Another classic: Intercessory Prayer and Efficacy

Author: ludofl3x

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#1
ludofl3x
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This is another one I always enjoy, though I admit it's largely a monotheist / Abrahamic question. If your version of god is all knowing, and has a plan, what would be the point of prayer? If, for example, you have a relative who gets diagnosed with an illness, would you pray for them to get better? It seems praying for god to do his will is pointless, he's going to do it anyway. If you're praying for the illness to cure, aren't you asking god to change his plan? If you don't expect him to change his plan, and he's going to either cure or not cure anyway, aren't you hoping the unchangeable god changes its mind? I guess I just don't understand how this is supposed to work. Of course if you think god can change his mind, or that he doesn't have a full plan< i get that praying would seem like a sensible idea, but otherwise I don't get it.

I limit it to intercessory prayer, but if you like, some people think prayer is simply to praise his name. Why does god need or want people to do that?
#2
Ramshutu
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@ludofl3x
This reminds of me of this George Carlin sketch:

#3
Polytheist-Witch
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Super smart atheists don't understand basic religious concepts. Funny us retard theists get it. Must be too smart to understand. Maybe you should move on and not lower IQ asking us questions. 
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#4
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@Polytheist-Witch
Please do try to keep up. It's not the CONCEPT of prayer I don't understand (communicating with a deity is the CONCEPT of prayer). It's the efficacy (this word means "how effective something is") of praying for any outcome at all, for any INTERCESSION (the noun version of intercessory, essentially asking god to step in and INTERCEDE or CHANGE his own plan). Why do you continue to do this to yourself? If you don't want to respond, is there some reason that you do anyway? I even point out in the topic this thread really doesn't apply to someone who believes all gods somehow exist. 
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@ludofl3x
Cause polytheists don't pray. Another retard comment from the smartest guy on the interwebs. 
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#6
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@Polytheist-Witch
Maybe you need to meet someone who's a hindu. They pray and are polytheistic. Come on, now. You can do better than this. I say that with exactly the same level of evidence there is for anyone's god and as an argument from personal incredulity. In other words, not because I have seen you do better, I take it on faith, simply because I cannot believe someone as inept at having conversations in general, and about their beliefs and the beliefs of others specifically, spends any time on a message board like this at all. Why bother? It must be because you're harboring something more you want to say. 
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@ludofl3x
I don't have to provide you with evidence to have my religion freedom hating pig. Yes I post here because I hate atheists. You are pigs and hate freedom and theists. How have you missed this? 
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@Polytheist-Witch
Careful now, that vein in your temple is currently visible from space.
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@ludofl3x
Of course, the idea of prayer doesn’t make a lot of sense as you said, If the intercession the prayer is advocating was warranted, one would suppose that god would have done it anyways.

Theres the idea God would answer prayers for strength, etc, but even that seems a bit like God is demanding you beg him to give you willpower, otherwise he will not give you willpower, and you will fail. This has always seemed a bit incoherent to me.
#10
Goldtop
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Just recently, there was an interview with a survior of the Venezuelan dam that broke and killed hundreds. He said he prayed to God and God saved him, meanwhile hundreds of others are missing or dead. Did they too pray to God and God said, "NO! I will save only one guy, the rest of you are toast!"?
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@Ramshutu
So you are in outer space but I am the dip shit. 
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@Polytheist-Witch
So you are in space but I am the dipshit? 
I would have gone with angry ranting harpy, but I guess dipshit also works.
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#13
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@Polytheist-Witch
I don't have to provide you with evidence to have my religion freedom hating pig. Yes I post here because I hate atheists. You are pigs and hate freedom and theists. How have you missed this? 
I didn't ask you for evidence to justify your religious freedom. I do ask for it if you're going to impose any of your beliefs on me in any way, though, but since you aren't, the question is less about taking anything away from you than it is about WHY DO YOU BELIEVE. You don't have an answer. 

Isn't it weird that you legitimately admit to bigotry right here but about 40% of your posts are accusing others of the same? 

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#14
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@Goldtop
He said he prayed to God and God saved him, meanwhile hundreds of others are missing or dead. Did they too pray to God and God said, "NO! I will save only one guy, the rest of you are toast!"?

Or maybe there's a bunch of other dead people waiting in line to be processed thinking "Jeez, I wish I'd thought of that!!"
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Polytheist-Witch
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@ludofl3x
My being a bigot doesn't make you less of one. I haven't imposed shit on you. You are on a religious forum. I am not in an atheist forum. Ask yourself why you need to impose your hate on us. If you could remove religion from society you would. But keep lying to people about what you want. 
#16
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@Ramshutu
Says a guy who thinks theists are ruining his daily life. 

#17
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@Polytheist-Witch
Says a guy who thinks theists are ruining his daily life. 
Wow, someone should let me know that I think that. I’m walking around not realizing that I think that way, I’m glad you pointed that out, I would have never guessed that’s what I thought on the grounds that I have never thought or felt that at any point in my entire life.
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#18
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@Polytheist-Witch
Can I ask you, can you point me to a single post of yours where you are thoughtfully debating another theist? Like take PGA2.0, for example. You and he are both theists. Have you ever engaged him THOUGHTFULLY and COHERENTLY on why his beliefs are wrong and yours are right? Because honestly without atheists in a religion forum, none of you would talk to each other at all, it seems. 
#19
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@Goldtop
At the bare minimum prayer is mostly reinforced by a ton of confirmation bias in this way.
#20
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@ludofl3x
What the fuck do you care if theists get along? I don't think his views are wrong per se other then he thinks his god is the only one. On that is just an atheist like you and deserves the same treatment. You are the one here telling us we are stupid and need to change for you to be happy.
#21
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@Ramshutu
Liar. 
#22
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@Polytheist-Witch
Liar. 
Are you okay?

You forgot to call me a bigot

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#23
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@Polytheist-Witch
What the fuck do you care if theists get along?
I don't care if theists get along. I care that PEOPLE get along. It's neither here nor there, it's yet another invented outrage on your part. 

On that is just an atheist like you and deserves the same treatment. I don't think his views are wrong per se other then he thinks his god is the only one.
THe underlined part seems like incoherent babble. The rest... So you do think they're wrong, then? His belief that his god is the only god is...incorrect, right? Or in other words, wrong?

You are the one here telling us we are stupid and need to change for you to be happy.
Please show me the post where I've said anything along these lines. 
#24
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@ludofl3x
I don't care if theists get along. I care that PEOPLE get along. It's neither here nor there, it's yet another invented outrage on your part. 
No you don't. You come here and insult every theists with your posts. Plus you hate religion thereby hating theists. 

THe underlined part seems like incoherent babble. The rest... So you do think they're wrong, then? His belief that his god is the only god is...incorrect, right? Or in other words, wrong?

Sorry, moron, let me sum it up better. Monotheists are atheist to all gods but theirs. Fucking idiot. 
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#25
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@Polytheist-Witch
Ah Poly, you're a real peach. Never change, baby. I can appreciate consistency, but the level to which you take willful ignorance and personal offense to everything, it's just stunning! Like I start to wonder if this is some sort of long-game performance art. Maybe you're an Andy Kaufman character.
#26
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@ludofl3x
Must be cause I can't be real. The idea someone hates you as much as you hate theists is unbelievable. 
#27
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@ludofl3x
PWs reaction in this thread reminds me of this:


#28
Mopac
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We Orthodox pray an awful lot during liturgy, in the intercessary way I mean. We pray for pretty much everyone. We ask God to show mercy. 

I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
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@Mopac
Do you think your prayers to God changes anything?
#30
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@ludofl3x
If your version of god is all knowing, and has a plan, what would be the point of prayer?
That one can intercede for others and persude god to alter his plans is well shown in Gen 18:22-32 where Abraham pleads for Sodom.

"Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.”

Is God supposed to be literally omnipotent and omniscient, or 'only' very,very powerful and very,very wise? 

Theologians gave God literally 'infinite' properties to solve some problems, but at the expense of creating other problems - such as 'can god create a stone he cannot lift?'.

If we don't adopt the pedantry of midieval scholastic theologians regarding God's alleged perfection then prayer makes sense.
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