Debate Mafia DP4

Author: AustinL0926

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Setup and Rules:


Match Order:

Today's matches are:

1. Earth - Whiteflame

Match Mechanics:

During the match, all living players may talk freely. Votes must be submitted privately - no in-thread votes will be counted. A match is decided by whoever has more votes - this person will unavoidably die.

The match will last 48 hours. Until the deadline, you may change your vote as many times as you wish. If you do not anticipate changing your vote, you can cast a FINAL vote, which cannot be changed. If enough players submit a FINAL vote to guarantee the result of the match, it will end early.

Living Players:

1. Earth
2. Whiteflame

Deadline:

Match 1 will end 48 hours from the first player post in the thread. If at least one living player requests it, I may extend it by up to 24 hours at my discretion.
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@Earth
@Lunatic
@Barney
@whiteflame
@Bullish
Finals
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@ILikePie5
@Savant
@WyIted
@Casey_Risk
@Owen_T
Debate ITT
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@Earth
Apologies for the delay. With only Earth and I left, I figured the game was over, but here we are. I had misgivings about Earth during his match last DP, but I was still pretty sure his match against Barney was town v. town. Now I know he must be scum, so I’m going to go back over the previous DPs and see what I missed.

Regardless, since it’s just the two of us posting this DP, Earth, I hope you’ll be a little more active. I get the impression that some people have just stopped participating altogether, which is necessarily going to affect voting, but we are the only ones who can provide any direction this DP and I don’t want to be sitting here talking to an empty room.
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Alright, going to try to keep this somewhat brief.

I didn't and still don't see much reason to sus Earth in DP1. He was early enough to claim a role and it was niche enough, not to mention specific enough to the setup of this game (there necessarily would be roles that can perceive what happened in the absence of vote counts and flips) to come off as townie. Even the fact that the flips would only be visible to him makes sense, particularly with the knowledge of Savant's role that automatically reveals all the people who were on his elimination publicly. It makes his role unverifiable, but it also means that having a 2X role that allows him to see everyone's votes isn't self-confirming and OP for a game like this.

Then we get to DP2. The main point of concern here stems from two issues: Earth didn't use his role or suggest using it at any point during this DP, and Luna used his Magnitude role on Earth, which should have granted him the a few extra votes if he was town. Despite being put in the driver's seat by Luna, Earth stated that he apparently wasn't even a part of one of the more consequential votes (Casey/Bullish) and didn't make efforts to further perceptions of him being town, particularly in talking about his role.

But that really only came out in DP3, where Earth revealed that his role had a daytime use, making it unstoppable by any night actions. This meant that, at any point during DP2, he could have clarified how his role worked and had an open conversation about how to use it with as many people as possible. Instead, he waited until DP3, used one of the shots of his role on a match that was least likely to give him relevant information and had one of the more easily guessed vote totals and placements, then told us how it worked, leaving himself with only one shot to use. I won't call him out for his second choice since the Casey/Bullish match was the choice all of the remaining players agreed he should take, especially given my own Sensor results.

I wasn't sussing the block he's claiming on those results, even if it is weird for scum to have the ability to block only part of the information he's receiving, and I found the numbers - 4 votes on Casey and 2 on Bullish - believable, since I would buy that at least a couple of town players just aren't participating anymore (and possibly not Owen, who just seemed to stop participating entirely when he was found out), meaning there are likely two scum is biasing the vote and town votes were just split. Looking back at this, what I don't like is Earth's statement that he wasn't on the elimination. He threw in the statement that he'd forgotten to vote only in response to Bullish later rather than with the vote totals, and considering he still had the extra votes granted to him by Luna at this point, his choice could have been very consequential. And he did all this knowing that I had already seen there were two scum on the lynch, which comes across as trying to avoid suspicion in the face of those lower counts for the Casey/Bullish votes rather than just being straight up about not voting in previous matches when I gave my result or even anytime early in DP3 when he started being active again.

So... yeah, not brief. I saw a lot of this as anti-town rather than scummy in DP2 and DP3, but the more I keep looking at it, the more scummy elements keep peeking through.
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@AustinL0926
Bro I posted a goodbye thread. That means goodbye. Putting my vote in in a minute based entirely on what a faintly recall from DP1 and DP2.
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@WyIted
Bro I posted a goodbye thread. That means goodbye. Putting my vote in in a minute based entirely on what a faintly recall from DP1 and DP2.
Sorry, I don't check the other sections of the forum very often. Thanks for putting your vote in, as well as your contributions to the site over the years.
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@whiteflame
I saw that you mentioned complaining about how I described my role last DP, and to be honest, I'm still baffled. I never contradicted myself. You aren't mentioning something important that happened last DP though. I wonder why.
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I mis remembered details last DP. I definitely feel like WF is stretching since he knows how I play. No matter.
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@Earth
I saw that you mentioned complaining about how I described my role last DP, and to be honest, I'm still baffled. I never contradicted myself. You aren't mentioning something important that happened last DP though. I wonder why.

I mis remembered details last DP. I definitely feel like WF is stretching since he knows how I play. No matter.
Yeah... wasn't really sure what you were getting at. I'm familiar with how you play as both town and scum, so yes, the fact that I didn't clock you as scum previously is part of the reason I've been townreading you most of the game. I'd still say you're behaviorally town even at this point.

I will note, however, that I never said you contradicted yourself. I said you left out information that could have been helpful sooner, namely the daytime use of your role. I was surprised because that's not how I anticipated your role working based on your initial explanation, and based on the other responses you received, I'd say that was a common sentiment.
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@whiteflame
I am the 2x vote revealer. At any point during the day or night, I can choose a match and receive the vote for that match. The justification is that the ballot contains the reason for decision along with a tally of the vote for that debate.
...I have no idea what you are talking about. This is my post I made on DP1. 
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@Earth
I am the 2x vote revealer. At any point during the day or night, I can choose a match and receive the vote for that match. The justification is that the ballot contains the reason for decision along with a tally of the vote for that debate.
...I have no idea what you are talking about. This is my post I made on DP1. 
I'll admit that you mentioned you can select a match at any point, but there's a difference between selection and receipt. I read that as you being able to select a match anytime, but receiving the results (and potentially having it blocked or manipulated) during the NP. Considering there's an RB in play, it's weird to have a role that effectively cannot be role blocked, but that scum somehow manipulated to limit the results you receive during the DP, meaning you have a role that scum, at best, have a very limited answer for.
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@whiteflame
I get that it might be a little confusing, but I immediately understood my role that I won't have to wait for my results, so your hang up on me is confusing. I have no idea what role mafia has, but it won't surpise me if mafia has some role that can redact votes. And I'll be honest, 
I read that as you being able to select a match anytime, but receiving the results (and potentially having it blocked or manipulated) during the NP. 
Why would you think this? If you were playing a mafia game as cop, and someone said something slightly scummy, and you wanted to cop them, you can just send your action in early. You don't need to wait. The 'day' in my PM clearly says I receive right away.
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@Earth
I get that it might be a little confusing, but I immediately understood my role that I won't have to wait for my results, so your hang up on me is confusing. I have no idea what role mafia has, but it won't surpise me if mafia has some role that can redact votes. And I'll be honest, 
I read that as you being able to select a match anytime, but receiving the results (and potentially having it blocked or manipulated) during the NP. 
Why would you think this? If you were playing a mafia game as cop, and someone said something slightly scummy, and you wanted to cop them, you can just send your action in early. You don't need to wait. The 'day' in my PM clearly says I receive right away.
There is no mention of when you would receive results in that message as far as I can see, and I'm honestly not sure why you'd think everyone else would just assume that you can receive your results shortly after asking for them. That's an unusual role. This is my first time seeing anything like it, particularly for an informational daytime role (seen lots of daycop claims before that were utterly bogus), but you make out as though I should have automatically known it would behave this way.

As for why I would think this, the answer is simple: I was roleblocked. I would have to function under the assumption that yours is the only role in the game beyond Savant's automatically "use on death" role that couldn't be prevented by that roleblock, and it would be particularly odd for Austin to give scum access to an RB when several people in the game have active roles that cannot be countered with it, particularly informational roles that can provide essential insight into two sets of votes.
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You keep saying how the claim is unusual, but this is an unusual game. Question, am I faking my role? If so, you have to admit I would take a huge gamble predicting who voted who, and thats honestly ridiculous. There are plenty of day roles that give results/actions immediately, but in a game where votes are anonymous, you raise the issue with my day use?
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@Earth
You keep saying how the claim is unusual, but this is an unusual game. Question, am I faking my role? If so, you have to admit I would take a huge gamble predicting who voted who, and thats honestly ridiculous. There are plenty of day roles that give results/actions immediately, but in a game where votes are anonymous, you raise the issue with my day use?
I’ll start by being clear about something: one of us is scum since the game is continuing, so yes, I’m necessarily going to argue that you’re it. The only question is the how.

I don’t know if you’re faking your role. You could have been given a set of fake claims to use for all I know. I agree the roles in this game are unusual, but even among that cadre, yours stands out for reasons I’ve already mentioned. If the issue is that you gambled on who voted on the match between Owen and me, that’s part of the problem. You chose a match with an obvious skew in terms of who would receive all the votes. Owen was obviously scummy, wasn’t defending himself, and was the easy target. It’s by far the easiest selection to predict. Your second choice could have been more telling, but we conveniently don’t have names for that one.

I disagree that what you have is anything like a common role. If you want to sus me, be my guest. It’s weird that, if you’re town, you haven’t started doing that yet.
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I'm sussing you perfectly fine. If I thought you were town, I wouldn't care about this game. I know you as scum and often you make leaps of logic, and you are making leaps trying to tie me to my role. Even with the half useful report I had for the second ballot vote, I don't think anyone raised a fuss about it being wrong. So the likelihood of my role being a fake claim is slim (well, its actually zero, but from your perspective it should.)
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Well, I've made my case. We'll let the votes decide it at this point, DP's done in about two hours.
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@AustinL0926
Post results 
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Earth was eliminated.

He was town, mafia wins.

Endgame up when I get home - the scum team were Owen, Bullish, and WF.

A note on balance: 3 v 7 and flipless seems rough for town, but I think it was balanced overall in view of two key straregies:

-If town collectively agrees to set aside their individual reads and vote as a block, then scum can't manipulate the result.
-All town needs to win is to correctly find two players as town by the end of the second DP. 

Town largely lost this because there wasn't enough cohesion in the day phase. Still pretty close though, I think if Earth had been more transparent about how he used his role, town might have had a chance.

Hope everyone had fun, I'll probably keep my setups more traditional in the future.
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@Earth
Why would you ever choose Owen/WF. That’s the stupidest match you could’ve used your role on.
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Also, I had 2 scum by the end of DP1.

Owen was confirmed scum cause scum chose him over me (regardless of what you believe my affiliation was). Though at the same time it makes no sense to kill a DP2 Doublevoter over a Rolecop lol. Also, how did Wylted die over Luna. Makes no sense.

I also had Bullish as scum cause mine and Luna’s role were direct counters. Idk how Earth didn’t know he had 3 votes. That doesn’t make any sense. And using his role on Owen/WF was the definition of retarded.
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GG everyone. I'll shut this one down and leave further discussion to the endgame.