A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God

Author: ludofl3x

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#301
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@ludofl3x
Phones work both ways, and i'm the one who's not retired and has a 15 hour schedule day to day with kids.
Agreed. I'll wait for god to pray to me.  Then I'll ignore him to see how he likes it!

God: "O keithprosser who art in Croydon, Hallowed be thy name..."
KP:  Get lost.



 

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@keithprosser
I would argue it does, that every OT writing is a type and shadow of what was to come and I can demonstrate this over and over again. There is a unity from the OT Scriptures that is explained and makes sense from the NT perspective. Prophecy and its fulfillment make sense from the NT perspective. 
I'm familiar with type theory - I don't accept it. 
Yet Jesus fits the type to a tee. He fits the Second Adam, the Second Moses, the type of the sacrificial system, the type of the feasts, the type of Deliverer, Priest, Prophet, King, Mediator. What is said of God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT. The Mosaic Covenant people make a covenant with God; the NT people covenant is made through Jesus and is a covenant in Him. 

On most pages of the OT, we find this typology. 
 

But this thread is crowded so I'll wait for another occasion to revisit this stuff .


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Yet Jesus fits the type to a tee. He fits the Second Adam, the Second Moses, the type of the sacrificial system, the type of the feasts, the type of Deliverer, Priest, Prophet, King, Mediator. What is said of God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT. The Mosaic Covenant people make a covenant with God; the NT people covenant is made through Jesus and is a covenant in Him. 
I scarce need to say that if I asked brutal he'd say Jesus is nothing like Adam or Moses!

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@keithprosser
Yet Jesus fits the type to a tee. He fits the Second Adam, the Second Moses, the type of the sacrificial system, the type of the feasts, the type of Deliverer, Priest, Prophet, King, Mediator. What is said of God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT. The Mosaic Covenant people make a covenant with God; the NT people covenant is made through Jesus and is a covenant in Him. 
I scarce need to say that if I asked brutal he'd say Jesus is nothing like Adam or Moses!
I might also say,

(IFF) the Jesus is the second adam, the second moses, the type of the sacrificial system (dead sheep), the type of the feasts (cannibalism), the type of deliverer (like DHL), priest, prophet (of themself), king (of which territory), mediator (THEN) what exactly is your conclusion?
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My conclusion is people see what they want to see.
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Don't you think it's a little strange that parts of the gospels and the story of the messiah were written down before the Jesus was born?
Such as (other than prophecy)? 
From the moment of their discovery, some scholars suggested that at least some of the scrolls may be the work of early Christians.
Even if some of these scrolls could be as you say, the OT books that date before Christ can't be attributed to Christians. Qumran does seem to be a diverse library so based on this testimony there is credence for such a view that some of the scrolls may be as the article says. It seems reasonable.  

After all, a certain “Teacher of Righteousness” is mentioned as a persecuted figure and there is also a “Wicked Priest” and other characters that seem to mirror early Christianity. Most scholars, however, have dismissed any connection between the community that hid their scroll library some 2,000 years ago in caves at Qumran and the earliest followers of Jesus. Now, I’ve made a discovery that may change all this. Put simply, I believe that one of the fragments called by scholars by the very unappealing name of “4Q541” explicitly refers to Jesus. [LINK]


Again, this does not equate to every scroll as a Christian document. A vast amount contains OT scrolls that were written before Christianity. 

The Dead Sea Scrolls are a collection of Jewish religious and secular documents, many of them dating back to pre-Christian times. There is no irrefutable reference among the scrolls to Jesus. There are references to cryptic persons such as the “Teacher of Righteousness”, but there is no evidence that the Teacher, or any other person mentioned in the scrolls, is meant to be Jesus.
Nevertheless, some scholars have sought to find evidence about early Christianity among the scrolls. For example, Robert Eisenman (The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians) sees a possible reference to Jesus in the Damascus Document, and believes “Teacher of Righteousness” may have been James the Just.Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_the_Dead_Sea_Scrolls_say_about_Jesus#ixzz1yu8E2sAQ
A researcher follows up on this claim and turns up with a dead end:
“I  [(Michael Sanders, Author of “Mysteries of the Bible, James, the Brother of Jesus”) was not to be denied. I sent him [(Professor Robert Eisenman (Author of “The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians”)]-this last note in brackets added by Author Samuel Butler- “fax after fax asking him the simple question. If James the Brother of Jesus is the Righteous Teacher, who was Jesus, I couldn’t find a character in the scrolls that would fit the picture.”
“He (Professor Eisenman) never answered the faxes until one day his assistant called and everything was made crystal clear. There was no mention of Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls because Jesus as a living historical figure, in their theory, did not exist. They could not state that publicly because of the fear of an outcry, but that was the situation.”

The scrolls were written around 250 BCE – 70 CE, putting them in the Second Temple period and at time of the New Testament. Written mainly in Hebrew and Aramaic (as well as a few in Greek) they reveal the thought patterns of that movement in Judaism in that time....
The content of the scrolls are 40% copies of biblical texts, 10% copies of Deuterocanonical texts also found in other places, and 50% are unique texts of the Qumran community. There are no known copies of text from the New Testament...
The Dead Sea Scrolls reveal manuscripts of many books of the Old Testament that are more ancient than any manuscript ever known before. Before the Dead Sea discovery, the most ancient whole text we had in Hebrew was the Masoretic text from the 10th century, and the oldest complete biblical text was the Septuagint (LXX), a Greek translation from the 4th century. The Dead Sea Scrolls, however, were written about a thousand years earlier, most of them even before the time of the New Testament.
The Dead Sea Scrolls contain parts from each book of the Old Testament, except the Book of Esther, and many complete copies of some of the books, such as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Psalms, and others, but the contents of the manuscripts are much more important than their age or number.
Scholars were anxious to confirm that these Dead Sea Scrolls were the most ancient of all Old Testament manuscripts in the Hebrew language. Three types of dating tools were used: tools from archaeology, from the study of ancient languages, called paleography and orthography, and the carbon-14 dating method. Each can derive accurate results. When all the methods arrive at the same conclusion, there is an increased reliability in the dating.
Archaeologists studied the pottery, coins, graves, and garments at Khirbet Qumran, where the Essenes lived. They arrived at a date ranging from the second century B.C. to the first century A.D. Paleographers studied the style of writing and arrived at dates raging from the third century B.C. to the first century A.D. Scientists, using the radiocarbon dating method, dated the scrolls to range from the fourth century B.C. to the first century A.D. Since all the methods came to a similar conclusion, scholars are very confident in their assigned date for the texts. The scrolls date as early as the third century B.C. to the first century A.D.

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@keithprosser
Yet Jesus fits the type to a tee. He fits the Second Adam, the Second Moses, the type of the sacrificial system, the type of the feasts, the type of Deliverer, Priest, Prophet, King, Mediator. What is said of God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT. The Mosaic Covenant people make a covenant with God; the NT people covenant is made through Jesus and is a covenant in Him. 
I scarce need to say that if I asked brutal he'd say Jesus is nothing like Adam or Moses!

Nonetheless, the teaching is presented in the NT as to how Jesus related to OT Scripture. Some of the typologies are also through inference and comparison. For instance, regarding Moses, God used him as a mediator and deliverer for His people Israel. Moses was the instrument God used to initiate the Mosaic Covenant. Similarly, Moses was a type of Christ. Jesus was the Mediator or a new covenant, the Deliverer of His people to the New Promised Land. Moses was told to smear the blood of a lamb on the doorposts and lental and the Angel of Death would pass over that household. This foreshadows a greater spiritual truth. Jesus blood was smeared on the upright and crossbeam of the cross. He is our sacrificial lamb that ensures the Angel of Death passes over us. Moses took the people of Israel into the wilderness where they sojourned for 40 years and because of unbelief most of that generation never entered the Promised Land. Those with unbelief perished in the wilderness during those forty years. The same is true of those who did not trust in Jesus Christ. They met judgment at the end of the forty-year period when the change took place and the transition between the two covenants was complete. Jesus told them that "this generation" would not pass away before everything was accomplished. He told them that the kingdom of heaven was near, that some standing with Him would not pass away before He came again in victory to take them where He was. That happened in AD 70. Moses and the people crossed from bondage in Egypt (sin) to freedom when they crossed the Red Sea. Jesus takes the believer on a spiritual journey from spiritual bondage and sin to freedom and the journey towards the promised land, the heavenly country. God fed the people manna from heaven and Moses struck the "rock" which the NT attributes to Christ Jesus. Jesus called Himself the true manna from heaven, the greater reality.  

Now I have scratched the surface on the similarities regarding Moses and Christ. I could do the same Adam and Christ and on multiple topics to show the unity between the testaments and the pointing to Jesus Christ. I could also have given the Scriptural references for my statements above and will if you are interested. So, this is more than just coincidence. 


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@keithprosser
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”

[ One Sacrifice of Christ Is Sufficient ] For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

Luke 24:25-27
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24:44-47
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 3
17 “And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed to everything He says to you. 23 And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”


The time of restoration of all things was AD 70.

#309
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I've tried to break down your 'wall of text'.

Moses, God used him as a mediator and deliverer for His people Israel.
Jesus was the Mediator or a new covenant, the Deliverer of His people to the New Promised Land.

Moses was told to smear the blood of a lamb on the doorposts and lental,
Jesus blood was smeared on the upright and crossbeam of the cross.

Moses took the people of Israel into the wilderness where they sojourned for 40 years and because of unbelief most of that generation never entered the Promised Land. Those with unbelief perished in the wilderness during those forty years.
The same is true of those who did not trust in Jesus Christ. They met judgment at the end of the forty-year period when the change took place and the transition between the two covenants was complete.

Moses and the people crossed from bondage in Egypt (sin) to freedom when they crossed the Red Sea.
Jesus takes the believer on a spiritual journey from spiritual bondage and sin to freedom and the journey towards the promised land, the heavenly country.

God fed the people manna from heaven and Moses struck the "rock" which the NT attributes to Christ Jesus.
Jesus called Himself the true manna from heaven, the greater reality. 

I think you have to be sympathetic to the type concept before hand!  If not the parallels seem forced and artificial.   Of course the gospel writers were familiar with the OT and its traditions.   Of course they wanted to present jesus as following on in the line of the heroes of the past.  You are seeing something close to miraculous - I am seeing deliberate propaganda.  I very much doubt that will ever change!
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@disgusted
The same can be said of Daniel 9:24-27. It is a very specific prophecy concerning very specific people (Daniel's people who are in a covenant relationship with God) plus a very specific time frame in which specific events will happen.

And that time frame is 70 weeks. Show me a different time frame in that prophesy.
I have explained to you before how the timeframe is arrived at. 

The opening two words of this prophecy, Seventy weeks or Seventy sevens (Shavoeem Sheeveem) are understood by most biblical scholars to refer to a designation of a prophetic period of time measured by the number seven. (Also known as a heptad or septets) Almost all interpretations (both Jewish and Christian) agree that these periods of seven are equal to 70 sets of seven years (70 X 7) equaling a total of 490 prophetic years. A week in this prophecy is a week of years meaning each week is equal to seven years of actual time. Daniel was already thinking in terms of years back in Daniel 9:2.

Orthodox Judaism agrees little with this pre-Millennium Christian view concerning the Daniel seventy-week prophecy, but there are some things they both agree on. Both views hold that Daniel was a Jewish prophet to his people the Jews, whereby they (the Jews) would play a major role in the fulfillment of this prophecy. Also, within Daniel's prophecy, each day of the seventy weeks are counted for a year based upon the Hebrew scriptures Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6.

Numbers 14:34 (NASB)
34 According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, even forty years, and you will know My opposition.

Thus, God banned or exiled Israel for 70 years from the land during the Babylonian exile and because they did not repent He initiates another period but this time instead of seventy years it would be multiplied by seven (seventy sevens). The concept of sevens is also found in the Law.

If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

‘If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins.

then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins.

then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins.

#311
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Perhaps for clarity you could give some specific dates and events?   for exaple 490 from 70AD is c. 420BC - why start counting from then? 
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@keithprosser
My conclusion is people see what they want to see.
While this is often true people sometimes catch a glimpse of truth and see things for what they are. The question is do you see the Bible as it is or as you want to see it? Do you hear the message or do you just hear what you want to hear? Do you understand its truths or just what you want to understand?

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@keithprosser
I've tried to break down your 'wall of text'.
Thank you, nice job!


Moses, God used him as a mediator and deliverer for His people Israel.
Jesus was the Mediator or a new covenant, the Deliverer of His people to the New Promised Land.

Moses was told to smear the blood of a lamb on the doorposts and lental,
Jesus blood was smeared on the upright and crossbeam of the cross.

Moses took the people of Israel into the wilderness where they sojourned for 40 years and because of unbelief most of that generation never entered the Promised Land. Those with unbelief perished in the wilderness during those forty years.
The same is true of those who did not trust in Jesus Christ. They met judgment at the end of the forty-year period when the change took place and the transition between the two covenants was complete.

Moses and the people crossed from bondage in Egypt (sin) to freedom when they crossed the Red Sea.
Jesus takes the believer on a spiritual journey from spiritual bondage and sin to freedom and the journey towards the promised land, the heavenly country.

God fed the people manna from heaven and Moses struck the "rock" which the NT attributes to Christ Jesus.
Jesus called Himself the true manna from heaven, the greater reality. 

I think you have to be sympathetic to the type concept before hand!  If not the parallels seem forced and artificial.   Of course the gospel writers were familiar with the OT and its traditions.   Of course they wanted to present jesus as following on in the line of the heroes of the past.  You are seeing something close to miraculous - I am seeing deliberate propaganda.  I very much doubt that will ever change!

There are only so many things that can be forced unless you think that Jesus is/was a fictitious character and how reasonable is that evidence. These people believe He is the Messiah and they testify to having witnessed His life, death, and resurrection. Many of these witnesses willingly suffer excruciating deaths without denying Him. These disciples and believers present noble concepts which do not correspond to liars. 

Not one of the gospels or epistles mentions an already destroyed city or temple, the temple being the very backbone and structure of their OT economy. Every epistle and gospel present an OT system of worship in detail. Each one mentions a coming, near judgment, yet not one mentions this as already taking place. 

Even if I see the miraculous, so what? Would God not be capable of miracles, of defying the natural realm?

The question is why do you doubt? Here are two scenarios for your consideration from a biblical perspective:

Do you think that you do not want to believe despite the evidence because you do not want to be accountable to God but want to do your own thing? Do you think that your own mind holds the keys to life and you will discover them unaided by God?

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@keithprosser

Perhaps for clarity you could give some specific dates and events?   for exaple 490 from 70AD is c. 420BC - why start counting from then?  
Using the Ptolemaic dating system? What makes you think it is accurate?
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@3RU7AL
There is a unity from the OT Scriptures that is explained and makes sense from the NT perspective. Prophecy and its fulfillment make sense from the NT perspective. 
I'm willing to accept you at your word on this (for the sake of this particular argument).

Let's say the scriptures as you understand them are 100% irrefutable pure uncut truth.

What practical and actionable advice does this give you?

It tells me that God can be trusted and that He has provided the means of atonement for our sins, that He is willing to forgive us and restore us to a living relationship with Him, that He (in Jesus the Savior) has met what we could not meet upon our own merit. Every world religion provides a system to restore us to God by what we do. Christianity is different. Someone else restores us so it is not based on our merit or works but by those of another.
 
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


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The question is why do you doubt?
Shifting the burden of proof fallacy.  The question is, why do you believe?  Doubt is always the default position.  It does not require "a reason".

Why do you doubt Ahura Mazda?  Don't you see how ridiculous that question sounds?

Here are two scenarios for your consideration from a biblical perspective:
False dichotomy fallacy.

Do you think that you do not want to believe despite the evidence
Begging the question.  Ancient writing is not necessarily "evidence".

because you do not want to be accountable to God but want to do your own thing?
Dime-store psychoanalysis.  Do you disbelieve in karma because you don't want to be accountable to karma?

Do you think that your own mind holds the keys to life and you will discover them unaided by God?
(IFF) god made human minds (AND) god is all knowing (THEN) god knew what our minds would conclude before we were ever born.
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It tells me that God can be trusted and that He has provided the means of atonement for our sins, that He is willing to forgive us and restore us to a living relationship with Him, that He (in Jesus the Savior) has met what we could not meet upon our own merit. Every world religion provides a system to restore us to God by what we do. Christianity is different. Someone else restores us so it is not based on our merit or works but by those of another.
I'm willing to accept you at your word on this (once again, for the sake of this particular argument).

Let's say the scriptures as you understand them are 100% irrefutable pure uncut truth.

What practical and actionable advice does this give you?

Grace and then what?
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@3RU7AL
The answer could be based on the factuality and logical consistency and coherency of the evidence of A, B, or C, or the number of contradictions and inconsistencies in making sense of A, B, or C. 
You seem to be suffering from the "objectivity" delusion.

The evidence is never 100% coherent.  That's why you need apologetics to explain how 70 weeks turns into 490 years or whatever.
The question is what is more reasonable and logical to believe?

Every apology needs an explanation.



The ancient text is not "self-evident".  It is not sola scriptura. [LINK]
In its original recording, it would be. We have copies of the original. Thus, there is some corruption due to transmission errors yet because of the vast amount of copies we can ascertain what the original said in most of Scripture. 


(IFF) you presume that your personally preferred sola scriptura is true (THEN) everyone who disagrees with you is either insincere, stupid, intellectually blind and deaf, or purely evil.
I invite the person to disprove that what I believe from Scripture is false. If they can demonstrate this, they have won my ear and understanding. 


(IFF) you presume that sola scriptura of another religion is true (THEN) everyone who disagrees with you is either insincere, stupid, intellectually blind and deaf, or purely evil.

I do not presume that sola scriptura from other religions are true. If Christianity is true it would eliminate every other religious view since all religious views are mutually exclusive to some extent and each one contradicts and discredits the others to some extent. Even so, they contain some truths in their writings since they borrow from the true. 
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@3RU7AL
It tells me that God can be trusted and that He has provided the means of atonement for our sins, that He is willing to forgive us and restore us to a living relationship with Him, that He (in Jesus the Savior) has met what we could not meet upon our own merit. Every world religion provides a system to restore us to God by what we do. Christianity is different. Someone else restores us so it is not based on our merit or works but by those of another.
I'm willing to accept you at your word on this (once again, for the sake of this particular argument).

Let's say the scriptures as you understand them are 100% irrefutable pure uncut truth.

What practical and actionable advice does this give you?

Grace and then what?

Truth, certainty, knowledge of God as He truly is (provided I correctly interpret His revelation), hope for the future, victory over death, a relationship and intimate understanding of His character and attributes, Someone to confide in, a Protector, One who loves me and forgives me all my human faults, a new nature that is no longer hostile to God, an understanding of the human condition, His teaching on what is right and wrong, and so much more. 

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Truth, certainty, knowledge of God as He truly is (provided I correctly interpret His revelation), hope for the future, victory over death, a relationship and intimate understanding of His character and attributes, Someone to confide in, a Protector, One who loves me and forgives me all my human faults, a new nature that is no longer hostile to God, an understanding of the human condition, His teaching on what is right and wrong, and so much more. 
So, confidence and hope and knowledge and a friend.

No atheist is "hostile to god".  Are you "hostile to Ahura Mazda or Marduk"?

Please explain what is right and wrong?  Do you just follow the Levitical law?

What practical and actionable advice does this give you?
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The question is why do you doubt? 
Shifting the burden of proof fallacy.
Just a question of curiosity. 

The question is, why do you believe?  Doubt is always the default position.  It does not require "a reason".
I believe because I trust the revelation for what it claims to be and in doing so the promise involved has been provided for me. What is that promise?

He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Through the biblical message I have been spoken to with logic and reason, then on top of that, I have looked into the questions that unbelievers present and I am convinced only one system of thought can make sense of our existence. I have investigated prophecy, the resurrection, and the other teachings. There is a unity and understanding in them that I have not found refuted. 

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Doubt always has a reason. 


Why do you doubt Ahura Mazda?  Don't you see how ridiculous that question sounds?
I don't have to know all things to know what is false. As long as I have the truth then I can know falsity, I can know what is
error
. 


Here are two scenarios for your consideration from a biblical perspective:
False dichotomy fallacy.
I have given two scenarios, I could have given more. I wanted to see if he identified with either of these. 


Do you think that you do not want to believe despite the evidence 
Begging the question.  Ancient writing is not necessarily "evidence".
Whether you admit it or not there is biblical evidence. Define evidence then I will give you some standard definitions and show you how they conform to that word. 


because you do not want to be accountable to God but want to do your own thing?
Dime-store psychoanalysis.  Do you disbelieve in karma because you don't want to be accountable to karma?
Just my perspective based on Scripture. I could have supplied the Scriptural verses.

I believe in the karma of Scripture, that our misdeeds will be judged in one of two ways; on our merit or on the merit of Another based on the grace and mercy of God. 


Do you think that your own mind holds the keys to life and you will discover them unaided by God?
(IFF) god made human minds (AND) god is all knowing (THEN) god knew what our minds would conclude before we were ever born.
Yet He lets you find out the insufficiency of your own mind. 

Yes, God knew. Thus, faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Even though you have a volition God knows what it will be, so what? You still choose. IMO, you choose what you like rather than what is good unless you hear God's message. Materialism is determined (how can it be anything but?) yet I am not a materialist. I don't believe in materialism.  


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Using the Ptolemaic dating system? What makes you think it is accurate?
I didn't intend to imply there is any limit or constraint on what or how you present things.  I'd just like to see the case laid out clearly so we all know the score.     

Do you think that you do not want to believe despite the evidence because you do not want to be accountable to God but want to do your own thing? Do you think that your own mind holds the keys to life and you will discover them unaided by God?
Can we deal with that at later date?

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Truth, certainty, knowledge of God as He truly is (provided I correctly interpret His revelation), hope for the future, victory over death, a relationship and intimate understanding of His character and attributes, Someone to confide in, a Protector, One who loves me and forgives me all my human faults, a new nature that is no longer hostile to God, an understanding of the human condition, His teaching on what is right and wrong, and so much more. 
So, confidence and hope and knowledge and a friend.

No atheist is "hostile to god".  Are you "hostile to Ahura Mazda or Marduk"?
Sure they are hostile. They do not give God the worship and respect He deserves as our Creator and Sustainer. They deny Him and construct idols to replace Him.

Yes, I am hostile to them since they are false idols that damage people who displace God with them. 


Please explain what is right and wrong?  Do you just follow the Levitical law?
I would reference the Ten Commandments. Is it wrong to murder, to steal, to lie, to covet, to worship things that are not God and displace Him with these things?

No, I do not follow the Levitical laws. They were set up for the purpose of leading people to Christ. It shows us that we cannot meet God's righteous standard nor meet His just and righteous requirements by our own effort. 

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

If you think you can be justified by following the law then what happens when you don't meet God's perfect and just standard?



What practical and actionable advice does this give you?

It teaches me to forgive others as I have been forgiven, to try not to hold a grudge, to offer mercy and grace to others as I have been shown grace and mercy, to be kind as I have received kindness, to put others first as Jesus put me before His own comfort and life, to invest in other as God has invested in me, and so on. 

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Using the Ptolemaic dating system? What makes you think it is accurate?
I didn't intend to imply there is any limit or constraint on what or how you present things.  I'd just like to see the case laid out clearly so we all know the score.
Okay, I'll set up the evidence for both views I find reasonable when I get time. I'm just about to go ou the door. 
   

Do you think that you do not want to believe despite the evidence because you do not want to be accountable to God but want to do your own thing? Do you think that your own mind holds the keys to life and you will discover them unaided by God?
Can we deal with that at later date?



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Is your last post referring to this?

I haven't seen this one here, and this place could use a couple of new topics. Unfortunately it seems like there are less theists here than atheists, so I'm not sure about the traffic this place will get. Here we go:

Let's say we take for granted that the universe is here as it is not because of any natural reaction or coincidence, but instead that it was created by a thinking agent. There is no real rational reason for granting this, at least none I've ever seen argued convincingly here or elsewhere, but let's skip that part, I'm saying, as an olive branch to the believer. It doesn't matter, then, if you subscribe to a big bang cosmology BUT it was started by a thinking agent, or if you think the world was created 10000 years ago. What I'm curious about is how does one justify going from "creator" to any god with a capital G. How, essentially, can you convince someone else that your version of the creator is correct, and by extension your religion is the right one, and theirs is INcorrect, and therefore the wrong one? 


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No.. i'm happy to just do daniel - there's more than enough there.

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Materialism is determined (how can it be anything but?) yet I am not a materialist. I don't believe in materialism.  
Substance dualism does not invalidate causality.

Even ghosts, spirits, souls, angels, and gods are either taking actions based on previous events (information/knowledge/experience) or are acting without cause (randomly/based on zero information/knowledge/experience).
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I do not presume that sola scriptura from other religions are true.
This is a thought experiment.  Try to imagine approaching another ancient text as if it were 100% true.
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Yes, I am hostile to them since they are false idols that damage people who displace God with them. 
How can you be hostile to things you believe are imaginary?  Where's your forgiveness and love for everybody?

I would reference the Ten Commandments. Is it wrong to murder, to steal, to lie, to covet, to worship things that are not God and displace Him with these things?

No, I do not follow the Levitical laws. They were set up for the purpose of leading people to Christ. It shows us that we cannot meet God's righteous standard nor meet His just and righteous requirements by our own effort. 

If you think you can be justified by following the law then what happens when you don't meet God's perfect and just standard?
I thought you said something about grace.  Doesn't grace fix everything?

What practical and actionable advice does this give you?
It teaches me to forgive others as I have been forgiven, to try not to hold a grudge, to offer mercy and grace to others as I have been shown grace and mercy, to be kind as I have received kindness, to put others first as Jesus put me before His own comfort and life, to invest in other as God has invested in me, and so on. 
Why do you think that christians are often the most vocal opponents of immigrant rights and minority rights and homosexual rights and slow to forgive repentant terrorists?
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Yes, I am hostile to them since they are false idols that damage people who displace God with them. 
How can you be hostile to things you believe are imaginary?  Where's your forgiveness and love for everybody?
Hostile in the sense that I don't like deception of falsehood. 

It is not the person who holds the belief I object to but the falsity of the belief itself. 


I would reference the Ten Commandments. Is it wrong to murder, to steal, to lie, to covet, to worship things that are not God and displace Him with these things?

No, I do not follow the Levitical laws. They were set up for the purpose of leading people to Christ. It shows us that we cannot meet God's righteous standard nor meet His just and righteous requirements by our own effort. 

If you think you can be justified by following the law then what happens when you don't meet God's perfect and just standard?
I thought you said something about grace.  Doesn't grace fix everything?
Not necessarily. It depends on what the grace is based upon. God offers His grace to us in His Son because the Son has paid the penalty for sin and also appeased God's justice for wrongdoing. So the perfectly righteous life Jesus lived as a human being meets the righteous standard of God and the sacrifice of Himself for those who will believe appeases the penalty God has set and we deserve for our sin. So the grace of God in Jesus Christ fixes our enmity and estrangement from God. In faith of what He [Jesus] has done, we are reborn [regenerated/born again] to the love and relationship with God.  


What practical and actionable advice does this give you?
It teaches me to forgive others as I have been forgiven, to try not to hold a grudge, to offer mercy and grace to others as I have been shown grace and mercy, to be kind as I have received kindness, to put others first as Jesus put me before His own comfort and life, to invest in other as God has invested in me, and so on. 
Why do you think that christians are often the most vocal opponents of immigrant rights and minority rights and homosexual rights and slow to forgive repentant terrorists?

Because we as Christians often do not practice what we preach or obey God and are too quick to judge others instead of giving them grace as we have been shown grace. 

The way I see it:

Immigration rights - I do not oppose immigration but it should be legal immigration. Criminals bring problems and immorality to a country.
Jerusalem and many cities in ancient Israel had walls for a purpose, to protect those within the walls from evil for the times, just like ours, had lots of evil. 

Minority rights - the minority should have the same rights as the majority, not special rights just because they are in the minority unless they have a disability and need additional care, IMO. 

Homosexual rights - the Bible teaches some things are wrong because God created humanity with a union of a male with a female in mind as a reflection of a greater truth. This relationship also produces offspring and God command humanity to go out and multiply. A homosexual relationship does not allow such a natural family unit. I believe the best relationship for a family is one that supplies both a male and female influence and example. 

Having said all that, I still recognize that it is not mine to judge whether a person is to be saved or not. My responsibility is to know what is right and wrong. If I meet a homosexual person I still recognize they are made in the image and likeness of God [although marred by the Fall] and deserve dignity and respect from me just like God has shown to me, but I do not see the sexual act between gay people as right per the biblical teaching.   

Repentant terrorists - I am all for second chances, just like I have been given one. That does not mean that a society should leave wrongful acts unpunished. Where would the justice be in that? But it is not my job to dispense justice but to show the love of Christ to every person in treating them with love and respect, but also to act justly. Now, I shamefully fall short of these qualities often. That is why I am so thankful for what Jesus has done for me - unmerited grace, something I do not deserve yet God mercifully gave!