, vast majority of Christians, your own faith, do not believe any of this, why not, if it's so obvious?

Please show me the biblical passage that says "Verily, o yea, the LORD thy God will undermine the very essence of the great Roman Eagle, the ECONOMY! A pair of messiahs will arrive on this day and say "Told thee so!" and then all of my children will move into heaven with Me." I presume that's in the bible somewhere, and not in a footnote, and I presume it's specific, like McIlroy's dad. 

Or the example I described, which you can see here:  https://www.mlb.com/cut4/sports-illustrated-s-prediction-of-the-astros-winning-the-2017-world-series-prov

Again to review: never happened before, unlike Roman gentrification, which had happened thousands of times. Was specific in every way, naming not only a team (by name, not by description of a uniform or in vague terms like "a group of southern stars shall band together," it just says the Astros) but the EXACT MONTH in which the prediction would occur (it does not say 174 groups of seven or 36 groups of 30 plus a little margin, the World Series happens in the last two weeks of October every year). The prediction cover even accidentally picked the player who would win the WS MVP (george Springer is the player on the cover in 2014, and is the WS MVP in 2017). Is this not an impressive prophesy? It's so accurate that the only possible explanation is the involvement of Xenu. Right? 

Let me guess, it doesn't meet some condition you require but have heretofore been unable to specify? And now you'll explain why it's not as good as your prophesy, after the fact, even though it is exactly as I described.  

It is unreasonable to think that blind chance happenstance can produce let alone sustain life. An atheist worldview continues to push the narrative that it can. 

I don't think that those scientists working on abiogenesis (there aren't all that many)think of it in terms of the noble task of disproving divine creation!

 Anyone familiar with the complexity of even the simplest living thing should agree it does seem very unreasonable and unlikely that blind chance could produce life.  But if you don't - for whatever reason - like to just say 'a miracle occurred'  the only option is to go into the lab and see how it could have happened.  it's not anti-religion that motivates researchers; it's their curiosity and love of having a really difficult problem to solve.

They don't think they are disproving god - they are just being there crurious.

I don't mind it being said that belief in abiogenesis requires faith - it does.  It requires bloody-mindedness that there is a naturalistic,mechanistic explanation of life to not give up on such a hard problem!  But I've not met, read or heard of a biologist who was motivated anti-religious fervour, with possible exception of Richard Dawkins but he gave up being a badly-paid biologist and became a rich professional atheist!  His early books are so much better than The God Delusion... but I digress!

Your off topic again.

I'll shorten for clarity. I am not the one who claims to  'make sense' of any of the following questions. YOU are. I invited you to make sense of just one of them, and your answer literally made zero sense. I said "make sense of the universe" and you said "god loves us."

This is a non-sequitur and makes no sense of the question. Similarly, I think that it's the same answer for your litany of other 'big questions.' Your making sense of it is basically because Jesus, which does not in any way make sense of anything, it just adds a layer of mystery which you've repeatedly been unable to demonstrate is required. The other thread's at 28 pages and all you have done is say 'The bible says it so it's true!"

No, it reminds me of how we got to where we are. It reminds me that you would not have done any better than Adam did having been given that choice. It reminds me why there is so much inhumanity in this world - that humanity decided to do what they saw fit, not what God commanded was good. 

...and therefore it's just that some mother's suffering the loss of her child, neither of whom had nothing to do with any of that. 

I see the heartache of those who lose children and I see God's promises that those who trust in Him will never be put to shame, that God has promised a better life for those who believe than for those that do not trust Him

Wow, tough luck for those muslims and jews, then.

You have not definitively proven it false. You have skirted the issue in your own interpretation where you take the word "weeks" as a literal period of weeks instead of years. Thus, our discussion is over since you will not proceed further. 

How do you think the Jews of the first century thought about Daniel's prophecy? 

Do you think they were looking for a Messiah around this 1st-century period?

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Destruction-Of-Jerusalem

As it is, your prophecy, "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD," does not in any way appear in the bible.

The concept of this judgment is presented in Daniel 9 and it is a concept that is presented in Deuteronomy 28 in the curses of disobedience. It is presented in many other OT passages. 

Please show me the biblical passage that says "Verily, o yea, the LORD thy God will undermine the very essence of the great Roman Eagle, the ECONOMY! A pair of messiahs will arrive on this day and say "Told thee so!" and then all of my children will move into heaven with Me." I presume that's in the bible somewhere, and not in a footnote, and I presume it's specific, like McIlroy's dad. 

Please list the passage you are referencing. 

First, George Springer was with the Astros in 2014 and a promising player. Although he was on the cover where did it prophesy he was to be the MVP? Second, the team was in a rebuilding in which they foresaw themselves as contenders in three years time. Where does the article say they would win 5-1

I'll show you: if all life comes from life, where did Adam come from?

Creating by the eternal LIVING God --> life from the living.  

So where did the life in the LIVING god come from?

Again, I am speaking of all life that had a beginning. God, being without beginning nor end is excluded from such a definition. I asked you, "How can an eternal Being have a beginning to His life?"

Again, it is your PRESUPPOSITION that He does not exist, not mine.

Therefore, your worldview is reductionistic. It can't make sense of these issues, which I have been claiming all along. It reduces existence to only a materialistic understanding which lacks what is necessary to make sense of your existence.

You have not definitively proven it false. You have skirted the issue in your own interpretation where you take the word "weeks" as a literal period of weeks instead of years. Thus, our discussion is over since you will not proceed further. 

"Weeks" = weeks. "Years" = years. If it meant years, it'd say years. 

How do you think the Jews of the first century thought about Daniel's prophecy? 

Do you think they were looking for a Messiah around this 1st-century period?

Don't know.

I'd bet the jews of the first century had spent a lot of time looking for a messiah, so maybe, and what the jews of the first century thought about something that didn't happen as prophesied to them, I can't say. Nor can you. And nor does the bible.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Destruction-Of-Jerusalem

As it is, your prophecy, "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD," does not in any way appear in the bible.

The concept of this judgment is presented in Daniel 9 and it is a concept that is presented in Deuteronomy 28 in the curses of disobedience. It is presented in many other OT passages. 

The "Concept of judgement" is not the same as "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD." It's a concept, not a prophesy. A concept that did not require the bible at all.

Please show me the biblical passage that says "Verily, o yea, the LORD thy God will undermine the very essence of the great Roman Eagle, the ECONOMY! A pair of messiahs will arrive on this day and say "Told thee so!" and then all of my children will move into heaven with Me." I presume that's in the bible somewhere, and not in a footnote, and I presume it's specific, like McIlroy's dad. 

Please list the passage you are referencing. 

You're the bible guy, I'm asking YOU to show me that passage, Is there a passage that says that, or anything like that?

First, George Springer was with the Astros in 2014 and a promising player. Although he was on the cover where did it prophesy he was to be the MVP? Second, the team was in a rebuilding in which they foresaw themselves as contenders in three years time. Where does the article say they would win 5-1

The AStros didn't write the article about themselves. And you're holding the AStros to a standard far above your JEsus.

But this is exactly the reaction I suspected: if it's not your specific prophesy, regardless of any other aspect, it's not a real prophesy (you did the same thing with the McIlroy one, in fact invoking the very criticism Keith has about your own prophesy: that there would be a driving force TRYING to make the prophesy happen, this is what people say about retrofitting history to fit non-specific non-actionable prophesies).

THe bottom line is that the article predicted something that had never happened before, years in the past, with such specificity that you could have bet on it. Why isn't it as impressive? Because it doesn't contain.,,well, what exactly? It contains exactly the same amount of Jesus. 

I'll show you: if all life comes from life, where did Adam come from?

Creating by the eternal LIVING God --> life from the living.  

So where did the life in the LIVING god come from?

Again, I am speaking of all life that had a beginning. God, being without beginning nor end is excluded from such a definition. I asked you, "How can an eternal Being have a beginning to His life?"

Yeah, that's exactly special pleading. I have no reason to believe anything is eternal, I mean can you show me eternal anything? 

Again, it is your PRESUPPOSITION that He does not exist, not mine.

Would you say that you have a "presupposition" that leprechauns don't exist, and that in order to disbelieve in them, YOU have to go conclusively prove they don't? The correct way to do this, not to mention the best way to reduce your chances of getting fleeced by con men the world over, is to start with the neutral position and examine the demonstration and evidence. Otherwise you're going to buy a lot of snake oil. Please prove that lightning bolts don't come from Zeus. 

Therefore, your worldview is reductionistic. It can't make sense of these issues, which I have been claiming all along. It reduces existence to only a materialistic understanding which lacks what is necessary to make sense of your existence.

You aren't making sense of your existence either, and I'm not sure why, even if whatever my worldview being reductionistic means is true, that means it's wrong somehow. I'll give you this, at least you're consistent: every one of these arguments you're making is argument from incredulity, argument from authority and argument from special pleading / special knowledge.